The guns of England

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TT wrote: What constitutes a long barrelled revolver? 6"?
Sadly not … they have to have an overall length of more than 60cm. So a SAA Buntline is okay. In fact Uberti make a target version but the price is high.

Here is a link which has some pics of some Taurus revolvers - click here

I'm a member of our NRA. They are only really good for target shooting and have nothing like the influence of your NRA.
 

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Calibre44
Thanks for answering our questions. Do you have to pay for the licenses every year? Are they expensive?
 
Calibre44, Man that #4 is sweeeeet! Post some more SMLE porn please with dates, at least your ready to fend off the Hun! lol Sorry I'm a WWII junkie.
 
I'm British (living now in Texas) and can comment on the British mindset. Even before handguns were virtually banned in 1997, it crossed few British minds to obtain a gun for self defense. There just wasn't a culture of gun ownership in late 20th century Britain. My impression is that most Britons support the current tight restrictions on gun ownership. It was very influential that the Hungerford and Dunblane massacres were committed by legal gun owners. While most Britons believe that wider gun ownership might save some victims of homicide, they have the perception that a greater number of lives would be lost due to gun accidents and increase in homicides if guns were more readily available. So, on balance, most people are in favor of the controls.

Dun has it right, unfortunately. When I was working at the local hospital, I would try to get new shooters down at the rifle club. I had much less success getting 'Brits' down to the club than I did with Ozzies and other South Africans. I would get raised eyebrows in many cases, as if I was inviting them to do something unsavory.

Anyway Calibre44 has answered the licensing requirements pretty thoroughly. I will just add one other item: there is a difference between the certificate requirements for rifles vs shotguns with a cartridge capacity of three or less. For a rifle or an air-rifle that exceeds a certain foot-pounds threshold, you have to motivate in your application why you need the gun and the police operate in the role of seeing whether your application is reasonable or not. The onus is on you to prove why you need it.
For a shotgun certificate, they have to prove why you can't have it. A shotgun is therefore easier to get than a rifle.

When applying for the certificates, a fee is payable for each one (the Firearms certificate and the Shotgun certificate) however there is a discount for getting them at the same time and for this reason many first time applicants apply for both at the same time. IIRC the fee was £60 when I did mine.
On the Firearms certificate you have to specify an initial limit of 5 firearms that you would like to have on your certificate. For example you might say that you want a blackpowder pistol in .36, a Ruger 10/22 rifle, a bolt action .243, a .38/.357 lever gun and a long barreled revolver in .44
Unlike the licensing system in South Africa, where you have to identify by serial number a weapon that you have put a deposit on, the UK certificate can be granted before you have made a commitment to purchase. The certificate is updated after the purchase, by the person who sells the firearm to you, and then you inform the police that you have bought the weapon and you tell them all the details including the serial number so that they can update the database.

Some more points:

1) You don't pay annual fees for the license.
2) Wanting two similar rifles on the certificate will cause awkward questions when you have your interview with the police. They come and see your safe and find out a bit about you, possibly just in case you have a Nazi flag hanging on your wall ;) The way to get two similar rifles is to specify different uses such as one scoped and one iron sights for different competitions or hunting requirements.
3) There is an ammunition limit that is determined before the certificate is issued. This limit is per calibre and the limit may be different for each weapon type. A typical limit is 1000 rounds of .22 per purchase, and a limit of 1100 in possession. Large ammunition purchases are recorded on the Firearms certificate but are not required to be reported to the police.

Before I got my FAC here in London, I had to be a trouble-free member of the rifle club for a certain period of time (it was a few months requirement IIRC) and there was a telephone conversation between the club chairman and the firearms officer assigned to handle my application. The application required two referees, one of which couldn't be a gun owner and couldn't be associated with the club. Both had to be British citizens. I didn't approach any doctors ;)

My application went very smoothly for a number of reasons that I won't go into right now. I got my FAC in under two weeks, but other people have waited months. There is also variation according to which 'authority' you fall under. I'm in north London. Some south London geezers have had extended waiting times!
 
I'll tell you something funny about my interview with the police.
The guy came round and wanted to know a little bit about me and what my firearms-related interests were.
I said to him "As you can see on the shelf behind me, I've got a keen interest in gunshot wounds. Those text books there are all about gunshot wounds and the forensics associated with them. You don't have to worry though, I don't intend to add cases to the academic knowledgebase"

:)
 
I'm an American Mutt...... German, French, and English.

I wake up, Try to invade someone, Drop the rifle, and then outlaw it for fear it could hurt someone! :evil:




Nice enfields! (Conflicted as to which end I should view it from)
 
Of course all these wonderful UK gun laws have not lessened gun crime. Far from it, it has gone through the roof since 97.

The radical idea that the Brits didn't get is that by and large most people who want to use guns for bad purposes, really couldn't care less about bans. I know a Brit cop who said, well at least there are fewer around to be stolen. Cold comfort indeed.

But when you realize Britain is a socialist utopia it all makes sense.
 
It always amazes me that people think this way about guns, but few other areas of life.

Immagine making the argument that drugs would simply go away if we just banned them.

Or Speeding on the freeway doesnt exist, because its against the law....

Look at prohibition... by all accounts alcohol usage went up during prohibition.

So why do they really think the people inclined to break laws, are currently breaking any number of laws, will suddenly stop and decide to obey this one?
 
Hello all.Long time since I posted on here,but I've been looking at Mr Alan Westlakes website for one of his Britarm long-pistols,which are just basically oversized competition-pistols.Its interesting on how Westlake conmmented,about how the Home Office decieved him& tried to get the development of this gun,stopped.Please read on.It sickens me on how stupid people are.

Below are some details of the shamefull way the Home Office acted in trying to prevent the production of the Britarms Long Pistol.


Before I commenced work on resurrecting the Britarms as a Long Pistol, I contacted My local Firearms licensing department to ask their views on the pistols legality. They contacted the Home Office who could see no problems with the pistol. So I commenced work on making and testing the prototype Britarms Long Pistol.


When I sent my Firearms Certificate in for variation, I asked for something in writing from the Home Office, so I could tell my customers exactly what they should ask for, when requesting a variation to their FAC in order to be able to purchase a Britarms LP.


This prompted a change of heart from the Home Office who now "think" it may be a prohibited firearm under section 5 of the Firearms act.


Here are some of the relevant E mails


Email 18 May 2004 to Wiltshire Firearms Licencing Dept.


Further to our telephone conversations about the Britarms .22 Semi automatic Long Pistol.

Could you please confirm for me, what my customers should ask for, when requesting for a variation to put a Westlake Britarms 5 shot .22 semi Automatic Long Pistol, on to their FAC, in order to ensure that they are unlikely to have problems from other police forces.

Any references to relevant Home Office literature you could provide would also be of great help, should someone run into a less well informed firearms department in another county.

I look forward to hearing from you and thank you for your help.
Yours sincerely
Alan Westlake.


Email 3rd. June 2004 from the Home Office


Dear Mr Westlake,
I am sorry it has taken so long to get back to you, but I have been discussing the status of the Britarm with senior officers and a final view has only just crystallized.
Although the Morini Pardini, a long barrelled single shot target pistol with counterbalance arms was recently held by a court not to be a prohibited weapon, the judge was careful to say that the judgment applied specifically to the Morini and nothing else. His determination was based, in part at least, on the fact that the Morini's counterbalance arms were not easily detachable. He went on to say that "if other pistols with other types of rods came to be considered, then other considerations might apply".

In the case of the Britarm, one of these other considerations might be firepower. The Morini is single shot whereas the Britarm offers five rounds without recharging.

In view of this, the Home Office is minded to play this on the cautious side and conclude that, unless proven otherwise, the Britarm is a weapon prohibited by section 5(1)(aba) of the Firearms Act 1968 (as amended).

Of course, this is only an opinion. Ultimately, only a court of law can make a definitive judgement on the status of any particular firearm


Email 3rd. June 2004 To Home Office


Dear XXXXX,

It would be an understatement to say that I find your decision disappointing. I find it hard to understand the reasoning behind it. Before I spend time and effort on preparing a case, please ask your superiors to reconsider their decision and to take into account the enclosed picture. The upper firearm is a Ten shot.22LR Browning Buckmark Carbine, less the Woodwork, it is 27 inches long. The lower is the Eight shot Brno Kora .22 LR Revolver Carbine, less the stock. It is approximately 25 inches long.

If these are section 1 Firearms, how can you justify refusing the Britarms on account of Firepower? Furthermore, the pistol will be eligible for use in all the competitions that the NSRA are organising for the single shot Long pistols, and eligible for use in international Free pistol competitions. So you cannot say that there are no legitimate competitions for it. Also, after the 2004 Olympics the Rapid fire competition must be shot with .22 Standard Pistols. Our National Rapid fire squad would be able to train in this country with a Long Pistol, then use their Standard Pistol abroad.

If you can tell me how, in any way, this pistol does not comply with the Firearms Laws, I will see if it can be modified to comply. I thought I had manufactured a pistol that did comply and I will appreciate your advice on the matter.

I look forward to an early reply.

Alan Westlake.


Email 3rd. June 2004 From the Home Office


Dear Mr Westlake,

I was under the impression that my message of 3 June had answered your question. Our current opinion is that the Britarm is probably a weapon prohibited by s5(1)(aba) of the Firearms Act 1968 (as amended). That will continue to be our opinion unless and until a court of law decides otherwise.


Signed, XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


So there you have it. Perhaps if I had been a Bulgarian Business man things may have been different. As far as the Home Office is concerned I and the Wiltshire Police must fight it out in Court, please also note that Wiltshire Rate payers will foot the Bill, not the Home Office Budget. Oh, and me of course.


Sitrep on 10th September 2004


The Wiltshire Police have just refused to revoke my FAC in respect of the Britarms prototype. The force Armourer has inspected the pistol and it was taken to an ACPO meeting in the West Country. Nobody could say why it might be Section 5. So they say it is a Section 1 Firearm and I may have it on my FAC for Target shooting.


However the Home Office today reiterated their position that they "think" it "may" be section 5.I think the Moon may be made from cream cheese, but the facts indicate otherwise. The Home Office Ministers wishes don't necessarily make it so.


I am writing to all the police Authorities to ask if they will issue Variations for the pistol, I will let you know how I get on.In the mean time. If you want a Britarms Long Pistol, the price is £950.00.


Contact your local firearms office and if they will give you a variation, send me a £50,00 deposit and I will commence to make you one.I look forward to hearing from you.Alan Westlake.


Sitrep at 24th September 2004


On my return from a trip to France I found I have received a letter dated 15th September from the Secretary of ACPO Administration of Firearms and Explosives Licensing Committee.


He tells me that the Sub Committee will be meeting on 23rd September and "The Chair Mr. Simon Taylor, would like to take the opportunity to discuss issues concerning the categorisation of this gun at this upcoming meeting"


So, I am waiting to hear what the result of their disscusions has been. I will let you all know as soon as I hear from them again.Keep taking the pills, Alan.


Sitrep on 12th October 2004


I had a Phone call from one of the ACPO members asking me if I was building the pistols from scratch or if I was adapting Britarms Pistols to Long Pistols...... I explained that I was using the "unfinished" parts that the Home Office refused to compensate me for, (They would only pay for parts completed and ready for sale in quantities of ten or more) and that I had asked to be returned to me. I then manufacture any parts I am short of to make the complete "Long Pistol"


Did they really think that I would convert a section 5 pistol into a Long Pistol ? Don't they realise that its against the Law ?


Anyway that was on the 27th or 28th I can't remember precisely. I have heard nothing since.


I got fed up waiting for an answer, so I have started work on a Prototype Britarms .22 Semi Auto Carbine. I hope to have it completed for you to look at during the Trafalger Meeting at Bisley on 23/24 October 2004.


I will let you know the results of the deliberations of ACPO as soon as they tell me.


I must get some more pills. Alan.


Sitrep on 21/10/04


I received the following letter this morning.


Association of Chief Police Officers of England, Wales and Northern Ireland

Simon P. Taylor B.Ed, M.A., Dip.App.Crim., FCMI

Assistant Chief Constable for the Norfolk Constabulary

Chairman of the Administration of Firearms and Explosives Licensing Committee


Date 15th October 2004
Dear Mr Westlake,

Britarms Long Arm Pistol

Thank you for your letter concerning the Britarms Long Arm Pistol which has been previously acknowledged-and also the information you provided to ACC Adrian Whiting which has been considered. I write in my capacity of Chair of the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) Firearms and Explosives Licensing Sub-Committee and therefore represent the views of ACPO.

The categorisation of the Britarms Long Arm Pistol was discussed at the last meeting of the sub*committee following previous examination of the weapon. It is my considered opinion that this weapon falls within the parameters that define a section 1 firearm as long as the gun has not at any time been a section 5 firearm.

I have informed all police forces in England and Wales of this decision. I stress that this is an opinion and ultimately the decision as to the categorisation of this weapon lies with the Courts. Obviously, the Courts will only be called upon should a chief constable feel it necessary to make a local decision to challenge this opinion by refusing to add such a gun to a firearms certificate.If you have any further queries then please contact my staff officer, inspector Kris Barnard, on DD: XXXXXXXXXXor kkkkkk@kkkkkkkk.( DELETED SO YOU CAN'T SPAM THE POOR GUY, AS IF YOU WOULD THINK OF SUCH A THING ! A.W.)
Yours sincerely,
Simon P Taylor

ACC Norfolk Constabulary

Chair, ACPO Administration of Firearms and Explosives Licensing Committee


So there you are folks,


It seems that we can prevail in spite of the blatant mis-use of power by the Home Office, to try to prevent this pistol from coming into production in spite of it complying with the Law as written, not as wished it was written by the Home Office.

So then folks,the antis are trying to decieve again and let us remember that it was a Cheif Constable,who signed Thomas Hamilton,the Dunblane killers,license,because he was a friend to him and protected him,against having his firearms license revoked,for irratic& aggressive behaviour.By the way,cops shoot too in the UK& so should the cheif,as you they learn something,the boneheads.


They really are a bunch of XXXXXXXX arn't they.:):) Certainly right there Alan.I definately agree with that statement...LOL.

If you are interested in having a Britarms made for you, give me a ring on 01722 782432 or Email me at [email protected] and put in for a variation for a Britarms Long Arm Pistol.:):) :neener::neener: AW 1-HO-0

http://westlakeengineering.com/12001.html
I look forward to hearing from you.


Alan Westlake.
 
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Saxonpig says;" My family line is English (I actually have inherited titles and a great-great grandfather was the Sheriff of Nottingham although several hundred years after the Robin Hood story) and I find it hard to believe that the Socialized population in Great Britain today are the descendants of Harold the Saxon and William the Conqueror. But then, I can't believe the cowards currently populating the United States are the descendants of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, either."

Here in the States it matters not one whit what a mans heritage is, it only matters what a man does today. As Americans we are not bound by our history, we make our own lives. The only history we hold dear is the right that God has given us to be free men. We stand by our constitution as the instrument that insures our continued freedom until we need to re-instate our God given rights. This November might be our next chance to redirect our path to freedom and insure the union. Time will tell if America still has the courage to keep all men free.

Thanx, Russ
 
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