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The new & recounted bust - after thread lock - my story

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Publicola, I follow your point, and from an emotional standpoint I even agree with Bill St. Clair. However, the supporting arguments you bring up are not of the police but of legislatures and prosecuting attorneys.

Some of my attitude, of course, stems from the way the Texas legal system functions in regard to self-defense as envisioned by the "rational and prudent person" argument. It supports my original statement--which is part of why I like living there. :)

Art
 
I think that what Ahenry is trying to say is that it seems today that a number of (younger?) cops are actually TAKING THE JOB just so that they can join in the "struggle to survive".
Perhaps so in part, but even more so is the emphasis that is placed on “making it home†throughout an officers training. Officers are told over and over and over again that their number one job is to go home to wife and kids. When such a philosophy becomes the focus of law enforcement, a shift in views regarding the proper approach to a given scenario occurs. While undoubtedly the end result is fewer officers are killed in the line of duty, just what is the cost to the very society its their job to protect?
 
Perhaps so in part, but even more so is the emphasis that is placed on “making it home†throughout an officers training. Officers are told over and over and over again that their number one job is to go home to wife and kids. When such a philosophy becomes the focus of law enforcement, a shift in views regarding the proper approach to a given scenario occurs. While undoubtedly the end result is fewer officers are killed in the line of duty, just what is the cost to the very society its their job to protect?
An Officer who doesn't make it home isn't much good to society. An Officer that doesn't make it to the next call isn't much good to society.

2 cents
 
The problem is militarization.

Look how many threads were started on TFL about police militarization -- none of them good.

The Militarization of American Police

The militarization of the police?

Militarization of police (no-knocks, etc.) Part 2

Militarization of Civilian Authority

Militarization of Civilian Authority (II)

Militarization of law enforcement - web site resource

The resource mentioned in the above post

In addition, a search on TFL for "militarization" returns 64 results.

A search on THR for "militarization" returns 52 results.
 
Concerning militarization of the police, I ran across an interesting quote attributed to Jeff Cooper on the Brady Bunch'es NRA Leaders site (lots of other good quotes there, worth a look). I can't find this quote at Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, but those archives only go back to June of 1993. He does talk about "ninjas" in the July 1993 edition. Anyway, here's the quote. Whether it's Mr. Cooper or not, I definitely agree with it.
Already a couple of the faithful have sent in checks for a foundation memorial to the innocents who perished at the hands of the ninja at Waco. ... I have been criticized by referring to our federal masked men as "ninja" ... [L]et us reflect upon the fact that a man who covers his face shows reason to be ashamed of what he is doing. A man who takes it upon himself to shed blood while concealing his identity is a revolting perversion of the warrior ethic. It has long been my conviction that a masked man with a gun is a target. I see no reason to change that view.
 
Officer kills armed man outside VFW

A Fort Wayne police officer, responding to a reported fight, shot and killed a 20-year-old man early Saturday after he raised his gun at the officer, police said.
Police believe Derrick C. Ford, 20, of Fort Wayne, may have shot and wounded another man just before the officer opened fire.

Ford died at the scene after he was shot by officer Mark Gerardot outside the Veterans of Foreign Wars post at 2441 Winter St. just before 3 a.m., police said.

The Allen County Coroner's Office said Ford died from a gunshot wound to the chest. Toxicology tests are pending. His death was ruled the city's and Allen County's first homicide this year.

"It was a very chaotic situation," Police Chief Rusty York said. "It's unfortunate that officer Gerardot had to use deadly force, but I think the officer's use of a deadly weapon was appropriate."

Just before Ford was shot, Cheynne J. Williams, 23, of Fort Wayne, was wounded by gunshots from within a crowd leaving the VFW, police said. York said investigators believe Ford shot Williams, who was taken to a hospital in serious condition. The number of gunshots that may have hit Williams was unclear Saturday night.

Gerardot was patrolling the area based on information about a possible fight at the VFW, police said.

Upon seeing Ford with a gun, Gerardot left his vehicle and repeatedly ordered Ford to drop the weapon, police said. Ford refused to obey and began to walk away before suddenly turning around and raising his gun at Gerardot, police said.

Gerardot then shot Ford, police said.

Nearly a hundred people were leaving the VFW, York said, and many were on the street.

Police have interviewed a number of witnesses, York said.

Information gathered suggests the shooting was inevitable to protect the life of Gerardot and lives of others on the street, York said.

Police promptly reported the shooting to the local NAACP, said the Rev. Michael Latham, president of the organization. Ford was black.

Ford's family also contacted Latham and expressed concerns about the shooting, Latham said. He said he would keep pushing police to release information and encourage witnesses to come forward to help the investigation.

"We have deep concerns, as a young man was killed," Latham said. "At this moment, we don't have information or reason to believe procedure was not followed."

Gerardot will be placed on paid administrative leave for at least a week - standard procedure after officer-involved shootings, York said.

Fort Wayne police, the Allen County prosecutor and the coroner are investigating.

Gerardot joined the police force in December 1997. He is a patrolman and member of the Emergency Services Team, also known as the department's special weapons and tactics team.

Ford was charged last October with possession of cocaine and false informing, according to felony arrest records. A state database showed Ford did not have a gun permit as of last May.

article
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I guess that sometimes a person walking around with a gun can be a threat to Police. There was no call or report of a shooting or a man with a weapon. I wonder what would have happened if the Officer has considered that the man was just a good guy (or a victim who had armed himself) and just walked up to him.............
 
Now, TBO, consider that the officer was patrolling the area because of a report of a fight. Consider that it's very late on Friday night ("early Saturday morning") and at a VFW. Folks buy beer and booze at VFWs. Some buy too much.

In such circumstances, any officer responding to reports of a fight would have to be very naive to take it for granted that no weapons are present nor would be or have been used...

Seems to me the officer was mentally prepared for the actual situation he encountered.

Art
 
I guess that sometimes a person walking around with a gun can be a threat to Police.
I guess that sometimes police can be a threat to innocent people, as well. What's your point?

I guess this thread has morphed from its original line of thought, which is what happened to labgrade after he was disarmed. I don't think anyone (including labgrade) thinks that the deputies were in error in taking away his firearm. But the abusive treatment he received afterwards was totally out of line. Based on his account, do you think the deputies acted in a professional manner?
 
Thread%20Has%20Been%20Hijacked.jpg
 
Actually I disagree that Labgrade should have been disarmed. The mere presence of a weapon is not justification for disarmament. It should take an action or the threat of action to justify disarmament.

& TBO,

http://www.ardmoreite.com/stories/020899/new_blueLights.shtml

"In the past few days there have been several incidents in Oklahoma City of motorists being pulled over or chased by police impersonators in four-door sedans with blue rotating lights. Throughout the country last year, several women were either raped or murdered by police impersonators."

touche'
 
In the past few days there have been several incidents in Oklahoma City of motorists being pulled over or chased by police impersonators in four-door sedans with blue rotating lights. Throughout the country last year, several women were either raped or murdered by police impersonators."
Okay, but which happens more often, which is more likely to happen?
 
Tallpine

Isn't the important thing that citizens are able to go home to their spouse and family at the end of the day?
Yes it is, which is why they should not leave the house, after all they might be involved in a car accident, or hit by lightning, or eat food that will make them ill (spoiled/allergic), or fall and injure themself.........all much more likely than running across a police impersonator intent on doing harm. You'd have a much greater chance of winning the Powerball....twice. :neener:
 
Dirty or inept cops eventually get the spotlight. Unfortunately, it was with you. Hopefully, you will can rake this PD over the coals soon!
 
jfruser,

" ...I might wonder, "If I'm losing THIS crowd's trust, who's trust will I have?"

jimpeel nailed it - for me too.

Sorry, folks, if I appeared smarmy to some of y'all. My latest replies were late night (early AM) & I had been shuffling back & forth with replies & phone calls. Y'all're better on the pghone than ever on this board. :D

Soon as I was IDd as having a weapon, disarmed, cuffed - yada, the GOOD NEIGHBOR, & his wife were telling the cops that I was "just the (another good) neighbor, had nothing to do with the previous incident - yada.

Too late. Their blood is up .....

As mentioned. I can see why they would want to disarm me, even cuff & detain the the squad car - even "pick it up (the handgun) in the morning."

BTW, the safety was on- if I hadn't mentioned that previously & did even tell them so, etc. about "1911-style, single action" ... didn't want the thing going off w/them thinking the safety's a decocker.

Having once been a cop & shot IPSC with several, I was more scared when they attempted to place my handgun on safe than at any other time during the incident .... :uhoh: figured I'da been kilt when some yahoo "decocked" the thing & shot himself in the leg.
 
So the concern was not that the pistol would A/D when hitting the dirt, but that the cops would N/D it, possibly shooting someone?

For the former, it's probably a good idea to only carry a pistol you're confident will not A/D when hitting the dirt from shoulder height. I doubt if a <= MKII BHP would A/D. A MKIII definitely would not.

For the latter, maybe after it has been dropped is a better time to explain.

-z
 
Zak,

I was very concerned when they were pointing pistols at my chest, I was very concerned as to "how to proceed," I was very concerned about "just" dropping a gun on the ground, (the idea of an AD did cross my mind - I was extremely lucid & very-much-so, possibly had ESP at the time ;) ), very concerned about some yahoo thinking a decocker "didn't work" & start fidlling with the trigger.

Did I mention I was very concerned? :D

Since this thing went balls up so quickly, I was considering most anything.

& tell y'all what: I suspect, mind you, that the closest & most commanding voice possessed a .40S7W caliber semi-auto pistol. I really couldn't look past the very large & dark black hole in the barrel of that gun. Looked like a friggin' tunnel! ;)

I've an MKIII & would all but C&L the thing & pitch it up in the air & be confident it wouldn't AD.

My confidence, at the time law not in my (any) choice of fierarms, but in the judgement & skill of those already violating all of the Big Four! Three times over!
 
I started a discussion once on the LEO forum over at ar15.com about the habit cops have of pointing their pistols at your head when they're worried that you might be a threat. Bottom line: behavior that would get you or me arrested for aggravated assault with a deadly weapon is all in day's work for your average cop.
 
An Officer who doesn't make it home isn't much good to society. An Officer that doesn't make it to the next call isn't much good to society.
Granted, how does that change my point though? To take your argument to an extreme you could justify any action at all in the name of officer safety. Obviously you weren’t trying to justify wrong actions but just because any given call might turn deadly for a cop doesn’t mean they should be overly aggressive. By the way, I am far more sympathetic to the situation law enforcement officers are placed in than you think.
 
Perhaps so in part, but even more so is the emphasis that is placed on “making it home†throughout an officers training. Officers are told over and over and over again that their number one job is to go home to wife and kids. When such a philosophy becomes the focus of law enforcement, a shift in views regarding the proper approach to a given scenario occurs. While undoubtedly the end result is fewer officers are killed in the line of duty, just what is the cost to the very society its their job to protect?
Are you saying that you have a problem with Officers being safe? That by being safe more are making it home, but somehow this is at the expense of "public safety", and that if officers were not practicing officer safety, the public would be safer (with more officers being killed)? :confused:
 
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Thread seems to being going south some, but I applaud the general civility expressed here. Hats off.

"By the way, I am far more sympathetic to the situation law enforcement officers are placed in than you think."

Me too - b'lieve it, or not.
 
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