The rule of law, human rights, and the War On Terror

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Preacherman

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I've been growing more and more disturbed by the use of measures by both the US and other Governments that undercut the Constitutional and human rights of citizens. I'm not by any means "soft" on terror, and have no compunction about using harsh measures to stop it: but to my mind, these measures must be restricted by our Constitution and by the basic common decency of our Western culture. If we adopt the measures used by terrorists in order to combat terrorism, or if we abandon the rule of law in order to fight those opposed to the law, do we not make ourselves as guilty as they are of the crimes of which we accuse them?

With this in mind, there are two articles in the London Sunday Times that underscore my concerns, and illustrate the problems being encountered both in the USA and in the UK. I'll be interested to hear what THR members think about these issues, as raised in these articles. See the next two posts for the articles themselves.
 
From the Sunday Times, London (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1869607,00.html):

November 13, 2005

Defending the realm - but at what cost?

Tony Blair and George Bush say legal rights must be sacrificed in the war on terror. But both face mounting opposition. Richard Woods, Andrew Porter and Sarah Baxter report on the global battle to balance security and liberty

Inside Guantanamo Bay prison Jumah Dossari had reached the end of his tether. Captured in Pakistan in 2001, he had spent four years locked up as a terrorist suspect, including two in solitary confinement; he could take it no more.

While meeting his lawyer last month, he asked to go to the lavatory; minutes later he was found hanging from a noose tied to the ceiling.

Dossari’s suicide attempt — he survived — is one of more than 30 at the camp. As captured “enemy combatants” they have reason to despair. On Thursday the US Senate passed an amendment that, if confirmed by the House of Representatives, will prevent the prisoners making a legal challenge against their detention. No habeas corpus for them.

For in the war on terror, President George W Bush is determined to use whatever measures he can. On Friday in a speech attacking both his critics and Islamic extremism, Bush reiterated his determination that “the defence of freedom is worth our sacrifice”.

He explained: “We are facing a radical ideology with inalterable objectives: to enslave whole nations and intimidate the world. Against such an enemy there is only one effective response: we will never back down.”

Like Bush, Tony Blair is also uncompromising in the face of the terrorist threat. He, too, is intent on ratcheting up the powers of the state. Last week the prime minister fought hard to grant police the power to detain suspects, British or foreign, without charge or trial for up to 90 days.

In the House of Commons, Blair quoted a senior police officer to make his case. “We are not looking for legislation to hold people for up to three months simply because it is an easy option,” he said.

“It is absolutely vital. To prevent further attacks we must have it.”

It did not convince MPs. Defied by 49 Labour rebels, Blair went down to a crushing defeat. He promptly accused opponents of betraying the country and imperilling its citizens. “The country will think parliament has behaved in a deeply irresponsible way,” he said.

Others believe that the trade-off between security and civil liberties is not so easy to judge. Get the balance wrong and it can make the terrorist threat worse, they say. Focus too much on new legislation, others add, and you risk taking your eye off the main game — making sure our police and security services are working effectively.

“Britain and the US are debating the balance between competing interests: the rights of individuals on the one hand, and the rights of the community as a whole to take appropriate protective measures,” said Professor Philippe Sands, author of Lawless World, a study of international law and human rights.

“You are balancing competing objectives to ensure agencies have time to investigate while adequately protecting communities — without doing so in a way that exacerbates the problem,” he said.

Other governments are grappling with the same dilemma. Australia, where this month police claim to have thwarted a significant attack, is proposing tough new laws — although only 14 days’ detention without trial.

The Netherlands, where Islamic extremists have threatened to murder public figures, is debating whether to make it easier to detain suspects. Are such draconian powers necessary? Are they effective? How far should governments go in combating terror?

AFTER the planes slammed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon in 2001, there was no mood for restraint. More than 3,000 people were dead. Tough action was needed.

Within days Bush signed a presidential “finding” giving the CIA the right to kill or capture Al-Qaeda terrorists anywhere in the world. Within a few weeks Bush declared that it was “not practicable” to try some suspected terrorists under US principles of law. Instead, the benefits of torture became acceptable dinner party conversation.

People who would normally abhor applying the thumbscrews earnestly debated whether the risks of further atrocities justified brutal treatment of suspected terrorists.

Learned articles were written about the liberal case for torture and Alan Dershowitz, the Harvard law professor, said it outright: if you had in custody somebody with knowledge of an imminent outrage, that person was fair game if it might save thousands of lives.

Dershowitz, however, advised: “If torture is going to be administered as a last resort to save an enormous number of lives, it ought to be done openly with accountability and approval from the president of the United States or a Supreme Court justice”.

It did not turn out like that. Instead, the CIA set up a secret network of “black sites” in foreign countries where captured suspects could be held and interrogated in secret, beyond normal laws. As Cofer Black, then head of the CIA’s counter-terrorism centre, told Congress: “After 9/11 the gloves came off.”

Robert Baer, a former covert CIA agent, said 9/11 was the end of “our rule of law as we knew it in the West”.

Hundreds of suspects are believed to have passed through the system, among them Maher Arar, a Syrian- Canadian resident of Ottawa, who claims that he was seized at New York airport in 2002 while returning from a holiday in Tunisia. He was sent by private Gulfstream jet to Syria where he was imprisoned and, he claims, beaten with electric cables. He was released after a year.

In January 2004 Khaled el-Masri, a German citizen, was bundled aboard another CIA plane after being arrested in Skopje, Macedonia. He was flown to a secret prison in Afghanistan. After six months he was released — but only after he had gone on hunger strike and thanks to the intervention of Condoleezza Rice, then national security adviser, who discovered he that was a victim of mistaken identity.

According to investigations by The Washington Post, the United States has operated covert prisons in eight countries, including some in eastern Europe. Inside these jails are believed to be the most senior Al-Qaeda captives who have “disappeared” after being seized. Nobody, apart from a few senior officials in the CIA and White House, knows where they are.

In the face of an unprecedented threat, America has deployed tough interrogation techniques. Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, did not object to prisoners being made to stand for more than four hours. “I stand for eight hours a day,” he said.

In a 2002 memo about interrogation at Guantanamo. Rumsfeld approved the “removal of clothing”, the “use of stress positions” and isolation for 20 days. He also approved “using detainee phobias” (such as a fear of dogs) to “induce stress”.

Among techniques used for interrogation in the secret prisons is said to be one known as “waterboarding”. This involves immersing the suspect’s head until they think they are about to drown.

These extreme measures have been kept deliberately offshore, largely beyond US legal jurisdiction. Within the United States, although tough checks and extensive surveillance are employed, fundamental rights have remained.

In theory US citizens have a greater right to freedom or fair trial than Blair was proposing for Britain (although American authorities can find ways round these rights). If a US citizen is arrested, he/she must be either charged or released within 72 hours.

BRITAIN has taken a different tack. Eschewing secret prisons offshore, it has tried to amend UK law to cope with terrorist fanatics. The initial response to 9/11 was the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001. It rushed in the power to detain suspects without trial — but only non-UK citizens and they were given the option of returning to their home countries. Other laws have allowed police access to personal data, such as mobile phone records, simply on the authority of a police inspector or higher rank.

Initially the law on detention of British citizens remained unchanged. They could not be held for more than seven days, after which they had to be either charged or released.

As the threat from Islamic fanatics spread, the pressure for tougher powers was cranked up. In 2003 the government doubled the period of detention without charge to 14 days on the recommendation of senior police officers.

A legal challenge to the imprisonment of foreigners without trial led to another change: out went the disputed part of the anti-terrorism act and in came new “control orders”. Under this power the home secretary can now hold any suspect, British or foreign, under virtual house arrest and prevent them communicating with the outside world.

At the same time the police quietly developed a “shoot-to-kill” policy aimed at stopping suicide bombers before they could detonate devices.

In July this year the London bombings intensified the pressure for additional draconian measures. Senior officers decided that having the power to question suspects for longer could help to prevent future attacks; Blair duly obliged with a proposal for 90 days’ detention without charge.

Were he and the police right to claim it was vital? The Law Society does not think so.

“The police want to extend the period which terror suspects can be held without charge so they can be questioned further,” said Kevin Martin, president of the society. “But this power already exists.”

Under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (Pace), suspects in special cases can be questioned after being charged if it is necessary to “prevent harm or loss to some other person”. If necessary Pace could be adjusted to make that power absolutely clear. Such a move, the Law Society suggested, would be better than undermining the general principle of no detention without trial.

Others pointed out that 357 people have been arrested under the latest Prevention of Terrorism Act and only 11 were held for the full 14 days allowed. All those 11 were then charged. There is, then, scant evidence of suspects being set free because the police do not have the necessary power to hold them.

LAST week as unrest among MPs became clear and the vote drew closer, Downing Street grew desperate to force the measure through. It was becoming a test of the prime minister’s authority.

Gordon Brown, the chancellor, was ordered back from Israel where he had just landed for an official visit. Turning straight round he flew back to Heathrow where he was handed an envelope. Inside was a list of MPs. “Are these the ones I have to speak to this afternoon at the Commons to try to win them round?” he asked his aide.

“No, these are the ones you need to speak to now on the phone before you get back there,” was the panicky reply.

Once back in Westminster, Brown found a conveyor belt of arm-twisting under way. Recalcitrant MPs were sent first to Hilary Armstrong, Labour’s chief whip, in an attempt to lash them into line. If that failed, they were bounced on to Brown. If he could not persuade them to support the 90-day detention plan, they were invited to see Blair.

Even as MPs trooped through the voting lobbies, Blair could be seen trying to cajole MPs into supporting the measure. It was doomed. The vote — 322 against, 291 for — was a devastating rebuff.

Minutes later, however, MPs did vote to accept an increase in detention without trial to 28 days. It means that within little more than two years the amount of time a British citizen can be held without charge has quadrupled.

Nor, it turns out, are British authorities averse to the proceeds of torture. According to official papers released last week, the government may have operated a secret torture centre during the second world war to extract information from German prisoners.

Today Britain does not engage in torture but it does make use of information gleaned through torture perpetrated by others.

In a submission to a legal case heard in the House of Lords last month, Eliza Manningham-Buller, director-general of MI5, tacitly admitted that the intelligence services receive information from overseas agencies that might be obtained by torture.

“We treat such intelligence with great care,” she wrote, because its reliability could be difficult to assess and because “detainees can seek to mislead their questioners”. But she concluded that it is more useful to have the information than not to have it.

EVEN campaigners for civil liberties accept that governments must act to protect citizens against indiscriminate terror. “There is a serious terrorist threat,” said Shami Chakrabarti, director of the civil rights group Liberty.

She admits that exceptional cases — such as a suicide bomber boarding a school bus — might demand exceptional individual responses, including the possible need to shoot to kill. But she is adamant that such “operational” dilemmas do not justify a general sacrifice of fundamental values.

Otherwise, she argues, the West risks losing the ideological battle, thereby simply encouraging the extremists.

To illustrate the problem, she points to the videotape recorded by Mohammad Sidique Khan, leader of the London suicide bombers. Khan justified his attack by invoking Islam but also by accusing the West of “bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture”. He described himself more as “a soldier at war” than on a religious mission.

The video claimed that the “twin idols of freedom and democracy in the West” had been demolished and that western nations had turned into police states.

“This isn’t a police state,” Chakrabarti said. “But the danger is that the rule book is being thrown away. We’ve come a fair way down a slippery slope.”

The risks are increasingly recognised in the United States. The neo-cons are coming round to the view that the secret detentions and tacit approval of torture are undermining their most cherished cause: spreading democracy in the Middle East.

Jeffrey H Smith, a former general counsel of the CIA, last week pilloried a bid by Dick Cheney, the vice-president, to exempt the CIA from a ban on “cruel and degrading” treatment of prisoners. “If the vice-president’s proposal is adopted,” he wrote, “the CIA will presumably be free to bolster democracy by torturing anyone who does not embrace it with sufficient enthusiasm. Some democracy.”

Even David Rivkin, a leading lawyer highly supportive of Bush, balked last week at the Senate amendment to suspend habeas corpus for foreign prisoners. His reason? Because such policies have “provoked considerable controversy at home and abroad”. In other words, it was damaging the ideological battle.

Anti-terrorist measures in Britain have not gone so far. But the trouble, said Chakrabarti, is that the slide towards extremism is all too easy to overlook. She drew on an analogy from a scientist.

“If you throw frogs into a pan of boiling water, they will hop out,” she said.

“But if you take a pan of cold water and gradually heat it up, they will allow themselves to be boiled alive.”

HOW AMERICA TOOK THE FIGHT TO THE ENEMY

American lawmakers made absolutely clear the purpose of their main measure to combat terrorism. They called it the Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act, which in acronym reads as the USA Patriot Act.

It radically extended the powers of law enforcement agencies to carry out surveillance by allowing them to study personal telephone and internet records on extremely broad grounds. The only legal requirement is that records are deemed “relevant for an ongoing investigation concerning international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities”.

The act also created new powers to detain foreigners and to revoke American citizenship, which could remove the usual protections of the US constitution. But the most draconian legal element in the new anti-terror arsenal was the designation of suspects as “enemy combatants”, placing them beyond the protection of US domestic law. Under that provision they can be detained indefinitely, as hundreds have been at Guantanamo Bay and other prisons beyond America’s shores.

Although this formula may have shielded President George W Bush from criticism that he is undermining the legal rights of ordinary Americans, it has damaged the image of the United States abroad. Its enemies can argue that America has one rule for its own and another — much harsher — rule for foreigners.

The US system of detaining prisoners abroad has, according to one Amnesty International official, led to an “archipelago” of secret jails. This charge prompted outrage in America because it seemed to echo the brutal “gulag archipelago” of camps for political prisoners in the former Soviet Union.

So far the “enemy combatants” provision has been applied mainly to foreign nationals captured abroad; it has been used on American soil in only three cases.

John Walker Lindh, the only US citizen caught fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan, was allowed the full legal rights of a defendant in the US courts.

By contrast, foreign nationals claim that they were seized and summarily dispatched to prisons in far-flung places. Flight details of planes believed to be operated by the CIA lend credence to their accounts.
 
Also from the Sunday Times, London (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2088-1869638,00.html) - and I know Andrew Sullivan can be maddeningly self-contradictory in his opinions, but I think in this column he raises some valid points:

November 13, 2005

Waging war on terror abroad and on freedom at home

Andrew Sullivan

In a telegram on November 21, 1943 Winston Churchill defined a fundamental difference between the Anglo-American way and that of our enemies. Churchill wrote: “The power of the executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree odious and is the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or communist.”

Perhaps Tony Blair and George W Bush regard Churchill as a bleeding heart leftie. But what Churchill’s view represents is an old basic principle of Anglo-American warfare and justice: fight war with ferocity but never lose your democratic soul and always treat prisoners humanely.

This is never an easy balance, of course. In the fog of conflict we make mistakes. Executives invariably overreach in prosecuting wars and have done so in both America and Britain (the Guardian claimed yesterday that SS prisoners were tortured at a secret London centre).

Our system — of habeas corpus, executive powers subject to legislative and judicial checks, and free speech to air the issues — is specifically designed to correct such errors. That is its beauty — and its strength. It gives us a flexibility in war that dictators lack. It makes our war-making more, not less, effective. At its deepest level, it is what distinguishes us from Saddam Hussein, the Taliban and the Islamist bombers we face today, just as it distinguished us from the Nazis and communists.

Those of us who believe in fighting the war on terror need not regard civil liberties as somehow a sign of unseriousness in wartime. Protecting liberty at home is critical to winning the wider conflict, especially in the larger battle of ideas that will ensure ultimate victory or defeat.

There is now little doubt left that the executive branches in both countries have overreached. The case against Bush, however, is far stronger than that against Blair; and it begins with the legal sanctioning of torture and the abuse of military detainees.

Advocates of abuse insist that Al-Qaeda members are not signatories to the Geneva conventions and so do not merit humane treatment. The argument misses the point. This is not about terrorists and their barbarism. It is about us and our civilisation. You cannot fight a war to bring democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan while torturing detained insurgents in Saddam’s prisons and makeshift camps in the Afghan wilderness. As a policy it is incoherent, damaging to our cause, immoral and ineffective.

The confessions you get from individuals broken by mental or physical brutality are highly unreliable, as any professional interrogator will tell you. It harms the torturers as much as the tortured, which is why much of the resistance is now coming from the ranks of the CIA and the military charged with this vile practice. If Israel eschews the tactic, so can the United States. The price that the West has paid in terms of moral standing is already incalculable.

The same goes for the notion that the executive needs no checks in wartime. The legal architects of Bush’s policy have argued that the president as commander-in-chief has constitutional powers that allow him to circumvent laws and treaties as he sees fit in wartime. This radical new extension of presidential power is neither conservative nor effective.

Unchecked executive power has made terrible mistakes in the occupation of Iraq. Secrecy and paranoia have helped to compound these errors rather than rectify them. Congressional trust and blank cheques were misplaced. The president’s sad attempts to explain a misguided policy shrouded in secrecy have only undermined his credibility.

Last week, for example, the president insisted that “we do not torture”. It was a bold statement. It is also patently untrue. Last week, for example, we discovered that the CIA operates several “black sites” for terror suspects in former Soviet camps in eastern Europe. Among the techniques authorised for the CIA to use against them is “water-boarding”, where inmates are plunged or drenched in water to the point of drowning. This is repeated until a confession is forced.

According to a Pentagon commissioned report, this technique was used on one detainee in Guantanamo on 17 occasions in one month and was still legally not “torture”, according to Bush administration lawyers. Hence the president’s carefully parsed statement. His strained legal definition is as absurd as his predecessor Bill Clinton’s definition of what constituted “sexual relations” with Monica Lewinsky. And it is of infinitely graver moral import.

Free speech? In America the first amendment protects it. But the investigation that indicted “Scooter” Libby, chief of staff to Dick Cheney, the vice-president, has chilled the press’s ability to uncover secret policies that the government does not want us to know in ways that we may come to regret.

In Britain new laws forbidding the defamation of someone’s religion are an affront on one key freedom that distinguishes us from theocracies — the right to challenge theological dictates. There are already laws banning speech that amounts to incitement to violence. The new unnecessary law is sharia-lite. If we are fighting theocratic enemies, why are we simultaneously inching closer and closer towards them?

As for detention without charges or trials, Britons live in a free country compared with America. The US government has now detained one of its citizens for three years without bringing charges against him. He is awaiting a Supreme Court review.

The court has also agreed to revisit the constitutionality of military tribunals and whether they meet basic Anglo-American principles of justice. This process takes time in the American system and there are legitimate debates about the powers of the presidency in wartime. But we are mercifully beginning to see the self-correcting strength of constitutional democracy.

This correction is fragile and needs more support from the pro-war camp. What makes today’s situation uniquely worrying is that, unlike previous wars, the current one has been defined with no discrete enemy and no foreseeable end. It is, in effect, a new and permanent reality in which the executive has assumed powers previously designed only for, and justified by, brief emergencies.

The balance of individual freedom against national security is therefore at risk of being permanently altered in a way not available to Lincoln, who briefly suspended habeas corpus, or Roosevelt, who interned Japanese-Americans.

Worse, the Bush administration is well aware of this and is unabashed. The nominations of John Roberts, Harriet Miers and now Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court prove it. Roberts has a paper trail of deferring to the president on the question of military tribunals. Miers was enmeshed in the White House’s legal decisions to permit abuse of detainees. Alito is a strong defender of the executive prerogative. Bush is quietly remaking the court to remove one vital check against his and successive presidents’ powers. All the more reason for Congress and the press to keep the pressure up.

I am not suggesting that no liberties should be surrendered to counter the real threat of terror. I am arguing that any surrender of freedom must be clearly justified in each case and openly discussed. I am saying that the courts and parliament and Congress are not threats to the war but a critical part of making it work. Freedom dies by increments; and a freedom-loving people must be especially vigilant in wartime.

Lincoln understood this as profoundly as Churchill. Like Churchill his record was not perfect, but he grasped what he was fighting for even as his own country was melting down in a brutal civil war. Asked by a supporter to suppress a hostile newspaper at the height of the conflict, he replied: “I fear you do not fully comprehend the danger of abridging the liberties of the people. Nothing but the sternest necessity can ever justify it. A government had better go to the extreme of toleration than to do aught that could be construed into an interference with, or to jeopardise in any degree, the common rights of its citizens.”

If Lincoln could say this in the middle of the bloodiest conflict in American history, why cannot Bush and Blair say it today?
 
Liberty before Safety.

I, too, and greatly disturbed by the ever-increasing loss of Liberty, as we "Fight the Good Fight" de' jour. What's that saying about "Power corrupts...."?

In a nutshell, it comes down to The Great Debate of The Individual -vs- Society, which in turns comes down to the line between Liberty and Safety. And which side of that fence does Evil Prefer?

Maybe we will never become as bad as those against whom we fight - terrorists, despots of tyranny, etc. That, however, seems to be the rationale and excuse for creeping ever closer to those ends.

Carry On, and Long Live Liberty.
 
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Not to oversimplify it, but I think we just need to be attacked a few more times to have it all sink in. We should be looking more to Israel for what it really takes to defend a country under constant attack or the threat of it. Americans are bitching mostly because they don't want to confront the reality that their neat little utopia has forever been altered to something meaner and more hazardous. It is no longer a question of losing freedom but rather a question of which freedoms and to what extent.
 
Americans are bitching mostly because they don't want to confront the reality that their neat little utopia has forever been altered to something meaner and more hazardous.

No problem confonting it here: the ire is because I, for one, believe Bush is responsible for the change.
 
coylh said:
No problem confonting it here: the ire is because I, for one, believe Bush is responsible for the change.


Many are adamant about that in response to most anything. With all due respect, it gives "bigotry" a whole new connotation.
 
From the first article:
On Thursday the US Senate passed an amendment that, if confirmed by the House of Representatives, will prevent the prisoners making a legal challenge against their detention.
***, over.:eek: :cuss:

How can those people in Washington think like that? Do they really believe that is a good idea? A good precedent to set?

Have they no morals, no sense of justice? Morons.:scrutiny: :cuss:
 
RealGun, I'm not sure I understand your point. I don't think I qualify as a bigot, if that's what you mean, as I get along just fine with with other people, different ideas and all.

I also don't blame Bush for everything. I don't believe he's responsible for the "economy" or Katrina disaster relief for example.
 
coylh said:
RealGun, I'm not sure I understand your point. I don't think I qualify as a bigot, if that's what you mean, as I get along just fine with with other people, different ideas and all.

I also don't blame Bush for everything. I don't believe he's responsible for the "economy" or Katrina disaster relief for example.

Realizing that "bigotry" is known more as having a racial connotation, the real meaning of the word, reading from Webster's is as follows:

bigot - a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her opinions and prejudices.

bigotry - the state of mind of a bigot; acts or beliefs characteristic of a bigot.

I liken bigotry to an irrational lack of objectivity.

I write this as a challenge to all readers rather than an indictment of you personally.
 
Interesting articles. One of the fundamental problems I see is that our rulebook does not address the situation we face. Existing laws address civilians and enemy soldiers in vastly different ways. But our enemy actively tries to function like soldiers while seeking our system's legal protections for civilians. Our government and society are struggling to deal with this dichotomy.

I suspect there are no quick fixes to this dilema. A patchwork of hastily-conceived laws like the USA Patriot Act is not the right answer. The government's attempt to operate within the loopholes of existing laws (i.e. secret offshore prisons) is not the right answer. And relying on the existing system and denying that changes need to be made is also not the right answer (imagine an enemy soldier with the "rights" to a public defender, habeus corpus, bail, a speedy trial, etc.).

We are in a period of national and societal soul-searching in which the issues are slowly being clarified. We can and will rewrite our rulebook and, with vigilence and determination, those changes will deal with the new realities we face while preserving the values we hold.

-----

BWT, Andrew Sullivan is such a cheap hypocrite for citing Lincoln in his article. He relies on the iconic image of Lincoln to support his argument, while knowing that Lincoln's real conduct (mass suspension of habeus corpus, misuse of martial law, and even ordering the arrest of the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court) was monumentally more extreme than either Bush's or Blair's.
 
The so called "enemy combatants" are in fact "unlawful combatants" under the definition of the Hague and Geneva conventions. They may be subjected to whatever policy the detaining power establishes under those conventions up to and including summary execution. Until the 1950's they were dealt with by military the commanders involved and that was that.
When war ceased to be action in support of national policy and instead beacme the refuge of those who would not establish a national policy, it came apart. When we wage war without establishing required outcomes, then political operational control becomes the norm and we get conflicts that drag on forever and ever. Run by ametuers for their personal ends. Operational control in war needs to get back to political operatives defining the outcome and staying out of the process until the generals pass the decision to them, for example breaking the nuclear tripwire. The CIA also needs to return to it's original purpose, the coordination of information gathered by other sources, not as an operational agency.
99% of the time our military leadership has demonstrated correct and moral decision making in the process and the 1% have been dealt with adequatly by the courts martial.

The third country nationals such as Mr el-Masri are a totally different case and should be handled exactly like any other criminal. We have sufficient means in place to protect classified information in trials, the government merely lacks needs the fortitude to prosecute those who willingly divulge the material, as is provided for in the law.
No need for secret prisons or failing to charge criminals IAW established law.

As for unlawful combatants, all is correct, ie. Gitmo.

Sam
 
They should get a trial by a jury of US servicemen and their families and WTC families. If found guilty they should be summarily executed. Otherwise send them home.

To aid in intelligence gathering. Offer the ones sentenced to death the chance to lower their sentence to life imprisonment if they give up information that turns out to be useful.
 
it's still early in the play...

Hamlet, Act III, Sc. 1:

"To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd."

Act V:

Hamlet, sword in hand. General mayhem.
 
Perhaps I am looking at things differently, but the problem seems to be "us".

I put the us in quotes because I am referring to Americans in general, everyone who expects the government to protect us.

Our government is supposed to be Of, By, and For The People; or so I have read.

When our government is a seperate entity it is no longer "ours", and therefore can no longer expect the kind of support that a few officials are beginning to realise they so desperately need.

New York City would not have any "security problems" if the average New Yorker was part of that security, but that would require a level of self-reliance and responsibility that is viewed with suspicion at best, and openly hated and feared at worst.

I am not sure how our society got to this point, it is not even a single society but many, working together after a fashion, for now...

That old Pogo quote: "We have met the enemy, and he is us." seems appropriate.

We have the means as a nation to accomplish almost anything, but neither any idea of what it is that needs accomplishing nor the will to do it.

I am beginning to consider the idea that we are better off fragmented than with a strong leader to centralize us, considering past examples of that process and the likely results, but worried that the consequences of such fragmentation might be even worse.

I guess this is what it means to be caught on the horns of a dillemma...
 
New York City would not have any "security problems" if the average New Yorker was part of that security, but that would require a level of self-reliance and responsibility that is viewed with suspicion at best, and openly hated and feared at worst.

I am not sure how our society got to this point, it is not even a single society but many, working together after a fashion, for now...

NYC is not a tribal band or a village, it's a metropolis of ten million, many of whom are running off in very different directions, many of whom have bought into a collectivist ideology, many of whom couldn't care less about the people they share physical space with.

There's no "us" in New York City in any real sense.

That said, I'm not sure that any amount of social cohesion could stop a determined terrorist with today's mass weapons. Decentralization would be the prudent course, to the best extent practicable.
 
I agree that "unlawful combatants", by treaty definition, don't fall under the scope of the "traditional" justice system, and are a separate case. However, when US citizens (e.g. Padilla) are detained without trial under this classification, I have to disagree. If one is a US citizen, one is entitled to the Constitutional rights and protections inherent in that citizenship. I think it's extremely dangerous to waive these rights and protections by classifying a citizen as an "unlawful combatant". This can (and, I believe, inevitably will) lead to a situation where an "inconvenient person" is classified as an "unlawful combatant" simply because some bureaucrat finds it quicker and easier to do so than to go through the justice system to achieve his ends.
 
This may sound confusing, but you need more cohesion to work decentralized than you do centralized.

Otherwise you get Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire, lots of scattered villages easily overrun by the first band of organized raiders to come along.

The surviving villages start working together, pretty soon you get an organization that turns into a government, and eventually unless the average citizen is involved in some fashon you end up with a huge bureaucracy that has little to do with helping folks help themselves.

We have many folks in this country who are interested in helping themselves to as much as they can get at the expense of those who would just as soon take care of themselves.

Does that help?
 
From A Man For All Seasons:

Thomas More: There is no law against that.

Roper: There is! God's law!

More: Then God can arrest him.

Roper: Sophistication upon sophistication.

More: No, sheer simplicity. The law, Roper, the law. I know what's legal, not what's right. And I'll stick to what's legal.

Roper: Then you set man's law above God's!

More: No, far below; but let me draw your attention to a fact - I'm not God. The currents and eddies of right and wrong, which you find such plain sailing, I can't navigate. I'm no voyager. But in the thickets of the law, oh, there I'm a forester. I doubt if there's a man alive who could follow me there, thank God....

Alice: While you talk, he's gone!

More: And go he should, if he was the Devil himself, until he broke the law!

Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!

More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?

Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!

More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you - where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast - man's laws, not God's - and if you cut them down - and you're just the man to do it - d'you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.
 
Preacherman said:
I agree that "unlawful combatants", by treaty definition, don't fall under the scope of the "traditional" justice system, and are a separate case. However, when US citizens (e.g. Padilla) are detained without trial under this classification, I have to disagree. If one is a US citizen, one is entitled to the Constitutional rights and protections inherent in that citizenship. I think it's extremely dangerous to waive these rights and protections by classifying a citizen as an "unlawful combatant". This can (and, I believe, inevitably will) lead to a situation where an "inconvenient person" is classified as an "unlawful combatant" simply because some bureaucrat finds it quicker and easier to do so than to go through the justice system to achieve his ends.
That's already happened. Just ask honest Abe Lincoln.
 
Give them a hearing. If they were in the wrong place at the wrong time or a simple soldier send them home. If they are considered a threat, fundamentalist (in otherwords have declared or follow a jihad) taliban or al queda oprative or commited war crimes execute them, and if you think they have usful information keep them locked up. If they arn't deemed a threat to national security or have information though just let them go there is no need to hold them.

As for things like the patriot act I can see both their potential usfulness and their potential coruption. If you arn't a US citizen you should be fair game to the patriot act but if you are a US citizen they should still need a warrent to do the things the patriot act lets them do.
 
I consider Padillia the same as the TCN's. We have the means to try cases that involve national security. Get him in front of a magistrate and charge or let him go, TODAY.

Sam
 
Churchill wrote:
“The power of the executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree odious and is the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or communist.”

What kind of Anti-American Bush-hating leftwing drivel is this?

I consider Padillia the same as the TCN's. We have the means to try cases that involve national security. Get him in front of a magistrate and charge or let him go, TODAY.
Why do you support the terrorists?
but to my mind, these measures must be restricted by our Constitution and by the basic common decency of our Western culture.
Why do you want to hamstring the president? ;)
 
'Scuse me there Mr. javafiend,

Obviously your views are somewhat to the right of mine, which are such to make Mr Goldwater look like a pinkie.
I do not support terrorists in any way and trying Padillia would be of no assistance to them.

Spent 26 years supporting the right to a fair and speedy trial amongst other things and won't stop now. If that is support for terrorism then so be it. Better them than someone who would rape lady liberty in the light of day.

Sam
 
Sam said:
'Scuse me there Mr. javafiend,

Obviously your views are somewhat to the right of mine, which are such to make Mr Goldwater look like a pinkie.
I do not support terrorists in any way and trying Padillia would be of no assistance to them.

Spent 26 years supporting the right to a fair and speedy trial amongst other things and won't stop now. If that is support for terrorism then so be it. Better them than someone who would rape lady liberty in the light of day.

Sam
Sam, I suspect he was using sarcasm to make a point that you and I would agree with. I hope so, anyway.
 
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