The gun ban debate.

[Sato Ord]

My wife was reading a New England Medical Journal article that was absolutely anti-gun. They were spouting off facts like crazy, so she did a little research of her own. Basically what she has found is that they are right about one thing, many first time gun buyers (not sure how many) shoot themselves either on purpose, or by accident within the first year of buying a handgun. The report uses such statistics to "prove" the point that handguns should be banned.

What the report doesn't show is that people who know guns, have been raised with guns, and have been taught gun safety, as a rule, don't tend to shoot themselves nearly as often.

Such hysteria can flow both ways. Gun owners/enthusiasts will latch on to "facts" they find on the internet without confirming them because they feel threatened by the "antis". Antis will latch onto skewed statistics to "prove" their point.

Antis typically forget to mention that while crime statistics remain pretty much the same in number of crimes committed, violent crimes are less frequent in area were the perpetrator knows he is likely to be facing an armed person. Violent crimes against women are especially subject to gun control laws.

We may only be talking about a half a percentage point in some cases, but when it is your mother, wife. or daughter who is in danger, it counts, especially when you realize that half a percentage point is a significant number when the population is numbered in the hundreds of millions.

My thought on the whole gun ban debate is simply, look at England. They banned all handguns and the criminals do as they please for the most part. Does this mean that the average British citizen can't leave his house? No, but I bet the victims don't like being thought of as nothing but numbers in an equation, and I bet many of them wish they had had a means of defending themselves!

 

[Nightwing]

IF they wanna off themselves, it doesn't bother me. Rather they did it to themselves, than someone else around them.
These people obviously aren't mentally sound. NOBODY takes their own life without some form of mental compromise.
Tragic? Yes. Able to make me think guns are dangerous? No.
People are dangerous....

 

[svtruth]

Suicides

need to be taken out as a separate category and do not support NEMJ's stand. Those people were going to kill themselves. If guns did not exist they would find another way.
The group that would support their side would be new owners who accidently shot themselves.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Basically what she has found is that they are right about one thing, many first time gun buyers (not sure how many) shoot themselves either on purpose, or by accident within the first year of buying a handgun.

What is "many?"

As has been pointed out here, if someone wants to kill himself, he'll find a way -- gun or no gun.

As for accidental gun deaths, they've been falling steadily -- in fact, if you look at tabular data on accidental deaths, you find you're more likely to drown in a bucket than from an accidental gunshot.

Accidental deaths by gunshot are so rare they wouldn't be listed separately in the government statistics if the issue weren't so politicized.

 

[yokel]

How can a meaningful discussion or debate take place once you've reached a firm decision that you will never accept, you will not abide by, you will never acquiesce in domestic disarmament?

 

[tkendrick]

Statistics: I love them

All people over the age of five who died have drunk water, ergo water should be outlawed.

Set the right parameters, you can prove anything. And in most cases, if you can't prove it, just change the numbers til you can. The media never checks, and most don't know how anyway.

 

[Sato Ord]

tkendrick, I'm with you 100%.

That was kind of the point I was trying to make. It's like the old statistics class that opens with the teacher showing a correlation between the number of churches in a community and the number of bars. When you have more churches you have more bars. It's a proven fact in almost every city where drinking alcohol on premises is legal. Ergo, having more churches in a city leads to more drinking.

The point of that exercise, after much debate by those who are offended at their perceived attack against churches, is that such a correlation doesn't take into account that if a city has more churches it most likely has more population, and therefore, will naturally have more bars.

We can't take much of anything involving statistics, especially on the internet, at face value. However, almost every time I've heard or been involved in an argument about gun control statistics are tossed around like pillows in a pillow fight; from both sides.

73% of all statistics are made up on the spot by the person quoting them.

 

[tkendrick]

73% of all statistics are made up on the spot by the person quoting them.

Quite true. ALSO:

77.374% of all statisticians are either male or female. (3.79% + or - error)

 

[Sage of Seattle]

tkendrick, I'm with you 100%.

With an error rate of +/- 5%.

 

[mike101]

Point out to your wife that for decades, Japan had the highest suicide rate in the world. And for decades, guns have been banned in Japan.

 

[BridgeWalker]

IF they wanna off themselves, it doesn't bother me. Rather they did it to themselves, than someone else around them.
These people obviously aren't mentally sound. NOBODY takes their own life without some form of mental compromise.

Two comments:

One, you're wrong. While in the US a large proportion of people who commit suicide have a mental illness, a substantial number do not. You can find the exact proportions on the CDC's website.

Two, suicide and homicide almost never have anything to do with each other. Murder/suicides are exceedingly rare. Your comment implies that mentally ill people are inherently violent. That is not the case.

You would do well to become better informed before making further comments on mental illness and guns.

 

[rust collector]

I understand that male suicide attempts are more likely to succeed, and the reason is that men usually use a more effective and immediate method. I don't like to hear this, but that doesn't mean it's not true.

NEJMA, CDC and other public health concerns would like to reduce the number of successful suicides, and so would I. Unfortunately, these groups tend to take the position that gun control is the answer, and it seems to me that their approach is treating the symptoms rather than the disease. They don't seem to be able to timely diagnose the problem, so they draw a bead on an external factor instead of getting to the cause of the problem and treating it. This diverts resources from treatment to physical restraint, and it doesn't take an MD to figure out how successful such a strategy is likely to be.

Every suicide is a tragedy, to be averted in every practical way. Eliminating one means won't be effective, however, so long as kitchen knives, toxic or caustic chemicals, bridges, cliffs or automobiles are accessible. They haven't found the effective answer to suicide prevention, so they create diversions. Disengenuous at best.

 

[popeye]

I was in a local shop when an old man walked in looking to buy a gun for self/home defense. He lived in Gary Indiana so I'm sure he needed it. It soon became clear he knew nothing about guns. He looked like he needed a revolver to me. Instead, they sold him a S&W mod39. He couldn't read or write so they filled out the 4473 for him, and asked me to sign it as a witness. I don't know if that's legal anymore. I refused, so they found another guy who was willing. They were showing him how to load it when I decided to get the heck out of there. Talk about an accident waiting to happen.

 

[Big45]

Tell your wife that the debate has been over for awhile now. We won. As we all now know, it's coming down to the ammo.

 

[BridgeWalker]

I understand that male suicide attempts are more likely to succeed, and the reason is that men usually use a more effective and immediate method. I don't like to hear this, but that doesn't mean it's not true.

I think it is a lot more complicated than that. It is very, very difficult to assess actual suicidal intent. A lot of failed suicide attempts are not actual attempts but try-outs or practice or asking for help non-verbally. These seem to be more common among women. Male suicide attempts may be more likely to succeed simply because more men are making a real effort to off themselves.

I knew one woman who was hospitalized for trying to kill herself. She drove her car into a fence. If someone wants to kill themselves with a car, well, there are many more effective ways to do it. But she was troubled, she needed help, and she didn't know how to ask. It could be simply that women are more prone to that sort of try-out behavior than men.

 

[armoredman]

many first time car drivers (not sure how many) kill or injure themselves either on purpose, or by accident within the first year of buying a car.

Ban teen drivers!

 

[Sato Ord]

Point out to your wife that for decades, Japan had the highest suicide rate in the world. And for decades, guns have been banned in Japan.

She knows that. Believe me, the woman has a 173 IQ (actually tested and everything), and she has a lot of common sense (anyone who ever had to deal with a 90 day wonder butter bar knows that intelligence and common sense don't necessarily go hand in hand).

She looked up everything and is on our side of this issue. She even wrote a letter to the NEJM and informed them of the flaws in their study. Whether or not they will even listen is a different story.

By the way, she shot the new Bersa yesterday. It's her second trip to the range, and her first time firing an autoloader. All our friend said after looking at the groupings she had was "Don't piss her off".

She put most of the rounds in the kill zone on a half size silhouette, and those rounds that weren't in the kill zone would have ruined the guys whole weekend if you know what I mean. Why so many women aim low?

PS Armoredman, that's exactly what my wife said. She is furious that the antis want to disarm everyone to make the world a safer place but no one ever points out that, while few people are killed with handguns, thousands die every year from careless driving.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Suicides need to be taken out as a separate category and do not support NEMJ's stand. Those people were going to kill themselves. If guns did not exist they would find another way.

Agreed. Suicides acccount for a very large percentage of the firearm related deaths the anti's so love to cite (while alluding that every gun death is a homicide on a child).