The Pietta "Shooter's" Revolver

[Timthinker]

On a recent BP thread, someone mentioned Pietta's upscale target version of the 1858 Remington revolver. This particular model, dubbed the "Shooter's" revolver, interests me as an accurate target handgun. I hope someone with firsthand knowledge of this particular revolver can provide some information about its accuracy and durability. In addition, I am concerned about the ease with which replacement parts can be obtained also. Please feel free to post any relevant information about this firearm.


Timthinker

 

[Old Fuff]

My experience is limited.... but anyway.

The Pietta "Shooter's Model" starts life as a standard stock revolver, but it is fitted with a special gain-twist rifled barrel, which also has a dovetailed front sight that can be drifted to make windage adjustments. Why not an adjustable rear sight like the Ruger Old Army had? Because such is not permitted in the competition it’s intended to be used in.

Chamber diameter vs. bore diameter is held to close tolerances, as is the barrel throat. The lockwork is carefully timed and the trigger pull adjusted to the minimum allowed by the match rules.

I have heard that some owners have been delighted, while others felt that the revolver didn’t live up to expectations, given the high price. I believe that one is capable of producing bench-rested groups that are smaller then the average stock gun, but wonder how many shooters have the skill to take advantage of it. More so, how many are so good that they are disadvantaged shooting a regular revolver? Too many people underestimate what accuracy can be wrung out of a slightly tweaked out-of-the-box gun.

How much the gain-twist – in and of it self – adds to accuracy is questionable. A barrel that was taper-bored (smaller at the muzzle) and then had deep cut, not button-rifled grooves, would likely be a plus. I am not sure how Pietta does rifle these barrels.

 

[Bad Flynch]

Well, I own a Dixie "Shooter's Revolver." What Old Fuff wrote is generally right on, both about the firearm and its users, I think. The fit and the finish are quite nice and there were no glitches, even right out of the box. Dixie is a nice company with which one can do business.

Dixie once had a version of this revolver without the gain-twist barrel that would save one a few bucks. I really do not think that one would miss the gain-twist rifling, but then I am older and have diabetic eyes, so unless I put the thing on my Ransom Rest, I am unlikely to see any benefit from the gain-twist rifling.

I bought one of the extra cylinders for the thing and they are expensive! $75.00 for that special version, but it fits stem-to-stern quite well and the timing is just fine without changing the revolver.

Subsequently, I bought a Pedersoli Target 1858 revolver. It has all of the special fit-ups mentioned before and a Lothar-Walther barrel. The sights are identical to the DGW and the trigger is great. I believe that it is intended for the same competition market as the DGW revolver and the prices are in the same general area. The Pedersoli has a matte finish, except on the area where the cylinder bolt notches are located: at that location there is a bright blue ring.

I also have a Traditions, by Pietta, stainless 1858 that has adjustable sights front and rear. Its timing is alomost as good as the revolvers above. However, it had problems out of the box: the hammer nose was too long and at the wrong angle, so it beat over the nipples badly. A short trip to my local gunsmith fixed all of that and for $210 out-the-door, it shoots as well as I can. The trigger is nowhere as good as the others, though: not bad enough to pay for a trigger job, but not good enough to be pleasing.

A buddy has a much older stainless Pietta. It came with a barrel that was screwed on crooked and Pietta refused to fix it. However, it is pretty much like a tank and shoots quite well, so the defect appears to be mostly cosmetic. The lesson here is to get your actual purchase sample in your hand before you buy or do business with someone like DGW, who will absolutely stand behind their product.

 

[razorback1010]

That's why I own a "shooter's" :


I don't think the gain-twist rifling is bringing a lot in accuracy either. Pietta copied the original Remington rifling bench (original Remmies were rifled with a gain-twist) for this particular gun, but this kind of rifling gives its best with heavy conical bullets which are forbidden in MLAIC competitions. Anyway, they are completely apart from the traditional ones, all the parts are specially designed and the steel is also of better quality.
In my opinion, these perfectly tuned toys remove one factor from the equation : the gun. Meaning that only the shooter is left. On a bench, the grouping with my "shooter's" is under an inch. Knowing that, I'm the only one responsible for my bad results. My one is in .464, but it seems that some are in .457 or even in .451, maybe older batches ? I'm not sure.
spare parts are easily obtainable through VTI gunparts.

 

[Harve Curry]

Nice group.
What distances are these shot at?

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

I think (this is just my opinion and I'm not exactly recommending this to anyone) that one would be better off in the long run to do like I stated on another thread that I done.
Order the Pietta, Target Model, color case hardened, standard, which ever one of them you want.
Find you a good gunsmith and sit down over coffee with him and ya'll have a long talk. Explain to him what you want as an end product the best you know how to explain yourself.
Listen to what he tell's you. If he dosen't ask, which he probably will, tell him what type of ball (diameter, etc) that you will be wanting to fire in the finished product.
I opted for .451 and explained to him that the balls would alway's be swaged round balls of pure lead. Of course you can still fire the .454, but you want everything to be set up with the understanding that you will be firing the .451. (unless of course you like the .454)
Basically what you are looking for here is a brand new barrel, plus you want all of the inside parts hardened up and polished and the cylinder mouths and forcing cone in proper alignment and to know for sure that the inside diameter of the chambers are correct. I don't know the proper terminology here but the smith will know exactly what you're talking about.
Make sure ya'll discuss and decide at what poundage the trigger breaks. The average Pietta '58 .44 caliber has about an 5 pound trigger pull. Notice I said that was the 'average'.
Mine is set for considerably
less than that. I don't have 'hair triggers' but I'm not too far removed from having them as judged against a 5 pound pull. It's my responsibility not to allow the piece to discharge until I want it to, no one else's.
The smith will ask you all kind's of questions about what type of shooting you will be doing so pay close attention as he explain's 'progressive rifling' and so forth to you.
Then work your deal with him as to how you will pay for it. (ie, so much down as a deposit, so much a month or so much for a certain amount of work at a time, does he keep the piece until he's paid in full, what guarantee he put's behind his work, will he place the finished piece in a rest in your presence and prove to you how it groups at varying yardage, or have you decided you can trust him enough to take his word for it without being present when the test's are done, etc etc, all sort's of stuff like that)
It does not cost a fortune to get this work done.
It will cost some money, but when you have a good payment plan set up with the people it will not be hard on you. I'm talking about me here. For all I know you may have so much money you wipe your ass with $100.00 bills.
The one thing I do know is that when he or she or them or they get through with your little Pietta, by God you will have something and that's for sure.
I cannot shoot as good as my Pietta's will shoot. No way in hell. I'm getting to be an old man, I smoke all the time, I drink gallons of strong black coffee and I just can't do it the same way as I used to could.
I had the work done because I'm retired and live by myself and don't have many expenses and it gave me something to mess around with and to help me occupy my time and thoughts.
Well, anyway..anyone who really want's a top notch piece machined and tuned up just for them and their preferences and them alone, I will alway's believe that is the best way to go.
Even if you don't really need it or get much use out of it, it is still yours. It belong's to you, tuned and set up just for you.
That's my thoughts on the subject. Sorry I typed so much here.
I will stay out of the matter....Good Luck with your endeavor....

 

[Coyote Hunter]

I started that thread you are refering to because I had bought a Navy Arms "Pietta" and it was finished better than my other Piettas and had better feel and grips. I was told to look for the progressive rifling and it has it. I finally got some info from Navy arms. It is their version of the "Shooters Special" and was made in 1985. They no longer carry it. It was never shot, although the cylinder had drag marks from people playing with it. So, because I only paid $150.00 for it at a swap meet and it was made to shoot, I bought the THR forum recommended .457 balls and loaded her up. I shot her earlier this week and, it shots fantastic. I say fantastic because I'm not one of those that is good at home gunsmithing and if the gun doesn't shoot point of aim, I'm not handy with fileing and adjusting sights. She was fantastic because she shot POA at 25 yards right dead in the black with a 2" group. All were touching except for the first shot, and that was because I shot a little low putting the black circle setting on top of the sight, instead of poutting the sight dead on the X center. Would I pay $600-800.00 for a new one? probably not, but for a good deal...I'll keep it. I may even take it hunting next year. It will outshoot all my other BP revolvers AND my cartridge revolvers..

 

[Oldnamvet]

I have a Cabelas Pietta 1858 that I got about 15+ years ago. It has target sights including the rear sight which is adjustable for windage and elevation. I think it is just the normal 1858 with target sights, no special barrel. Price was about $25 more than the standard 1858 at the time

 

[Timthinker]

I appreciate all the responses so far, particularly the advice from Old Fluff and the Charcoal Gent. The Pietta model in question has received some good publicity, but I wanted some firsthand information before purchasing one in the future.

Ironically, my first BP firearm purchase after several years absence from this sport will not be a revolver but a single-shot Pedersoli LePage pistol. I have been informed that it is a real "tack driver" and this factor has persuaded me to purchase it. A friend warned me that after shooting the LePage I might find the accuracy of caplock revolvers disappointing in comparison. I hope not, so this is why I am soliciting opinions on highly accurate revolvers. Thanks again.


Timthinker

 

[razorback1010]

Nice group.
What distances are these shot at?

It was shot at 25 m (27 yards).

A friend warned me that after shooting the LePage I might find the accuracy of caplock revolvers disappointing in comparison

He was right, you can't compare the accuracy of a single barrel with the one of a barrel which has its chamber sawed off (basically, that's what a revolver is). But both are fun in their own ways.

 

[oldelm]

It's great to hear of others who have the Shooters Rem, and their comments with specific info about them. I never knew that Navy Arms offered a limited run of the Shooters,...thanks for posting that ,Coyote Hunter. I bought one from Dixie a few years back when they had a sale on them. I think they were on sale because of certain blemishes, or problems with them. For instance, I sent the first one back and exchanged it because of chamber to bore misalignment, and Jamie was really nice about looking through the others to make sure he replaced it with one that had good alignment. As was pointed out already, Dixie stands behind their products, and will do all they can to help you.
I'm very happy with the one I got, and it's more accurate than my other stock Uberti, and Euroarms/ASP Remingtons. I slugged the barrel and it has .456-57 grooves, the chambers measure .457. The bluing is a superb dark blue. It has "BS" date stamp,..made in 2002.

Zazorback, thanks for posting the target,...very nice! Do you shoot in competitions in France?

Charcoal Gent., your good ideas about having a gunsmith make some changes on the Remington NMA, thereby improving its performance is well taken, I think, by a number of people involved with the NSSA Nationals (North-South Skirmish Association). There are at least a few well recognized gunsmiths who belong to NSSA, and do accurizing jobs on these Remingtons.

I recently picked up an accurized Tom Ball .44 cal Remington NMA which I haven't had a chance to shoot yet because of winter conditions. Tom Ball was a talented gunsmith, well known in the Skirmishing circles (NSSA), who used to go over stock replica Remingtons (mostly Pietta) and accurize them by replacing the barrels with faster twist ones from the famous barrel maker Rob Hoyt, re-cut the gun's forcing cone to an even 11-degree angle, aligning the chambers to the bore, reaming the chambers to equal or slightly oversize bore, and doing a good trigger job,...all of which help the shooter attain better accuracy. He would then shoot the accurized Rem in a Ransom Rest and write the load specs on the back of the target which would then be given to the customer of the gun. Here's the target which came with mine. Pretty impressive group, .....so, since I know I'm not the greatest shot, any fliers out of this gun will be MY fault and not the gun's,..haha!

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa276/foxlbee/44ballremwithtarget3ajpg.jpg

Unfortunately Tom Ball died in a car accident about ten years ago. Once in awhile, his Remingtons will surface on the market, mostly in the Skirmishing circles, and at annual matches, etc. There's another fellow named Rob Lewis from Waynesville,Ohio who currently does similar accurizing on the Remingtons, and I've heard he does great work ,too.

 

[Coyote Hunter]

Oldelm,

Here a copy of the email I recieved from Navy Arms if you ever need any reference material. It was received March 4, 2008..

What you have is a Deluxe model 1858 New Model Army
in .44 cal. The first true reproduction of the originial Remington built to
the dimensions and weight of the originial . It feasurea an 8" barrel with
progressive rifling
all steel construction and blue finish and silver plated trigger guard. This
revolver is intended for the competive shooter and is factory tuned for
ultimate performance. Overall length
is 14 1/4, weight 2 lbs 14 oz., rec. ball diam. .451 round ball.
Manufactured in Italy with Pietta and imported during the
early to late 1980 - 1995. If in excellent condition this gun value would
be approximately $250.00.

Hope this helps.

Navy Arms
Dixie Carpenter

 

[oldelm]

Coyote Hunter,.....that was darn nice of them to send you that info. Thanks for sharing it, and I'll save it into my "Shooters Rem" folder.

You say you used .457 roundball in it. Did it shave alot of lead off the ball when you rammed them down? The reason I ask is I wonder if the bore has smaller grooves (.451) , because the letter you got mentions recommending a .451 ball. Zazorback seems to think that some of the Shooters Rems came with varying size barrel groove dia., even down to .451. I'm curiuos if you ever slugged your barrel?

I wonder if Navy Arms is still doing much business. Val Forgett,Jr., of Navy Arms, is selling gunstocks, grips, barrels, etc. on eBay. I bought a pair of 1858 Remington grips from him not too long ago. They were the early ones with the winged brass nuts , similar to those on the originals.

Anyway,...thanks again for showing us that letter, and have fun with your "Shooters Rem"

 

[razorback1010]

Zazorback, thanks for posting the target,...very nice! Do you shoot in competitions in France?

As a matter of fact, I do. But I've never done a 99/100 while competiting...only once at a training session. But it's all my fault, not the gun's...

 

[Coyote Hunter]

oldelm,

I bought a box of .457 balls before they answered my email. I was looking at the dixie gun works catalog and they said .457 so I ordered some. The chambers are chamfered so there was a little ring shaved off. I was wondering if the chamfered cylinder compressed the lead into an eggshape more than cutting a good ring. Either way, it shot an exceptional group. The only other size balls I have right now is some .454 for my other .44's and haven't tried them yet. But I figure, with that good a group and no problem loading, then it should be alright.

CH

 

[oldelm]

I was wondering if the chamfered cylinder compressed the lead into an eggshape more than cutting a good ring.

Yes, I think the chamfered chamber mouths do allow the ball to swage itself into the chamber more before slicing off any excess ring. I've heard of some folks that cut a slight chamfer on the chambers for just that reason. Sounds like since you're having no problem loading, the .457s are a good size for that gun.

 

[damoc]

I have a pieta rem 58 44 target model and it shoots great I have one of those
conversion cylinders to shoot the 45 lc cowboy ammo and i think it actually
shoots better than a rugar blackhawk i also have. with blackpowder cap and ball
it also shoots very well but seems to foul the revolver chamber pin quickly
and lose accuracy after about 12 shots It needs a lot of cleaning.

maybee i should go back to 451 instead of 457 ball will this help with
barrell lead fouling?

 

[razorback1010]

maybee i should go back to 451 instead of 457 ball will this help with
barrell lead fouling?

What you need is a ball that fits well in the cylinder. If you usually shoot .457, .451 will certainly be too small. Capping the ball with lube usually prevent too much fouling, I can shoot accuratly 40 or 50 rounds in a row without any problem. My loads for such sessions are : powder, semolina, lubed felt wad (nicely cleans the barrel between ech shot), ball and lube. For matches (13 rounds), I don't use felt wads but between each cylinder, I just run a cleaning patch saturated with Hoppes n°9. My cylinder pin is only very slightly rubbed with oil, so that powder fouling doesn't stick on it. The last ditch solution is to start with .457 for one or two cylinders and then swith to .454, but I wouldn't recommand it unless the other solutions didn't work.