The integration of shooting techniques

[Jeff White]

You not only have to integrate all your shooting techniques, you also have to integrate hand to hand techniques with your shooting techniques. Unless you are in the military any deadly force encounter is likely to start at hand to hand distance of not actually start with hand to hand.

The best integrated gunfight training in the world isn't going to do you much good if you don't know enough hand to hand to open a reactionary distance so you can employ your handgun. It's hard to shoot from retention if your opponent is trying to pin your arms to your sides or has taken you to the ground. You may have amazed all the tier one instructors at your favorite shooting school with your natural ability to draw and make A zone hits in a fraction of a second, but you have to have enough space between you and your attacker to actually do that.

Do you routinely talk to people from a couple steps away using an interview stance? Or do you routinely allow people inside your bubble. One way to beat the startle response panic reaction is not to put yourself in a position where you can't react.

Kor,
I think that everyone should train on both offensive and defensive tactics. Once the fight has started, you need to be able to go on offense to win. There are a lot of shooting situations where the only way to prevail is to see the threat coming and react first. This is equally applicable to police and military shooters and civilians. Break contact drills are necessary in some situations, but in many situations, once contact is made, you need to end the fight by beating your opponent. This will often require what would be considered offensive tactics. Once the decision to use deadly force has been made, don't hesitate, win the fight.

I think you're getting into mindset with your question. I don't think it's ever a good idea to go into a fight thinking I'll go this far and it will be over because I'm a civilian. You may have to go on offense to end the threat. When the fight starts, you should think about winning it. If that means moving toward your attacker(s) don't hesitate. If you do you may lose. And that carries a heavy penalty.

Jeff

 

[7677]

There are other componants to fighting as well:

MINDSET:

I have found that Mindset is the most important element to surviving. Mindset is more then being mentally capable of taking another humans life as the lack of awareness of ones surrounding will get you killed. In the LE community, the failure to recognize threats is the biggest killer. Being the best shot in the world doesn't do you one bit of good if you never see it coming. Real world incidents never occur when you want them to or in conditions that favor you. When a person goes to a shooting competition they know it is draw and shoot and there are no surprises. The targets do not move toward you and ask for a light and then suddenly attack you. Targets do not shoot back nor do they find you like they do it the real world at the moment when your head is planted in your rear end. Try shooting after you have been physically assaulted and punched in the nose or a face full of OC, and/or in a dark environment. It changes the whole game. Mindset includes the determination to win, conditioning to mind to scan for threats and threat identification. Once a thread is identified the person has to employ appropriate tactics to deal with the threat which includes making the appropriate determination to disengage or engage.

From researching deadly force incidents, the problem in most cases does not have do with knowing what you should do but actually having the discipline to continually do what you should be doing. Complacency is what gets most people into bad positions, which could have been avoided. This is the reason why I continually talk about threat identification so much.

Mindset comes in three stages, the mindset not to become complacent, the mindset to train and become proficient with weapons and H2H tactics and the mindset to actually use the tools you possess to defend yourself and if necessary kill others. Once you done these three steps you are ahead of most people.

FIGHTING PLATFORM:

The platform should be learned in its most basic form and everything should be just an extension of a punch. You simply look where you want your punch to land and your mind does the rest. Knives, Swords and Firearms either extend the range of your punch and/or its lethality. This fighting system should flow from the fighting stance to the use of weapons.

MOVEMENT:

Movements is good thing however movement for the sake of movement is not.

Movement should be used to gain a position of advantage ie: get off the line of attack, get to cover and/or to close in. In short, you want make it hard for the enemy to hit you and to end up in a place where the enemy cannot shoot you and you can shoot them if they are not neutralized during the time you are moving.

One has to be well balanced and a lot of things have to work in concert to be successful with self defense.

People do not have to consciously think about walking down a hall way or even pointing their finger. The conscience mind starts the procedure and the sub-conscience mind takes over and does many tasks simultaneously as you walk or raise your finger to point at something. Techniques need to come as second nature and done without conscience thought throughout the task.

The circumstances and the surrounding environment will dictate which technique a shooter will employ. This information is taken into by the mind and the mind makes these decisions in a split second. This environmental/target information should be processed as the shooter walks down the street. One needs to be aware of their surroundings to start their plan of action. Those of us the have spent extended time in hostile zones do this without thinking about it. The plan is constantly being put together as I walk down the street and while I’m looking for threats this is where the term “gut feeling” comes from and treat everyone with respect but always have a plan to kill everyone comes from. Your gut feeling is your sub-conscience mind picking up on something your conscience mind has not processed. This then kicks in your plan action you should already put together in your mind. Those who do not have a plan of action either panic or freeze.

This gets us to dealing with the threat and distance is the main factor along with action versus reaction usually dictates the response. We must always remember that distance buys time and time and distance buys options. This is the reason why threat identification is so important along with having a plan of action is so important. In most cases there is only one or two right choices to deal with the situation.

In extreme close quarter’s battles, a person commonly has two options, they must get the gun off their centerline with H2H techniques or move their body off line of the weapon and/or both. Then comes the decision to continue with H2H or go guns. Which is right or wrong depends on several factors such as the size and number of your opponents.

As the distance increases, moving off line is the way to go. In reactionary situations outside of gun grab ranges movement is necessary and used to get off the line of attack and to buy you time to get your gun in operation. Outside of gun grab and H2H range, I teach moving left or right at 45 degree angle forward because of the speed one can get off line and the difficulty your opponent has with tracking you.

The only thing I stress is the path you take is not set in stone and you can change your path/direction at any point you choose. I also teach a parallel route in from the flanks and I want to pass next to my opponent and end up behind him. I have found that rushing straight in does has its own set of drawbacks. However, with that said, a majority of people will become locked on the target and will move straight at the target in the heat of the moment. For those that don’t moving in parallel track increases the difficulty of your opponent’s shot.

Dynamic movement is not running or sprinting. It is faster then walking but slightly slower then running. Dynamic movement is done with a lower base and larger steps are used to decrease upper body from bouncing.


MAKING THE SHOT:

This is where things differ with me. I'm all about performance not about style. Once the determination to use point shooting or sighted fire are made it makes no difference if you use Iso, mod Iso, Weaver, Modern Technique or FAS, Quick Kill, Quick Fire or anything else as long as you can make the shot.

 

[shooter503]

Some very good information in the last few posts.

Here is what I see as the practical problem. Kor makes some good points. Although we would like to standardize training to a high level for everyone who carries a firearm there is indeed a fundamental difference between what we can do for the firearms professional and the person who carries for self-defence. We can expect the professional to gradually harden himself againt the startle response, it is unlikely this will ever happen to the average CCW. We can train the professional in all firearms techniques but is it possible, or even wise, to try to do this to the CCW?

I think we can leave the training of professionals to their own organizations although we should have a lively interest in their training techniques so that we can test and possible utilize them. (I do, of course, recognize that many posters here are involved in both professional and civilian training). What do we do to help the civilian?

Many civilians want no more training than will enable them to qualify for some sort of concealed weapons permit. They can be encouraged to take more advanced training but, unlike the professionals, the choice is theirs.

This leaves us with the group of civilians who wish to improve their self-defence skills. My feeling is that they should be transitioned immediately to some form of close-range, defensive, technique. Taking into account likely trouble scenarios this means:

1. Being aware and avoiding problems.
2. If 1. does not work maintaining manoeuvering room to be able to use a firearm instead of getting into a contact sport.
3. Being able to draw a firearm rapidly and in a manner designed to produce the most shock effect on the baddy.
4. Being able to fire rapidly with sufficient accuracy to stop the attacker or at least to buy time to perform alternative actions such as retreat.

The fundamental requirements are really quite simple. The devil is in the details. For example, what clothing does your trainee wear when you are teaching the draw? Do you let him use an exposed gun when he is CCW? Do you make him practice drawing from under a heavy leather jacket as well as an open summer shirt? Do you have different techniques you teach for different situations? Do you teach only a quick draw or do you also teach techniques that hide the actual draw behind "harmless" body motions such as a bout of coughing? I am sorry if this example seems trite but the most tense part of any civilian gun usage could be the draw itself. We know the trainee can hit but can he actually bring his firearm into use when already in a threat situation?

Finally the startle reaction. For a civilian this can only be overcome by reflex training. The trainee must have his reaction to a threat so ingrained that the defensive action is taken before the startle reaction can take control. It can be done. For example, if you are driving a car and a potential collision occurs you take evasive action first and the shock reaction sets in later after you realize how close you came to death. The important thing is that you took evasive action automatically before startle reaction could destroy your thought process.

 

[7677]

THE TUELLER DRILL and CLOSE QUARTERS KNIFE

The Tueller Drill…sometimes good ideas get lost in fame. The Tueller drill was designed to show officers that a suspect with a knife that was within 21 feet of them was deadly threat and that officers should have their weapon drawn in these situations. The Tueller drill also demonstrated that if an officer did what they were previously taught to do…stand and attempt to speed draw the suspect with the knife would be able to get to them before they could draw and fire.

The problem I currently see is when doing the drill the shooter is ready for the drill and moves the second the suspect moves and suspects then tracks the shooter. The object of the drill is to teach shooter how to counter a suspect with a knife. The way I was taught was to allow the suspect to close just like they would in a real situation and when he gets to about 10 feet from you sprint forward at approximately 45 degree. You make a conscience thought to move your feet first and then draw your weapon. You should pass the suspect just out of arms reach even if they attempt to track you. Your draw should be accomplished prior to passing the suspect and you shoot them just before and as they pass and if you miss by some chance, you circle around behind them.

However, reality says that most incident do not include knife wheeling chargers from a distance. Those that want something from you are not going to banish their knife at 21 feet especially the lazy out of shape felons. It then becomes a contest of who is faster.

The real threat is when a person with a knife gets in close. There are usually two venues the knife is out and you don’t see it or the knife is drawn when in close. Things do not happen in a vacuum and bad guys with knives and guns do not suddenly appear. This is the reason why situational awareness and threat identification are so important.

Most encounters include the suspect wanting something and/or indicating both verbal and non-verbal indicators that they want to cause you harm. The rule to remember is if they can hit you, they can stab you …so distance is your friend.

If it is a robbery at knifepoint, then they will instruct you to do things and it is at this point you have the opportunity to counter the suspect with H2H techniques or drawing your firearm and shooting them. Bullets do not instantly stop determined suspects so be prepared to fire until they drop and to employ H2H and move while you firing to keep them from stabbing you.

It is hard to counter someone that wants to simply kill you. Especially if they make it close with the knife drawn and undetected. This will most likely, resemble a prison shanking. The only real counter once it has begun is H2H techniques.

 

[Leadbutt]

Nicely done boy's

DaveJames

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Ditto!!!
Leadbutt..when can we get you to NY?

 

[7677]

The One Handed Draw Stroke,
The basic draw stroke that the majority of point shooters use was actually laid out in Fairbairn and Sykes book “Shooting to live”. However, in the book the draw stoke is not discussed it was assumed that people would pick up on it by doing the positions outlined in the book. The book teaches what I called a “low” draw stoke compare to the “high” draw stoke that is taught with Quick Fire.

The Master Grip,
The first step of the draw is the master grip. The master grip is a firm grip of the firearm. (the master grip changes depending on which type of holster is being used)

Half-Hip,
After the master grip is attained the weapon is drawn to the half hip position. The best-written explanation of this technique was by Dave James with Elbow Up/ Elbow down (EU/ED). This technique gets the out of the holster and on the target extremely fast. The inside of the elbow is driven into the side and when the shooter feels it hit his side he fires. (Now there have been debates on what “the side of the body” is and depending on the shooter the side can be the side of the body on the floating ribs or forward to the front of the body on the ribs above the stomach it depends on the size of the person and what they feel comfortable with.) The exact position of EU/ED largely depends on which point shooter you look at as Jelly Brice’s EU/ED position was different then Bill Jordan’s and the list goes on. The next consideration for the position of the elbow is the distance to your enemy. In Extreme close quarter situations elbow is going to be further back. Note: you might even find yourself in ¼ hip position.

Three-Quarters Hip,
Once you are in the ½ hip (EU/ED) you transition to ¾ hip. The gun is brought up under your dominate eye with the elbow bent. The gun should be under the eye about 6 to 8 inches with the gun in your peripheral vision. NOTE: the pictures in Shooting to Live show the gun in the exact centerline of the body, however this is true for people with most cross dominate eyes but most people with dominate eyes on the same side as the shooting hand bring it under their dominate eye.

Point-Shoulder,
After the ¾ hip the shooter transitions to the point shoulder. The Point shoulder comes from Rex Applegate’s book “Kill or Be Killed. The “point shoulder” position which the strong arm is thrusted out just under the line of sight under the dominant eye.

Convulsive Grip,
A convulsive grip is used while shooting all of these positions. The convulsive grip limits how far the arm can be brought up with the point shoulder position. It also keeps the gun from bouncing around during rapid-fire drills while you transition though the above positions during the draw stoke.

The Zipper,
The zipper the act of firing throughout your draw stoke and leaving a vertical line of bullets on the target. How far you make it through your draw stoke depends on how are your enemy is from you. The entire zipper drill is the following the first shot is taken at the EU/ED position and the shooter continues to rapid fire through the ¾ hip and point shoulder, which should place the rounds in the head.

Eyes,
The gun should follow you eyes not your eyes following the gun. You should focus on a point COM and once you take your fist shot (EU/ED) shift your focus to you ending point and the gun with follow the path up the body from just below your first point to your ending point.

The Gun,
At first practice shooting at 3 yards when you reach each position in the draw stroke. During these drills it is important that you look COM take your first shot (EU/ED), look at the target’s neck (3/4 hip), take the next shot, Then between the target’s eyes (Point Shoulder) and take the third shot. Once you are hitting the points you are focusing on then attempt a double tap at each position. When you get that down, attempt to shoot throughout the entire draw stroke. You should be able to get 4 to 6 rounds on the target. After you got this down then move to 5 yards and start over again. Remember, if you groups start to open up during rapid fire it is because your grip is too lose and you need to make it tighter. My grip starts at firm and becomes firmer “tighter” the faster I shoot my gun.

 

[shooter503]

Good to see this thread back.

7677, I often wondered why "Shooting to Live" emphasized the position of the pistol on the body centerline with the wrist cranked to the right (for a right handed shooter). It seems awkward. Then I realized something, if I favor my dominant eye instead of the body centerline I tend to close the non-dominant eye. If I use the body centerline position I use both eyes naturally. Remember, F&S are not teaching sight shooting at this point so a full view of the frame of the pistol is more important to their technique.

Is this just me or do others experience this same effect? F&S certainly did not recommend the centerline position without good reason but their book tends to be brief on the "whys" of their instructions. Perhaps they had discovered an important aspect of human reflexes and did not explain it to the reader.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

F&S recommended keeping the pistol in your centerline so you will shoot where you look.
Cranking the wrist to the right?
Just hold the pistol in a two handed Isoc position.
Now let go of the weak hand....and that all there is to it.
F&S had to counter the bullseye stance which had the wrist in line with the forearm, but that is no longer an issue.

 

[shooter503]

Here is the original text of "Shooting to Live". This section refers to initial recruit training.

(a) On taking the pistol in the hand, we recommend, as an aid to accurate pointing, that the thumb be fully extended and pointing forward in the same plane as the pistol barrel (Fig.1).

(b) Stand square with the target, gripping the pistol now as if it weighed twenty or thirty pounds, pistol arm straight, rigid and across the body (Fig. 2). Bend the hand slightly to the right, to bring the pistol exactly in line with the vertical centre-line of the body (Fig. 3).

(c) Raise the pistol (pistol arm still rigidly straight and pivoting from the shoulder), keeping it exactly in line with the vertical centre-line of the body until it covers the aiming mark on the target (Fig, 4). Both eyes are to be kept open and the recruit simply sees the target surrounding his pistol, making no attempt to look at or line up the sights, or to let the master-eye control the aim.

(d) Immediately the aiming mark is covered, pull the trigger and lower the pistol to the position shown in Fig. 3 (the low “ready “ position).

Notes
Paragraphs (b) and (c) in conjunction with Fig. 4 reveal a deliberate attempt to eliminate conscious control by the master-eye. Instead, the aim is controlled by the combination of the square stance and the manner of holding the pistol, i.e. in the centre of the body, with the hand bent over to the right, elements which were employed unconsciously in the experiment on page 6. The mastery of this combination is all that is required for effective aiming at short range, .....

Anybody care to comment on this technique versus "modern" techniques. The practical experience of these men almost certainly exceeds that of any current firearms professional.

The first things to note would be one handed shooting, no sights and virtually an isosceles stance.

 

[7677]

Shooter,
I teach it the way that Matt described it...Just hold the pistol in a two handed Isoc position. Now let go of the weak hand. And, to make sure the students keeps the weapon in the center I also do what Matt showed me I have the student close their eyes and bring the gun straight up and it should touch their nose.

What I have noticed from doing repetitions in from of the mirror is that no matter how hard I try my hand ends up under my dominant eye at some point during my practice sessions so I no longer try to fight it. However, we must remember that Fairbairn and Sykes were teaching officers that were taught the bullseye stance. Like you pointed out by placing the weapon in the centerline keeps both eyes open and the student cannot cheat and use their sights without moving the gun or their head. Plus indexing off of the centerline of body will result in hits if the body is squared up towards the target. This alone gets them hits on the paper which moves us to:

(c) Raise the pistol (pistol arm still rigidly straight and pivoting from the shoulder), keeping it exactly in line with the vertical centre-line of the body until it covers the aiming mark on the target (Fig, 4). Both eyes are to be kept open and the recruit simply sees the target surrounding his pistol, making no attempt to look at or line up the sights, or to let the master-eye control the aim.

(d) Immediately the aiming mark is covered, pull the trigger and lower the pistol to the position shown in Fig. 3 (the low “ready “ position).

This is exactly how I teach my students eye/hand coordination. This drill allows the student to align their line of sight (the focus point on the target) with the point of impact (point the rounds hits the target). After the student gains the necessary skill to make hits on the point they are focused on without the use of sights I no longer check to ensure the weapon is in the centerline.

 

[brownie0486]

Very good posts and explanations of various elements of the skills sets 7677.

Brownie

 

[shooter503]

What I have noticed from doing repetitions in from of the mirror is that no matter how hard I try my hand ends up under my dominant eye at some point during my practice sessions so I no longer try to fight it. However, we must remember that Fairbairn and Sykes were teaching officers that were taught the bullseye stance.

I was hoping someone would pick-up on the "dominant eye" aspect. Like you 7677 I can convince myself that I am standing square to the target and using both eyes to frame the pistol but, when I close each eye alternately, I find my dominant eye has taken over and the pistol is actually slightly angled across my body. Makes no practical difference but it shades a true isosceles stance towards a Weaver stance.

I think this is the reason for F&S's comment

"Paragraphs (b) and (c) in conjunction with Fig. 4 reveal a deliberate attempt to eliminate conscious control by the master-eye."

They realised the master eye will always try to take over - their intent was to reduce "concious" aiming with the master eye.

There is a lot more sublety in F&S's technique than is explained in their text.

By the way:

However, we must remember that Fairbairn and Sykes were teaching officers that were taught the bullseye stance.

This is not correct. The vast majority of F&S's recruits were local chinese personell who probably had minimal contact with firearms and certainly almost no contact with 1911s.

 

[7677]

This is not correct. The vast majority of F&S's recruits were local chinese personell who probably had minimal contact with firearms and certainly almost no contact with 1911s.

You are correct that new chinese recuits would not have firearms training but the department was established prior Fairbairn and Sykes with British officers that were taught in bullseye shooting. And, IIRC the majority of the chinese officers carried the 1903 not 1911.