Col. Harrumph
Member
Driftwood has a point...
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The single-action safety-notch and the "Cowboy Load" myth
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Jim Watson
Member
Colt made SAAs in .455 and .476 for the British market.
Nominal rim diameter .530".
How did they do that?
I once read an article with tales of diverging chambers but that seems kind of odd.
Nominal rim diameter .530".
How did they do that?
I once read an article with tales of diverging chambers but that seems kind of odd.
CajunBass
Member
It's been a long thread, but I've enjoyed it. There is a lot of knowledge here.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy
First, I am posting this photo, which I believe I posted yesterday, I'm starting to lose track, of .520 diameter 45 Schofield rims all fitting into a 2nd Gen Colt cylinder.
The cartridge at the top of this photo is one of the 45 Colt rounds made up for the Colt Double Action revolver of 1919. I think I have that right. Anyway, the rim is .438 in diameter. To the right is a 455 MK II with a rim diameter of .424, a little bit larger than a .520 rimmed 45 Schofield. To the left is a .455 Colt with a rim diameter of .430. A standard 45 Colt 2nd Gen Colt cylinder. I'm not sure if I could fit multiples of the .438 cartridge in the cylinder without rims over lapping. But there would be no problem with six of the .430 .455 Colts chambering without the rims overlapping.
The Colt New Service double action revolvers had larger cylinders than the SAA. This is a New Service chambered for 45 Colt. No problem fitting any of these rounds in its cylinder.
I don't know much about the 476 Ely cartridge, but I can tell you that Colt only made a total of 163 Single Action Army revolvers chambered for that round.
No idea if the chambers needed to be diverging or not, but it is certainly in the realm of possibility.
This is a photo of my old EuroArms Remington replica 1858 Cap & Ball revolver with its 45 Colt Conversion cylinder. The cylinder on this model was not large enough for a 45 Colt six shot conversion cylinder, the rims would overlap. So Ken Howell designed a 45 Colt conversion cylinder for this model with the chambers angled out ever so slightly. Less than one degree if I recall correctly. With the chambers angled slightly like this, the cylinder can accommodate six 45 Colt rounds, or the slightly larger diameter rims of 45 Schofield. Howell was granted a patent on the design of this cylinder. I see no reason why Colt could not have done the same for the 476 cartridge if necessary, particularly since they only made 163 of them. Drilling chambers at a slight angle would have been completely possible, even with the machinery available in 1876, which is when Colt made those revolvers. Bullets leaving the chamber throat at a very slight angle and transitioning into the forcing cone has no effect on accuracy, trust me on this.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Before his role as bad guy Jack Wilson in 1953's Shane (and long before his role as Curly Washburn in 1991's City Slickers), Jack Palance had done very little film work. He was mostly a New York Broadway stage actor.
When he showed up on the set to film Shane he had just about no experience riding a horse, and very little experience with guns. He spent a lot of time learning to ride and to handle guns.
In fact he was never very good on horseback, he was nervous around horses. It required many takes to get a shot of him flawlessly dismounting a horse. The director used that shot for all of Palance's shots mounting or dismounting a horse, running it backwards when he needed to be mounting the horse. The scene where Palance first shows up in the movie on horseback was originally meant to show him galloping into town. Instead, he was filmed with the horse walking, which made his entrance look more menacing.
Palance was nominated for an Academy Award for Best Supporting Actor for his portrayal of Jack Wilson. He did not win, but he was never out of work after that.
I watched that movie maybe a month ago, it had been many years since I had seen it. It was just as good as I remembered it.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Except for the creepy little kid who keeps yelling "Shane". "Shane"
UncleEd
Member
In regards to "Shane," according to the Internet
Movie Firearms Data Base and the movie still
pictures it provides, the Shane/Wilson fast and
furious gunfight was accomplished thusly:
Alan Ladd using a nickeled Colt's Police Positive
DA revolver with long barrel
Jack Palance using a blued Colt's Police Positive
DA revolver with 4-inch barrel.
So take that all you SAA nut jobs and movie
critics!
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Ah heck!
I wish I had a dollar for all the times the Hollywood studios substituted firearms that were easier to operate than the real thing.
Did you ever see the scene in Winchester '73 where Lin shoots Waco Johnny Dean? In his death throes Waco (Dan Duryea) fires his revolver rapidly into the ground. This was clearly done with a modern double action revolver, who could cock and fire a single action revolver rapidly while he was dying?
Earlier in the film Charles Drake, as Steve Miller proudly proclaims he is holding a Henry rifle when it is clearly a Winchester Model 1873 in his hands.
And when Dutch Henry Brown complains about Henry rifles not having any killing power, he is also holding a Winchester Model 1873 in his hands.
In The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence, James Stewart is holding a double action revolver that the prop department had cobbled an ejector housing onto to make it look somewhat like a SAA.
Have you ever heard of a 'Hollywood Henry'? A Winchester Model 1892 with the fore arm removed to make it resemble a Henry. There was one in the shooting match scene in Winchester '73, and Burt Lancaster carried one all through The Scalphunters.
The Walker Colt Augustus McRae carried in Lonesome Dove was a modern Italian replica modified to shoot 38 Special blanks.
I could go on and on. Did you know it was common for the prop departments to take antique Trapdoor rifles, saw them off to look like a pistol, put a fake flintlock pan on them and pass them off as flintlock pistols in pirate movies? Much quicker to reload a Trapdoor with a blank than to bother with flint.
The fact that the producers of Shane substituted modern revolvers in a shootout just emphasizes my point that Jack Palance was not very good with guns. Alan Ladd hated guns and was not very good with them. In one scene Shane shoots somebody even though his revolver is clearly not pointing at the victim.
Anyway, just a publicity photo, but that is clearly not a Colt Police Positive.
These are Colt Police Positives. To be more accurate, they are Police Positive Specials, meaning the cylinders are long enough for 38 Special ammunition. Except for the little 22 Police Positive Target on the far right.
I wish I had a dollar for all the times the Hollywood studios substituted firearms that were easier to operate than the real thing.
Did you ever see the scene in Winchester '73 where Lin shoots Waco Johnny Dean? In his death throes Waco (Dan Duryea) fires his revolver rapidly into the ground. This was clearly done with a modern double action revolver, who could cock and fire a single action revolver rapidly while he was dying?
Earlier in the film Charles Drake, as Steve Miller proudly proclaims he is holding a Henry rifle when it is clearly a Winchester Model 1873 in his hands.
And when Dutch Henry Brown complains about Henry rifles not having any killing power, he is also holding a Winchester Model 1873 in his hands.
In The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence, James Stewart is holding a double action revolver that the prop department had cobbled an ejector housing onto to make it look somewhat like a SAA.
Have you ever heard of a 'Hollywood Henry'? A Winchester Model 1892 with the fore arm removed to make it resemble a Henry. There was one in the shooting match scene in Winchester '73, and Burt Lancaster carried one all through The Scalphunters.
The Walker Colt Augustus McRae carried in Lonesome Dove was a modern Italian replica modified to shoot 38 Special blanks.
I could go on and on. Did you know it was common for the prop departments to take antique Trapdoor rifles, saw them off to look like a pistol, put a fake flintlock pan on them and pass them off as flintlock pistols in pirate movies? Much quicker to reload a Trapdoor with a blank than to bother with flint.
The fact that the producers of Shane substituted modern revolvers in a shootout just emphasizes my point that Jack Palance was not very good with guns. Alan Ladd hated guns and was not very good with them. In one scene Shane shoots somebody even though his revolver is clearly not pointing at the victim.
Anyway, just a publicity photo, but that is clearly not a Colt Police Positive.
These are Colt Police Positives. To be more accurate, they are Police Positive Specials, meaning the cylinders are long enough for 38 Special ammunition. Except for the little 22 Police Positive Target on the far right.
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I have a reprint of Goulds' book. It stays within arms reach of the sofa.
Frankly, I skipped right over the part on loading the old Colts. Heck, I "knew" how to do that, didn't I? I also knew very well that relying upon the safety notch involves risks that I am not going to take.
I knew about Earp's documented negligent discharge.
I knew what Elmer Keith and every other gun-writer said about it.
All of that preceded Centennial and The Shootist.
I never loaded my SAA with more than five rounds. My big concern was about lowering the hammer before all five had been fired.
I cringe every time I see Richard Boone do that in the opening scene of Have Gun Will Travel.
No, I missed Gould's write-up on the subject. More importantly, I never know that the instructions from the National Armory at Springfield called for using the safety notch in 1875.
I like the SAA and the old Ruger and the top-break Smiths. But I would load five.
A New Vaquero would be great. Would that it could be had with real case-hardening.
This has been a most informative thread.
Colt Police Positive Specials in Shane--imagine that.
Foe defensive carry I would prefer those or a semi-auto, but that's another subject.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
The one that stood out for me was the Colt DA's that Charles Bronson carried in his portrayal of Hickok in The White Buffalo.
J-Bar
Member
Paul Newman/John Russell’s death scene at the end of the movie “Hombre” is yet another in which our hero uses a double action of some stripe to dispatch his opponent, a vaquero beautifully played by Frank Silvera.
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IMBD database says Newman used a Colt Police Positive.
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IMBD database says Newman used a Colt Police Positive.
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Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
This is for CraigC.
I found the videos of me unloading and loading a SAA.
Sorry for the poor quality of the lighting.
You can see I started out with five dummy rounds laid out on the table. You can see there are no primers in these rounds, just empty brass and bullets.
I started with five spent cases in the cylinder.
Watch carefully and you will see I load one, skip one, then load four more, cock the hammer and lower it on the empty chamber.
A little bit of fumbling but I managed to unload and load in about 21 seconds.
Of course, this does not simulate a combat situation, where one would be crouching behind cover and pulling fresh rounds out of belt loops.
Notice that by pointing the revolver down, most of the rounds manage to slide into the chambers by themselves without any assist from me, owing to the big 250 grain bullets.
This is for CraigC.
I found the videos of me unloading and loading a SAA.
Sorry for the poor quality of the lighting.
You can see I started out with five dummy rounds laid out on the table. You can see there are no primers in these rounds, just empty brass and bullets.
I started with five spent cases in the cylinder.
Watch carefully and you will see I load one, skip one, then load four more, cock the hammer and lower it on the empty chamber.
A little bit of fumbling but I managed to unload and load in about 21 seconds.
Of course, this does not simulate a combat situation, where one would be crouching behind cover and pulling fresh rounds out of belt loops.
Notice that by pointing the revolver down, most of the rounds manage to slide into the chambers by themselves without any assist from me, owing to the big 250 grain bullets.
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saaman
Member
I tried dropping the hammer between chambers with my 1878 Colt Single Action 45 and it locked into place. Had to raise the hammer to get it going. Tried it again with my 1882 and 1910 45s and got the same result. However none of my second generations would lock between chambers--easily slips over to a live primer. Curious, I examined the firing pins and the older Colts have pointier noses that will jam between the brass cases and stay in place. The second generation guns have a rounded tip that is smooth and won't get jammed between the brass cases. That being said, I have no way of knowing whether the older guns have had their firing pins sharpened somehow during their long lives.
Hey DJ, it wasn’t just Hollywood! Here is one of my Springfield Single Shot Rifles.
Not the way it left the Armory but a nice rifle nonetheless.
Kevin
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
My problem with resting the firing pin between chambers is that now the bolt is resting directly on the cylinder where it shouldn't be. Not to mention that it's not very positive.
Couldn't agree more. If you absolutely have to have 6 rounds in your SA revolver, get a Ruger for heaven sake. Other wise, put your big boy pants and your thinking cap on and carry your traditional SA safely, with the hammer down on an empty chamber.
Dave
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Yeah, I don't get the obsession with that sixth round. I guess 30yrs of people watching Die Hard thinking everything worth shooting must be shot 15 times.
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