The Slightest Provocation

[Loosedhorse]

Dave Workman has an article up elsewhere talking about a case where one guy shot another...for "disrespecting him." I'm only surprised that Dave wrote about it because I consider such events common.

I'm reading a book called Violence: Reflections on a National Epidemic. You'll all be pleased to know that, no, the cause of violence is not, per the author, guns.

The author is the former head of the MA Corrections Psychiatric Unit, so he's seen some stuff. There is (IMHO) a lot to disagree with in his theories, but his observations are telling.

He mentions specifically that some of the worst incidents of murderous violence he has ever come to know about were started by a seemingly minor event. That was enough, given the psyche of the killer, to set things in motion.

Elsewhere I was recently taken to task (don't worry--I'll be fine! ) for suggesting that being polite was an awfully good strategy for staying out of lethal force situations. The fact that it also makes the world a more pleasant place may be a secondary consideration. But this book stresses that politeness may in fact be quite valuable.

For a while I found it not easy to respond with calmness toward road-ragers; until one incident help me realize this guy was probably a bit low on his medications when I encountered him. Seriously.

So, I now try to take that same attitude if I run into a "sidewalk rager" or "parking lot rager", etc.

Or just anyone who looks normal, even.

 

[Ramone]

I've seen it attributed to Clint Smith and others, but I suspect it's been around a long time:

Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet

Presenting one's self as soft spoken, easy going, etc., often will avoid unpleasant interactions- and when they can't be avoided, having presented as one that would choose flight over fight yields a significant tactical advantage.

 

[heeler]

Let them take you to task for being polite but I too believe it works.
I live in Northeast Houston and trust me when I say there are a lot of chracters and genuine bad actors around at any time day or night.
Just small things such as allowing someone to go first through the door of the small pull in store or saying thank you when the same courtesy is given towards you can go a long way and keeps you out of a situation where one of these chracters come at you for "dissin me" or whatever the street parlance is that day.
Not saying you have to be an all accomodating door mat either.

 

[lemaymiami]

Very good topic - and one that most young men (and those with big egos...) should probably consider...


I learned on the job, as a cop, that being polite, appearing friendly and non-threatening (as non-threatening as possible when you're in uniform...), went a long way towards maintaining a relatively peaceful situation - even when violence (the real thing, not just a punch in the nose) was a high probability. No, that doesn't mean dropping your guard or putting yourself into a bad tactical position... After my early years when I was the guy that probably provoked more confrontations than necessary (understatement... my only excuse was that I was young...) I learned to at least appear relaxed, non-threatening, etc...

If I were asked, I'd say that there's just no substitute for real life experience and for those like me... good supervision until you get that experience.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Read the article. While the motive for the altercation may have been disrespect, stupidity on the part of the threatened individual seems to be what made bullets fly:

Cooley then walked over to the passenger side of the SUV, where Edwards was sitting, and racked back the slide of a handgun, according to court documents.

Edwards got out of the SUV to confront Cooley, and that's when Cooley opened fire at Edwards, hitting him in the knee, court papers say.

Jump back out of the car when the guy outside chambers a round and threatens you? Not smart. Not smart at all. Certainly doesn't excuse what Cooley did by any stretch, but most likely the injury and death could have been avoided if the victim had any common sense.

Some people are unstable hot heads, and it doesn't take much to set them off.

being polite [is] an awfully good strategy for staying out of lethal force situations.

So very true.

 

[X-Rap]

I believe that there is a combination of ills in society that have finally manifested into what we see today. Video games, movies, music, race baiters, racists, haves and have nots all are coming together to make a bad stew.
Out of all these people are the not so rare sociopaths that just don't seem to care and will kill at the slightest offense. I can't really believe that the percentage of these people have gone up but more that they have been conditioned by their environment to react with less restraint.

 

[paramedic70002]

Swallowing your pride isn't so difficult when you balance it out against everything that can go wrong otherwise.

I don't carry a gun to save face or defend my wife's honor; I don't carry it to flirt with trouble. I carry a gun to get out of trouble that others bring to me.

Plus, this society could use a lot more politeness in general.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Is it South Narc that has the article on the 'monkey dance'

in a few threads on that it is VERY interesting that there are two distinct things that need to be understood, one is your usual monkey dance, where a gang thugs shoots someone for 'disrespecting him' so he is secure in his place in his 'group' of monkeys, being polite, and deescalating is very effective, don't play.

BUT to a true predator, that's a sign of weakness and would trigger a pounce, or further escalation on the predators part.

 

[GunnerShotz]

I'll be plain and simple here: I'm always going to do my best to be 'polite' right up to and including the point where I decide someone may need to be dealt with in a violent manner. It's just the way I was raised...

 

[Loosedhorse]

BUT to a true predator, that's a sign of weakness and would trigger a pounce, or further escalation on the predators part.

From a thread right next door:

I hear this concern from time to time, but it seems to me a non-issue. Just as one doesn't have to be loud-mouthed, aggressive, and obnoxious to all (just to impress any predators who might be present that they should mess with someone else), you also don't have to be Caspar Milquetoast to give someone an out.

If someone mistakes my true and firm desire to avoid shooting him for a reluctance to defend myself from grievous harm, their misimpression will be corrected shortly.

I think we can make too much of the Scylla and Charybdis angle of "be polite, and you're killed by a predator; be impolite and you're killed by a psycho or gang-member." I suspect most of us can find the middle passage.

"Monkey Dance" is a phrase I learned from reading Rory Miller. I'll see if I can double-check regarding anything he says about politeness encouraging predators. Southnarc may of course have written something also.

 

[1911Tuner]

Being polite and relaxed produces the desired effect much of the time. "A soft answer turneth away wrath."

I'm a southern boy. You know...one of those folks that smile and act nice right up to the point that they drop the hammer on ya.

It doesn't always work, though. Some people are either stark-raving bugnuts or just plain mean. Drunks! With some of'em there just isn't a "right "answer, and no matter what you say or how you say it, they're determined to rock and roll. Always be prepared to default to the "Be polite/have a plan" mode.

 

[Manson]

I think this is a great thread and an important topic. Being polite and respectful is always a good idea. And being taken to task for it is short sighted. It assumes that while being polite a person forgets his or her awareness. Most people looking for trouble usually indicate their intention through their behavior pretty quickly.

Being polite and being prepared are not mutually exclusive.

 

[beatledog7]

The carrier of a firearm needs to have the coolest head in the room. If you carry, you cannot afford to let yourself think the firearm is there to protect your ego--it's to protect your life.

Experience gives us the power to discern whether a situation allows us room to trade a mildly bruised ego for our continued freedom (i.e., for staying out of court, or out of a funeral parlor). Wisdom is the exercise of that discernment power.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Is it South Narc that has the article on the 'monkey dance'

I think it's Rory Miller - http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Violence-Comparison-Martial-Training/dp/1594391181 . Definitely a must-read book IMHO. Or see http://ymaa.com/articles/violence-dynamics for the executive summary.

We try and point out the different categories of violence here in ST&T for a number of reasons. The general categories of violence are social violence on the one hand - the 'monkey dance' among other subcategories; and predatory violence on the other hand. If it's clear what is motivating the potential VCA (violent criminal actor) in advance, that recognition might give the potential defender an advantage.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I think this is a great thread and an important topic. Being polite and respectful is always a good idea. And being taken to task for it is short sighted. It assumes that while being polite a person forgets his or her awareness. Most people looking for trouble usually indicate their intention through their behavior pretty quickly.

Being polite and being prepared are not mutually exclusive.

To truly be polite, it is necessary to be aware. Being polite is not the rote acting out of common social custom. Being polite is acting in a manner that demonstrates that one sees and acknowledges the person with whom one is interacting. It requires a certain degree of empathy. If one sees and acknowledges the person one is interacting with, one will be more aware of the other's mental state, and better able to react to that person's actions.

Situational awareness is a necessary precursor to being polite, not a distraction from it.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Situational awareness is a necessary precursor to being polite, not a distraction from it

Man, I hate it when someone points out the obvious...and it never even occurred to me. :banghead:

Thanks.

 

[Doghandler]

Just because I'm a friendly coward doesn't mean I'm above putting your name in the newspapers.

 

[rwilson37643]

I think it is important to point out to those who contend that being polite could encourage predatory violence, that there is a difference between being polite and being submissive. While working in a correctional facility, one of the older staff members was constantly encouraging the younger COs to be polite but understand that difference. In that setting, maintaining that balance was the best way to ensure you got to drive home. The same is probably true every time you leave the house.

 

[Magoo]

To truly be polite, it is necessary to be aware. Being polite is not the rote acting out of common social custom. Being polite is acting in a manner that demonstrates that one sees and acknowledges the person with whom one is interacting. It requires a certain degree of empathy. If one sees and acknowledges the person one is interacting with, one will be more aware of the other's mental state, and better able to react to that person's actions.

Situational awareness is a necessary precursor to being polite, not a distraction from it.

Very well said.

 

[sidheshooter]

Regarding articles, Mark MacYoung's site has some info on the topic of Monkey Dancing, FWIW:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/monkey_dance.htm

also, sort of same idea as per Fred:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/violencetypes.htm

Maybe these articles are the ones you were thinking of, Shadow?

At any rate, more thoughts along the same line, again FWIW.

 

[Serenity]

To truly be polite, it is necessary to be aware. Being polite is not the rote acting out of common social custom. Being polite is acting in a manner that demonstrates that one sees and acknowledges the person with whom one is interacting. It requires a certain degree of empathy. If one sees and acknowledges the person one is interacting with, one will be more aware of the other's mental state, and better able to react to that person's actions.

Situational awareness is a necessary precursor to being polite, not a distraction from it.

I have never seen this spelled out before; it is a philosophy that I have been able, for the most part, to brainwash...er, impart on my son. It would have been easier if I had the words for it.

 

[Nushif]

Being polite is not the rote acting out of common social custom. Being polite is acting in a manner that demonstrates that one sees and acknowledges the person with whom one is interacting. It requires a certain degree of empathy. If one sees and acknowledges the person one is interacting with, one will be more aware of the other's mental state, and better able to react to that person's actions.

Can't say I've ever heard it said better. Saying "Sir" and "Ma'am" while maintaining behavior that refuses to aknowledge the other person as well, a person has always irked me. Well put.

 

[kcshooter]

Unchecked egos are dangerous things.

 

[Devonai]

To truly be polite, it is necessary to be aware. Being polite is not the rote acting out of common social custom. Being polite is acting in a manner that demonstrates that one sees and acknowledges the person with whom one is interacting. It requires a certain degree of empathy. If one sees and acknowledges the person one is interacting with, one will be more aware of the other's mental state, and better able to react to that person's actions.

Situational awareness is a necessary precursor to being polite, not a distraction from it.

Absolutely and unequivocally true. As a survey contractor for the power company in my home state, I was constantly being approached by curious individuals who wanted to know what I was doing. Having just come from a job where OPSEC was of paramount importance, I initially tried simply identifying myself and deflecting any further questions. This was the wrong choice, by far, and ended up causing problems for the majority of interactions.

As a very private person, it took some adjustment, but I soon realized that answering all questions, no matter who was asking them, was the only way to avoid an argument. It was at the same time that I realized that it wasn't that these folks really cared about my business, but that by deflecting their questions or being evasive was demonstrating a lack of respect to them. In other words, there is no polite way to tell someone to mind their own business and I found out the hard way. I also realized there was no value in maintaining OPSEC for an employer that had none. D'oh.

So, I became the cheeriest, most open guy you could imagine, even though "customer service" was nowhere in my job description. At the same time, mindlessly supplying the same answers over and over again freed up my attention to look for other things, like whether or not I was being interviewed.

 

[Nushif]

[...] by deflecting their questions or being evasive [...]

Read your post and I really like it. When faced with questions I can't aswer, actually being honest and saying "I can't tell you that" while still being cheery works with me.

I am always surprised by how many people on this board get suspicious when people get evasive, but seem to see nothing suspicious with being evasive themselves. It's like they think "I'm just being careful. These other guys, they're being shifty."