The Honorable Burden We Bear : A Shooter's Duty

[Gord]

Whenever I see a thread devolve into "my opinion about how I want to live my life is superior to your opinion about how you want to live your life" it makes my eyes roll.

Almighty, we've all got opinions. Just because you plan to go out of your way to stop a threat doesn't make someone else a coward for just wanting to get the hell out of there; just because you want to grab the wife-n-kids and flee doesn't make the guy who decides to stay behind a Rambo wannabe.

How could you morally justify running away, hiding, or just standing by while a gunman is shooting at innocent people?

Dude, maybe I've decided that it's in my best interest to duck and cover, rather than be A Hero™ by giving my life in the interest of being remembered as "that guy who got a couple shots off at the gunman before he got mowed down too." If you feel differently, feel free to trade places with me, and you can trade shots with the bad guy while I shop for deodorant and spaghetti noodles with your wife a few hundred miles away, okay?

 

[silverlance]

....

 

[GRB]

Tactical Ninja,

You say the thread has devolved because some have given their opinions, yet you feel free to give your own opinion. How absolutely marvelous a spin on things. This thread in essence is about one's opinion, so how has it devolved into anything? Yes we all do have opinions, and so far it has been kept fairly civil and nice, until you say it somehow devolved. Your thought process confuses me.

As far as adding comments about where you will spend time with amnother posters wife goes, that was crude, rude and absolutely uncalled for. You ought to be ahsamed of yourself, but alas that is my opinion!

Regards,
Gb

 

[wideym]

I would call someone a coward if they had the means to stop a crazed gunman and ran away. That doesn't mean have the wife and kids stand there and watch, send them out of harms way. There is a reason a sinking ships crew say women and children first, not every man for himself.

 

[Treo]

Bottom Line

I'm terribly sorry to those of you who want to call me a coward for protecting my wife. But W/ all due respect SHE is the one I love & my duty ( as I see it) is first and fore- most to protect her. I've actually been in Vaugn Marr & I can pretty much promise you that if you didn't have eyes on the guy when he STARTED SHOOTING ( reality check folks you aren't going to out draw a guy who already has the rifle in his hands) you wouldn't have had time to find him before he killed himself. remember the whole thing took about a minute

Now would one of you like to tell me how your going to get close enough to a guy who's packin' a rifle ( range 300 yards) W/ your ccw( range 7 to 10 FEET less when you consider the adrenelin dump you'll be experiencing) ? W/out getting yourself killed?
again you're taking on a lunatic who is TRYING to die on HIS playing field when he's got you waaaaaaay out gunned go ahead go be a hero , you'll be a dead hero.

ETA second reality check folks New Life Church ( not more than 5 miles from where I now sit) Jean Assam did NOT go hunting she posted up right inside the door and waited for homeboy to come to her.

 

[wideym]

A dead hero? Like the woman who vollentered to protect her church with a pistol? Against a rifle wielding gunman intent on killing as many of them before killing himself? Sometimes all it takes is someone fight back to make a bad guy re-think what he is doing.

The fact remains, she did not run away or cower behind a pillar in fear of injury or death. Instead she protected a church full of people. Many I will assume were not her husband or kids.

 

[Treo]

Jean Assam

Please read the post right above yours. Jean Assam did NOT go hunting she was inside a door way shooting at a guy who was coming RIGHT AT her . A guy who ended up killing HIMSELF I might add I don't THINK he took a single shot at her either?

 

[wideym]

You are missing the point. She risked her life vollentering to protect others. It doesn't matter what the tactical situation was, the fact she did it shows flies in the face of your argument.

 

[Treo]

Call Me A Coward

I'm sooooooo not going to debate tactics W/ you . Jean Assam believes that she was under Divine protection & that "for such a time as this she was brought into the kingdom" & I agree W/her.

there is a huge difference between ambushing someone in a place you know well & trying to hunt them down in an unfamiliar environment I've made my position clear if I could kill (ambush) the BG W/out UNREASONABLY endangering my life or the lives of my family I would do it. If I couldn't do so I wouldn't. I could live W/ either outcome & sleep like a baby at night.
QUOTE: Combat is fought with rifles not pistols.
Couldn't agree more

 

[wideym]

I won't call you a coward. You are not awarded valor awards in combat for being a coward, only by showing strength and tenacity in the face adversity.

Personally I think you would react well in a situation with a crazed gunman, whether he had a rifle or not. I'm sure you didn't stop and think of what could happen to you in combat and if bullets were coming your way in a dept store you would lay down some suppresive fire while your family escaped.

Combat is fought with rifles, but lone crazed gunman senarios are not combat, just an rare awful occurance. Sometimes I wish we could carry rifles around town like in Isreal.

 

[jpsimms]

I would have to agree with most of what has been said here, on both sides of this debate, I agree that it is first priority to protect your own family, But I personally could not be in such a situation without making my best effort to end that shooting spree. I would not call any man a coward who would sooner die than allow his wife to come to harm, but my situation being as it is, (single, and few family members) I would draw my weapon, move to a good position with decent cover and return fire, even if all that did was to draw his fire until he had to reload, And pray for the accuracy that I've practiced for. sure I may also be a dead hero, but if he had to waste somerounds on me, and armed citizen, rather than an easy kill, maybe I have done my part.

but that is only my humble opinion
thanks

 

[Titan6]

I don't know I can respect treo's self interested view point a lot more than somone who would say that they have my back and fall to pieces when I start counting on them.

QUOTE: Combat is fought with rifles not pistols.

??? What did they give me this pistol for?

 

[358minus1]

Tough topic

I think most of us would actually behave in a very similar manner when the SHTF. It depends on the actual details of the situation. If I'm in a mall and gun shots ring out from 100 yards away, my wife and I are turning and running in the opposite direction. If I'm in the mall, and someone pulls a gun in the checkout line in front of me and starts pointing it at random people around me, I engage immediately. There's an entire gray area in between those two scenerios.

I don't think any of us should be belittling each other over who would do what and when. There are so many variables that simply can't be captured in a few paragraphs on the internet.

That video that's been linked to recently (I think its from the Netherlands) showing the man on a city street repeatablely stabbing a women in the face and neck....

How many of us here, if carrying, wouldn't have immediately gone to her aid?

There is no way I could stand there, watch that, call 911 and be a good witness. I would have stopped him.

 

[Rich K]

My own moral code will not allow me to stan by and see an innocent harmed or killed. I've stepped in when a male was beating up a woman or a child. And yes I do know the difference between a spanking and a beating. My primary responsibility when CCW is to protect myself and my loved ones, but I also have a moral obligation to help protect those who cannot protect themselves. I won't live with the thought of " Icould have done something to help, and chose to run or ignore the danger instead." Just my .02.

 

[Mannlicher]

A shooter's duty? wow.

While some feel a need to codify everything, I don't. The only duty I feel is encumbent upon me as a shooter, is to not do anything stupid.
I am not a cop, don't want to be a cop, and am not going to get in the middle of other's problems.

 

[jgorniak]

What you say you'd like to do, and what you ultimately do when the time comes, are quite often two different things.

I'd not be so quick to judge a person on such purely speculative matters. No one knows exactly what they are going to do until push comes to shove, no matter how well they train or plan. Some will stay, some will go, and some will do some things they might never have imagined doing, whether positive or negative.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

I am my brother's keeper. Plain and simple. I didn't put 20 in the service and stop there. I will continue to serve this country as I see fit.
I will educate the uneducated concerning the safety and the use of firearms.
I will protect you if the need arises.
If I ever see a woman with a flat tire I will change it.
If I have the technical ability to repair, rebuild and stop overcharging of the elderly concerning the automotive trades I stop that as well.
My neighbors are always welcome to see me concerning advice and repair.
I will teach your youth how to shoot firearms effectively, safely and most important shoot them with confidence. I will teach you how to protect yourself. I will let you know that there are walks of life who don't give one iota about laws, others rights and will trample all over you without a moments notice and you should be prepared.

 

[XD Fan]

I think 358minus1 is right on this one. There are a lot of gray areas here that require individuals to exercise judgement or utilize istinct/training. Much ofthe arguement has been from vew points existing in those blac areas. Unfortunately, the black areas represent a small percentage of the situations that occor.

Also, U.S. SFC, I appreciate both your service and your philosophy.

 

[siglite]

I think a lot of this philosophical discussion is just smoke in the wind. The reality is, when stuff goes bad it goes bad quickly. You'll be making split second decisions. And I think anyone who feels they can accurately predict their actions in some of these situations has probably never been in one. Me? I'm a realist. I've had to draw defensively twice. Both were direct threats to me, and no one else. That was hairball enough that I wound up playing monday morning quarterback with myself for months. I know what I'd like to say I would do in the event that I was in a position to defend others, but the reality is, I don't know. I don't know because the decisions come at you so fast, and the circumstances have so many variables, that making such a claim... well... it just rings hollow with me.

 

[Treo]

Uncommon Valor

QUOTE: "You are not awarded valor awards in combat for being a coward, only by showing strength and tenacity in the face adversity."

Sounds nice on a citation, but here in the real world you get "awards for valor" for doing ( actually for being NOTICED doing)incredibly STUPID things while people are shooting at you.

For those who say "you can't know" I respectfully disagree, while in the Army I practiced crew drills by the hour, we actually went through the motions untill we could literally do it in our sleep. that's how we trained. When the real thing happened ( at least in my unit, 3/11 FA ) we followed the crew drill TO THE LETTER. I feel that I can say W/ certainty that if I'm ever in one of our "what ifs" I'm going to get DW to cover and protect her & I won't do ANYTHING else until that is accomplished.

 

[abrink]

I will remember that.

 

[Soybomb]

I want to know what you all think about it.

It takes the "I'm a sheepdog" thinking that some have and takes to a level that creeps me out even more. I feel no more burden, duty, or urge to recite a vow when I put a gun in my pocket than I do when I slide a cell phone into the other one.

The fact remains, she did not run away or cower behind a pillar in fear of injury or death. Instead she protected a church full of people. Many I will assume were not her husband or kids.

If life turns that way and it happens, well way to go, you did something great. This seems like a bunch of self-aggrandizing puffery to me. I've helped someone stranded on the side of the road before. I dont' feel the need to pen "The Driver's Burdern and The Motorists Duty." "I shall always be ready to aid a fellow motorists even on the foggiest of nights and shall be practiced with my well oiled lug wrench so that no tyranny of flats shall befall my fellow driver.

 

[silverlance]

It takes the "I'm a sheepdog" thinking that some have and takes to a level that creeps me out even more. I feel no more burden, duty, or urge to recite a vow when I put a gun in my pocket than I do when I slide a cell phone into the other one.

I see your point. But this isn't a vow, I think - it's more of a codification of beliefs; a "bill of rights" of being a true supporter of the 2a, if you will.

What is really sad here, though, is that all of this discussion focuses solely on one little, almost never-applicable tenet. In all likelihood, we will seldom if ever need to use a firearm to defend strangers.

But what about actively teaching others to shoot? What about not fearing to be politically outspoken? What about making sure that one is aware of what's going on in the gun world?

Those, IMHO, are much more important, relevant, and effective than #5 in support of the 2A.

 

[Treo]

Ok NOW You Can Call Me A Coward

QUOTE: "But what about actively teaching others to shoot? What about not fearing to be politically outspoken? What about making sure that one is aware of what's going on in the gun world?"

Sorry dude, but you are talking to the ORIGINAL greyman. I LIVE under the radar & I LIKE it that way. I live my life on a need to know basis & when it comes to my politics and my guns ....... you (generic) don't.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

After reading the comments, I still do not understand how it is that owning or carrying a gun somehow makes me obligated to play superman. My obligations to my fellow human beings do not change simply because I own a firearm. Of course, it apparently does for many of you and no doubt some of you are folks who will claim to be defenseless if you don't have a gun. I never understood that mentality either.

I like the notion of "saving the innocent" as it sounds to righteous. Given that I am also one of the innocent, who is going to save me? Does owning or carrying a gun somehow make me no longer innocent? What, am I now no longer innocent because I am guilty of being prepared?

Just curious, should I go into battle and work to save all those innocent people who don't bother to get self defense training and could not care less about me until their hour of need, are any of them going to take care of any of my medical expenses, liabilities, lost income, or look after my family if my act of heroism results in a significant negative impact on my ability to care for my family? Not likely.

I do have a duty to the innocent as does my wife and the innocent are our kids. Maybe after they are grown, I can play superhero again and return to the glory days of believing I could live forever and that I am invincible and be able to do so because nobody close to me is depending on me for their own survival.