The real tragedy of Iraq

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Human Rights Watch:
The suspected site probably dates back to the crackdown following a Shi’a uprising in March 1999. Researchers for Human Rights Watch interviewed Settar Khalaf, a cattle herder living near the site who recounted that in spring of 1999, he saw a bulldozer dig three trenches in a remote area where he regularly takes his herd. The following morning he saw several buses and six Ba’ath party cars arrive on the site. Hiding some three hundred fifty meters from the vehicles, Khalaf saw men in military attire exiting from the cars and removing blindfolded and handcuffed prisoners from the buses. According to his estimates, 80-100 persons might have been in the buses. The prisoners were led in a line to the trenches, where they were placed one by one. Seconds later, the men in uniform began shooting at the prisoners with machine guns and pistols for several minutes. Then a bulldozer covered up the trenches.
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http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/05/iraq051103.htm
The Tehran Times:
Rafed Husseini, a doctor leading the group of local men doing the digging, said a total of 3,000 bodies had either been retrieved or located in the past nine days. About half remain unidentified while the rest have been identified mainly through documents found on the bodies, Husseini said.

He said local farmers who had witnessed some of the killings by Saddam's forces had alerted them of the mass graves. "They saw the crimes taking place but did not dare talk about them at the time," Husseini said.
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http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=5/15/03&Cat=4&Num=006


Yeah, it's all propaganda. You're right you know, it must have been GW Bush that killed those people so he could pin it on Saddam.

You're irrefutable evidence has been refuted, repeatedly.
 
Actually, in one of the wareshouses filled with the remains of thousands, there were records documenting who was there, and how they had been killed. They had all been executed. Or maybe the left-wing parasites think that "shot in head" is actually referring to a medical treatment.

Then again, there are people who believe that the showers at Dachau were a health measure. After all, don't want the Juden to get lice, right? The only proof of what happened was the survivors and the stories of American GIs who had every reason to lie, right?
 
What Standing Wolf said earlier bears repeating:

"Not in your names-- right?

All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." :barf:
 
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SkunkApe, I do not advertise myself as an expert on the Civil War. Just over the years I have read quite of bit of all kinds of military history.

Off-hand, one book that comes to mind that I found quite interesting is "Landscape Turned Red" about the bloodiest single day battle of the Civil War at Antietam creek at Sharpsburg MD in Sept. 1862.

If you have not seen it yet, Ken Burns' video history of the Civil War is quite interesting. I have seen it at Blockbusters. And every Saturday the Washington Times usually has at least one or more articles about the Civil War.

Any book about the Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest should be a good read because the man was amazing. A total over-achiever. The son of blacksmith and only with a third grade education, Forrest became one of the most successful generals of the Civil War. I think he personally killed 29 Yankees in combat, IIRC.

Yankee General William T. Sherman once said if it takes the lives of 10,000 Union troops and all the money in the Federal Treasury it would be worth it to get rid of Forrest.

Regarding being skeptical of government, it is a very healthy habit. A trust government less than I trust the news media, which is not much. However, reports are coming out right and left of mass graves all over Iraq. And, in these graves many of the victims are bound, blindfolded and many obviously shot to death. There where three major finds of mass graves just this week.

It is doubtful that any of these people died a normal death because Muslims are very scrupulous about burying their dead respectfully. Also, it appears these mass graves are not being excavated by trained forsenic experts. So, some of these reports may be tinged with inaccuracy. Shooting is not the only way to kill people. All you need is the bulldozer as another option.
 
I don't care which side of all this arguing anybody prefers. I'm totally fed up with the petty bickering and sniping that's going on. Hence, the various edits and deletions.

SOME folks can't seem to resist acting like grade-school girls at recess, having a desperate need to make these needling little remarks.

There are times when deleting nonsense is as refreshing as a trip to the dumpster: The house smells better.

:D, Art
 
I don't accept that it is the job (or right) of the united states government to (use my money to) oust regimes of sovereign nations - no matter how they govern. How did those here that accept these invasions come to believe in their legitimacy?

If the government continues on this path, it has its work cut out for it; there are about 40 other nations similar to Iraq.

MR
 
I believe it was after signing the Declaration of Independence that Benjamin Franklin said, "Now we must hang together or we will surely hang apart."

Would George III have been a tyrant to have strung up the rebelling colonist? Of course. But no one who joined the rebellion had any doubts about the outcome if they failed. The price of failure in revolution has always been severe. Too bad the allies of the Iraqi rebels didn't "hang" with them. I guess we weren't as trustworthy to those we encouraged in rebellion as the French were to us.

"Not in your names-- right?

All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
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I couldn't have put it better. My conscience is clear.
 
Human Rights Watch:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The suspected site probably dates back to the crackdown following a Shi’a uprising in March 1999. Researchers for Human Rights Watch interviewed Settar Khalaf, a cattle herder living near the site who recounted that in spring of 1999, he saw a bulldozer dig three trenches in a remote area where he regularly takes his herd.
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The failed uprising that claimed the MOST Shi'a victims, was the one that took place in MARCH 1991! AFTER the Shi'a were encouraged to overthrow Saddam by George Bush Sr. after Gulf War I.......... and then abandoned. We knew they were taking place at that time ..........and did nothing! And Saddam even had WMDs at that time!

Don
 
If y'all want to know what happened, you should come over here and listen to the Sunni moslems talk about the Shi'ite moslems. I thought I was back in the pre-integration South of the late forties and early fifties - I grew up there. The Sunni moslem sect supported Saddam's use of the Shiite sect as a convienent whipping boy. If the shoe had been on the other foot those would be Sunni grave-yards being dug up. I had a local friend tell me that he would rather live with a Christian or Jew then a Shi'ite. This fight has been going on since the Prophet(PBUH) died. One side wanted the son of the Prophet to become the head of the faithful and the other side wanted the Caliph (who was Mohammed's(sp) uncle, I think) to take over. They have been fighting ever since. 'nuff said. Who wants to get into Religious HIstory 201 on Saturday?
 
This fight has been going on since the Prophet(PBUH) died. One side wanted the son of the Prophet to become the head of the faithful and the other side wanted the Caliph (who was Mohammed's(sp) uncle, I think) to take over. They have been fighting ever since. 'nuff said. Who wants to get into Religious HIstory 201 on Saturday?
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The split is, more or less, over who is qualified to have become the first Caliph.

If you ask Sunnis, the answer should be along the lines that any decent member of the Quraysh tribe, Mohammad's uber-tribe, can be elected/appointed to the post. Abu'l-Hasan al-Mawardi has a 20+ page dissertation on exactly how this is supposed to work.

Shi'ites, on the other hand, are convinced that succession should be limited to Mohammad's more immediate Hashemite clan and more specifically, the male line of Ali and Mohammad's daughter Aisha (ie their sons Hassan and Husayn). Qadi Nu'man has a similarly long, often rambling, dissertation on the why.

The way it really went down was
  • 1) Abu Bakr
    2) Umar
    3) Uthman
    4) Ali
Tellingly, only Abu Bakr died of natural causes. Abu Bakr became the first Caliph, probably because Mohammad designated him as the prayer leader during Mohammad's last few weeks, which seemed to indicate that he should succeed Mohammad as the leader of the faithful.

"encourage" != "back"
 
Oh, brother! The divisions among the people in Iraq have been KNOWN for quite some time!

Now you're seeing it happen! Are you NOW surprised??!!

If so....... you must be a neo-con!

Don
 
Yeah, Don...we were so brutal...

It was so bad, at one point we had Tetris competitions with the EPWs...I'm so ashamed.

Ended up giving an Iraqi my Gameboy...

Oh...the humanity! :rolleyes:

.
 
Thumper, I'm not questioning your kindness to POWs. I'm just questioning your truthfulness and accuracy.

Don
 
When they weren't sucking your knees they were telling you incredible stories! And YOU BELIEVED THEM! ;-)

Don
 
Don...believe it or not, "telling 'em what they want to hear" is a well known pitfall of intelligence work.

I know you think you're blessed with some sort of remarkable insight, but that concept's been around since the Romans.

It ain't nothin' new, and there are plenty of successfull ways to address it.

Anyway, believe what you want. We're, by and large, usually the guys on the white horses.

If you want to continually cast the U.S. as the evil empire, knock yourself out.
 
If you want to continually cast the U.S. as the evil empire, knock yourself out.
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No...... I'm talking about the US taking the WRONG course!

As an interrogator, do YOU think the US is "on course"?

Don
 
Interrogator, inshmerigator...

You should see my scalpel.

Stop watching so many movies.

As far as the right/wrong course, what would YOUR course be in a time of war? Appeasement?

Or do you maintain that we're not in a war?
 
Yes..a state of war...lower case...didja notice?

Per Mr. Webster:

war 1 a : a state of actual armed hostilities regardless of a formal declaration of war
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Yes...we are at war. The fact that you fail to notice this makes you an unusually ripe candidate for Darwin.

Lemme drop you a tiny hint...when well armed and equipped zealots are actively trying to kill you, you are at war.

Does that help?
 
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