The Second Amendment is about hunting...

[HunterGatherer]

according to Howard Dean at least.

President Bush is a friend to R.K.B.A. only in the sense that he is willing to appoint an Attorney General that is willing to state the the 2nd does indeed enumerate our God given right to bear arms. That said, I think that Dr. Dean's contrived emphasis on hunters, hunting, hunt... ad nauseam, go a very long way to show him for what he is; the latest iteration of the gun-grabbing vermin on the left. And by left, I mean that Dr. Dean considers Senator Kerry to be a "Republican". (Tim Russert took Dr. Dean to task on that matter earlier in this same interview)

The following is a partial excerpt of "Meet The Press" Sunday Feb 1st, 2004:

RUSSERT: Let me turn to the issue of guns, because you've been outspoken on it, as governor, as a candidate.

Back in Vermont, this was a flier the NRA put out, and they said, "In November, we should return a truly pro-gun governor to office by reelecting Governor Howard Dean."

Do you believe that the NRA has been a positive force in America?

DEAN: It has in Vermont. I can't speak about America.

I think the NRA is less positive the closer you get to big cities, because they have these crazy ideas like you ought to be able to have a bazooka on your front lawn, and all that kind of stuff, under the Second Amendment.

In Vermont, the NRA was very helpful. We did -- as governor, I preserved 8 percent of the entire land mass of the state of Vermont, never to be developed. The NRA was very helpful, because hunters get that you can't hunt if you don't have habitat.

Actually that endorsement's interesting. You know, I believe in the assault weapons ban. And I believe in background checks and extending background checks to gun shows. I never met a hunter that thought you ought to have a AK-47...

RUSSERT: But, Governor, the NRA's against that. They're against the Brady Bill.

DEAN: I know. The NRA is not going to endorse me this time.

RUSSERT: They said that federal agents are "jackbooted government...

DEAN: Of course I don't...

RUSSERT: ... stormtroopers."

DEAN: Yes, but George Bush's father resigned his membership in the NRA over that.

RUSSERT: Right.

DEAN: You know, I don't support that kind of crap. I think some of the leadership of the NRA is nuts.

But the truth is, there are a lot of NRA members that aren't nuts. They're decent people. They're hunters, and they understand -- look, I come from a very rural state.

In fact, one of the cases that I make is that I'm going to be able to win a whole lot of union members that vote Republican, and a whole lot of rural people, because of this one position.

You know, I'm not -- George Bush is going to get the NRA endorsement, there's no question about that. He's letting the assault weapons ban lapse**, which I think is a huge mistake.

But the truth is, because I come from a rural state and I understand hunting and I understand what most NRA members are about, I think I have a much better chance than any other Democrat of beating George Bush, for that particular reason.

Dave Neal (ph), who's the head of the UAW in Iowa, once told me that he thought he lost 20 to 30 percent of his members on that one issue alone.

Now, look, I'm not going to get the NRA endorsement, because I do support the assault weapons ban and I do support background checks and extending it to instant background checks to gun show laws.

But nobody's going to be able to push me around and say that I'm for registration or all that stuff which they're going to do for all the other Democrats, because I was endorsed eight times by the National Rifle Association when I was governor of Vermont.

That stuff matters. That's an electability issue. And I think those are the kinds of things that make me much more electable than some of the other folks in this race.

* Bold emphasis added.

**Remains to be seen. From your lips to God's ears Dr. Dean.

 

[Mulliga]

YAAARGH!

Seriously, you can use an AK-47 to hunt deer. I mean, as long as you have a 5-round mag (that's the law here in FL). Trajectory/ballistic wise, it's very similar to a .30-30. Of course, most AK clones are pretty inaccurate, but a deer is a relatively large target, especially at under 100 yards.

 

[HunterGatherer]

[teehee]Couldn't resist![/teehee]

 

[Shooter973]

Hunting?

Howard Dean is wrong in so many ways about almost everything he talks about that we don't have the time and I don't have the energy to cover all of his "Idiotic" stands here. Just let it run its course and he is self destucting at every turn. What a Clown! But then none of them seem to represnt my views very well at all. What a bunch of stange thinkers!

 

[OF]

Dean is no surprise, it's that fact that the NRA endorsed this guy 8 times that scares the hell out of me.

- Gabe

 

[mrapathy2000]

Dean is one example of a political joke that wont be getting elected. its one thing to have people think your a nut its another to open your mouth and tell everyone you are.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Dean's playing a sharper game than that. He is trying to separate the NRA by dividing it up into hunters (who are OK) and then those gun nuts who want you to have a bazooka.

Dean has worked with the NRA closely for many years. He knows that the bazooka comment is a bald-faced lie. He is purposely painting the NRA as extremist to try and scare off the duck hunters.

 

[Jarrod Hartsfield]

Dean is simply trying to use the NRA as a trump card. It is the old trick - say one thing good about them, or part of them and they wont notice the attack on the other parts.

He must think that we are dumb.

I agree with the post above, the fact that we (the NRA) gave him even one endorsement, really scares me.

 

[Waitone]

The leftist side of the Democrat party breaks into a rash at the sound of "NRA". The only way Dean could avoid alienating ALL Democrats is to draw a distinction between good NRA types (hunters) and bad NRA types (non-hunters). He could then justify is pro-NRA actions in Vermont as helping the good NRA types. As president he would then be free to victimize (re:attack) bad NRA types while keeping the NRA in general happy by keeping his hands off the good NRA types.

Classic political maneuver. Create a distinction where none exists. Repeat the distinction publicly until it becomes common knowledge, then begin the process of villification of one side or the other. When challenged about his support by the NRA he can say, "Hey, I didn't support the nut cases. Everything I did was in support of the good NRA types."

The man is a sniveling marxoid who is political toast. Kerry burned him. Now, how long before Kerry is toasted by Clinton, Clinton, and Soros?

 

[Mulliga]

Dean might be crazily leftist, but Doyle is far worse IMHO.

 

[Bruce H]

It is about hunting and the citizens of the United States have been remiss in their duties for some time now.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

All the Dems use this trick.

http://www.cnsnews.com/Politics/archive/200311/POL20031117a.html

 

[Lone_Gunman]

If you remove political spin, what is the difference between Dean and Bush on guns?

Nothing that I can tell.

Of course, it doesnt matter, Dean is all but out of the race now.

 

[another okie]

Your thread title is inaccurate. He did not say the Second Amendment was about hunting. He said Vermonters like to hunt, which is true, and that the NRA supported hunting, which is true. The NRA was founded as a marksmanship and safety organization, and that's really where the heart of the organization still is. The NRA only got involved in politics because it was that or face confiscation.

Dean may think the second is about hunting, but I doubt it. He's not a great candidate, but he's just about the same on guns as Bush.

 

[stv]

I, a gun owner, do not hunt, nor do I have any interest in hunting.

Does that mean Dean doesn't support my right to bear arms?

 

[HunterGatherer]

Your thread title is inaccurate.

It's completely accurate. He was asked about guns and the N.R.A. His answer dealt only with hunters, and hunting, except for the blatant lie about the N.R.A. where he says: "I think the NRA is less positive the closer you get to big cities, because they have these crazy ideas like you ought to be able to have a bazooka on your front lawn, and all that kind of stuff, under the Second Amendment."

Dean may think the second is about hunting, but I doubt it.

You may well doubt it, but I have never heard the word gun used in his presence where he did not immediately take the initiative to 1) Bring up hunting, hunters, etc... 2) Make a completely false statement with regard to the N.R.A., at least some of its members, and its stated goals. Not once.

He's not a great candidate,

Almost certain to become understatement of the year.

but he's just about the same on guns as Bush.

If you can't discern between someone who is - at worst - indifferent to an issue vs. someone that proudly proclaims himself to be an activist on an issue, then there is little I can do to help you out. But for the bandwidth that it's worth:

You know, I believe in the assault weapons ban. And I believe in background checks and extending background checks to gun shows. I never met a hunter that thought you ought to have a AK-47... Now, look, I'm not going to get the NRA endorsement, because I do support the assault weapons ban and I do support background checks and extending it to instant background checks to gun show laws.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

If you can't discern between someone who is - at worst - indifferent to an issue vs. someone that proudly proclaims himself to be an activist on an issue, then there is little I can do to help you out.

Well, (Art's edit) which one is which? I think you are intending to say Bush is at worst indifferent on the gun issue; I disagree and would say he is at best indifferent.

Bush supports renewal of the AWB, so they are even on that point and you can't hold it against Dean if you aren't holding it against Bush.

Dean supports closing the gunshow loophole. Has anyone ever heard Bush's position on this issue? I have not. Why have I not heard where he stands on it? Why hasn't he said? Are politics more important to him than the second amendment?

Its kind of hard for me to believe Bush is willing to stand up for the second amendment when the only comment he has made is for renewal of the AWB.

 

[HunterGatherer]

Well, (Art's edit) which one is which? I think you are intending to say Bush is at worst indifferent on the gun issue; I disagree and would say he is at best indifferent. Bush supports renewal of the AWB, so they are even on that point and you can't hold it against Dean if you aren't holding it against Bush.

Bush has said that he would sign an AWB bill if it reached his desk. Those who understand the implications of a Republican controlled House, Senate, and White House know what that means. Conversely Dr. Dean has stated repeatedly that he will actively seek a renewal of the AWB in addition to gunshow loopholes etc...

If you can honestly say that you think that Dr. Dean would appoint a pro-RKBA AG, then I will take you at your word that you see no difference, and concur with your choice of terms in self-description.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

So its ok for Bush to play chicken with the Bill of Rights as long as he wins?

You think it is ok to support the AWB, as long as he supports it with his fingers crossed, supposedly knowing it will never make it through Congress?

He tried a similar tactic with Campaign Finance Reform. He said he thought it was unconstitutional, but signed it anyway because he thought the Supreme Court would shoot it down, much like he thinks Congress will shoot down renewal of the AWB. He played political "chicken" and lost.

I think it would be wonderful for the Democrats to get the AWB either passed thru Congress, or attached as a rider on another bill so Mr. Bush will show us how he really feels.

We need a president who will not use the Constitution as toilet paper.

As for Ashcroft, yes he has said he thinks the 2nd amendment is an individual right, and that is really nice, but what he he done otherwise? How are things different know than when Bigfoot was attorney general?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Its kind of hard for me to believe Bush is willing to stand up for the second amendment when the only comment he has made is for renewal of the AWB.

That's hyperbole Lone_Gunman. Bush has made many comments that relate to RKBA and signed several bills now (actions to back them up/disprove them).

Here is a list of such actions (the pro/neutral/con are my own categories, feel free to move these items about to fit your own beliefs; but at least be aware that Bush has done a lot more than make vague comments in support of renewal of the CURRENT awb.)

PRO:

1. UN Small Arms Restrictions blocked by US

2. Attorney General declares Second Amendment is individual right - reverses 35 years of previous Justice Department doctrine on the matter.

3. Attorney General refuses to allow legitimate purchase of NICS data to be used for fishing expedition - Ashcroft stops grabbers from sifting through NICS data of legitimate purchasers to look for "terrorists".

4. Ashcroft changes NICS data holding from 90 days to 1 day - NICS data on legitimate purchases will now be purged from the system in a single day as the law intended rather than being held onto for 90 days per Clinton policy

5. Bush supports and will sign lawsuit preemption bill

6. Bush ends taxpayer funding of useless HUD gun buybacks

7. Signs bill closing loophole that prevented cargo pilots from being armed

8. Signed the appropriations bill containing the Tiahrt Amendment that protects gunowner privacy by making item #4 the law of the land.

NEUTRAL:

1. Claims to be against original bill arming air line pilots but signs bill authorizing it.

2. Partially repeals Clinton ban on import of some semi-auto firearm parts instituted in Summer of 2000 to allow import of parts for repair purposes. Doesn't repeal any Executive Orders relating to guns instituted by previous Presidents.

CON:

1. Continues his support (stated in 2000) of the notoriously useless semi-auto ban.

2. Signed the bill banning non-existent plastic guns into law.

 

[greyhound]

What's Dean going to say when asked about Vermont's CCW law?

Not that he had anything to do with it, but I don't hear anything about him pushing for repeal, either.

My guess is he'll trot out the "Vermont is different from NY/Chicago/LA" line again.

Campaigning hard to the left does not reconcile with being moderate with guns, sounds like he's trying to have it both ways.

 

[DrDremel]

The fact that the NRA endorsed this guy shows they are useless.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The fact that the NRA endorsed this guy shows they are useless.

The NRA endorsed him as governor of Vermont - you know, that same state that many of the people who despise the NRA hold up as the example of the way gun laws ought to be.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion; but don't you think yours is a bit harsh on the NRA? In fact, if anything it looks like the NRA took a guy who has a bit of grabber in him and managed to persuade him to keep some of the least restrictive gun laws in the nation.

 

[grnzbra]

Seems to me that the main difference between Bush and Dean (as well as all the other Democrats) is that Bush is a member of a party that does not have gun control as plank in its platform. One of the main things Democrats are about is taking away all (yes, hunters, all) guns; get everyone thinking of semi-autos as assault weapons now, scoped hunting rifles as sniper rifles later and handguns any way that's handy.

 

[romulus]

The fact that the NRA endorsed this guy shows they are useless.

The NRA endorses based on questionnaires, incumbency record on guns, and opponent platform. With Dean in Vermont it was a no brainer, as it was with the pro-gun governor of Arkansas, Bill Clinton. In what has become a ubiquitous ritual, pro-gun local- and state-level Democrats embrace the gun prohibition cause as soon as they join the national establishment. The idea that Bush is as anti-gun as Dean or Kerry or those two other southern men of the people is too ridiculous to contemplate. Will sign the AWB renewal? I don't like it myself, but I've drawn a hell of a breather for the past four years...