The Start of My Part Time Gunsmithing Career

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mnrivrat

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Although I spent much of my adult life doing Gun repair and cleaning, I was not, and am not a schooled Gunsmith. I still pretty much referred to myself as a cleaning and repair person. I am home schooled so to speak, but well versed and educated on Gunsmithing and do not consider myself what some might call a kitchen table Gunsmith, or a bubba gunsmith. I know my limitations, and they generally are related to tooling rather than knowledge. I know that what I just printed opens me up to snickers, and some giggles, but do not underestimate my knowledge. I did not use the word expert.
My friend who owned the gun shop I did much of the work for over the years hired a schooled Gunsmith , when I asked him to phase me out of that roll. He asked me to interview him prior to hiring and after I did ,I did not recommend his hiring. The owner ignored my advise, and paid a price for doing so.
But the title says "Start" in it, so here is that short story. I was 12 years old when my oldest brother pulled up to the house with the trunk partly opened and tied with twine in that position. The rear end of his recently acquired 1953 Studebaker squatted under the weight of what he had in the trunk and back seat. He had just returned from a nearby town where a hardware store was going out of business, and he managed to purchase all the old broken, and unserviceable firearms accumulated by the store over its years in business.
I helped him unload and take all the stuff upstairs to his large bedroom. After all hauling was complete the sorting started.
When all the ruff sorting was completed the assembly and disassembly started to take place. This went on for many days as I helped him combine parts from different guns to produce workable versions of different models.
Anyone who loves guns, and loves tinkering would have been envious of the task. Several working guns resulted from the hours he and I spent. Winchester rimfire exposed hammer models in all the calibers made were assembled, Remington rimfire hammerless Model 12's were assembled , and a number of other guns were produced from those part guns.
A couple Remington Model 12's were cut down to make handy car guns for my two oldest brothers. They were relieved of those by the local PD and hung on the wall there for a few years.
So there is the story of how I got started, and got the bug for not just shooting, but for customizing, cleaning, and repair. No Pulitzer prize stuff, but simply a short piece of my personal history with firearms.
PS: The schooled Gunsmith I interviewed was asked what are the three main systems used to operate a semi-auto shotgun. He couldn't name one. His answers to my other questions did not get much better.
 
The "gunsmiths" I see locally are really assemblers and installers. To be honest, its probably a better strategy to install expensive triggers in ARs and Glocks than tune a revolver action. I wouldn't be surprised if assembling AR components makes more money with less investment than blueprinting and rebarreling a 700. Real gunsmithing takes time to apprentice or schooling and serious machinery. Assembly and installing takes YouTube and minimal tool investment.
 
Experience is a damn good school, and if I brought in a firearm for you to repair I'd ask you "how long have you been doing this?" and I wouldn't ask you "did you graduate from gunsmithing school?" and wouldn't really care anyway if I thought you gave a good answer to the first question. Good luck in your new part-time career.
 
I believe gunsmithing has followed right along with today's mechanics.. Both have become mostly parts changers. "Let's change this part and see if it fixes the problem" seems the norm for a lot in both professions.

And for different reasons. Modern guns have moved away from requiring as much hand fitment. Cars and machines have a large array of electronics and components that aren't repairable in the field.
 
Modern methods of machining, molding, polishing, etc. have done wonders for manufacturing in all fields. The 'let's replace it and see if it fixed the problem" started in the mechanical field back before electronics became as prolific as they are now. Now days it's almost impossible to diagnose most problems without the right equipment. My current suv needed a battery after less than 4 1/2 years and after the change the cruise control wouldn't work and required the program for it be reinstalled on the computer. I was lucky in that the dealer had the best deal on a battery that I could find and the installation was free. Since they installed the battery the re-program was also free. The cruise control has had an infrequent problem of just turning off for no reason since I bought the vehicle. A few discussions with the service manager over time always got the response that GM was aware of the problem and was working on it and they would let me know when the fix was available. As far as I know it still isn't available but the re-programming has seemed to take care of the problem---so far, at least.
 
And for different reasons. Modern guns have moved away from requiring as much hand fitment. Cars and machines have a large array of electronics and components that aren't repairable in the field.
Indeed, being a POST certified Glock, 870/1100 armorer, and not a POST certified but capable AR-15 and Mini 14 armorer, these guns can be taken down, parts cleaned or swapped out and then reassembled easily. (Well maybe not the Mini, but it’s not too tough.)

I did my first spring swap on S&W revolvers this weekend. The two simple tasks I performed weren’t tough, but I seriously needed a few you tube tutorials from trusted folks before I cracked the first one open.

The experience you gained through trial, error and success is stuff that Penn-Foster or other mail order gunsmith courses don’t offer. While I really prefer to use gunsmiths who learned at the benches of tried and true experts, if one isn’t available I’d rather bring a gun to someone who has learned over time how to work on them right then someone who has paid for a certificate and then hung out a shingle.

Stay safe.
 
Modern methods of machining, molding, polishing, etc. have done wonders for manufacturing in all fields. The 'let's replace it and see if it fixed the problem" started in the mechanical field back before electronics became as prolific as they are now. Now days it's almost impossible to diagnose most problems without the right equipment. My current suv needed a battery after less than 4 1/2 years and after the change the cruise control wouldn't work and required the program for it be reinstalled on the computer. I was lucky in that the dealer had the best deal on a battery that I could find and the installation was free. Since they installed the battery the re-program was also free. The cruise control has had an infrequent problem of just turning off for no reason since I bought the vehicle. A few discussions with the service manager over time always got the response that GM was aware of the problem and was working on it and they would let me know when the fix was available. As far as I know it still isn't available but the re-programming has seemed to take care of the problem---so far, at least.

The GM story applies to a certain make of machine I work on from Sweden. They are "always aware" of an electronic/software issue and "they should have a fix soon" with another software update. "Soon" often never comes. The truth is that this particular company sells machines that never make it past the beta test stage, ever. Constant service in the field after the sale has been their business model for decades.

Thank goodness I also service machines from Japan and Germany that are reliable and keep the customer productive. Those machines need service when they hit "high mileage" conditions, rarely before.

Not to mention all sorts of machines from other countries, including the USA, with differing levels of the finished product and reliability.

Most people in my line of work could "repair" a Glock or AR with ease. I started wrenching in the pre-automation days, so I don't mind working on mechanical issues in revolvers or other guns. I'm no gunsmith, just a "gun mechanic". I believe an "old school" full fledged gunsmith needs to also be a competent machinist, and I'm no machinist. I'm not a wood worker, either. So the idea of me checkering a stock well enough to be proud of the work will probably never happen. :evil:
 
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Indeed, being a POST certified Glock, 870/1100 armorer, and not a POST certified but capable AR-15 and Mini 14 armorer, these guns can be taken down, parts cleaned or swapped out and then reassembled easily. (Well maybe not the Mini, but it’s not too tough.)

I did my first spring swap on S&W revolvers this weekend. The two simple tasks I performed weren’t tough, but I seriously needed a few you tube tutorials from trusted folks before I cracked the first one open.

The experience you gained through trial, error and success is stuff that Penn-Foster or other mail order gunsmith courses don’t offer. While I really prefer to use gunsmiths who learned at the benches of tried and true experts, if one isn’t available I’d rather bring a gun to someone who has learned over time how to work on them right then someone who has paid for a certificate and then hung out a shingle.

Stay safe.

I really lean on the Tube these days for all sorts of repairs. It's nice to get most of the learning curve out of the way before my tools come out. :D
 
I started much like you, mnrivrat. At 10, after having read one of Ian V. Hogg's great books on guns, and being from a family of mechanics, (My grandpa owned Generator Specialty in St. Paul), I took apart my Dad's Iver Johnson Sealed 8 .22 revolver, fully intending to reassemble it. My mom found it in a drawer, in a bag. She threw it away, thinking it junk. It was her Dad's wedding gift to my Dad. He was not happy. ( to be fair, it needed a re-timing, but I just wanted to disassemble and reassemble it.)
When I was 14, my Dad let me use his backup 1100 for Trap and duck hunting. It, like me, was made in 1963, and like me it was rode hard and put away wet. It was in bad shape, and would only rarely fire a second, and even more rarely, third shot, at ducks. I replaced a lot of parts, but did so in a logical manner after studying the action and figuring how it worked. Guys at the gun club noticed me working on mine, and started asking me to work on their 1100's, then 870's, then Model 12's, etc.

Voila, a "gunsmith" is born. I learned to to drill & tap, pull & replace barrels, using common tools, sometimes buying a special tool as needed. It supplied beer money. I enlisted in the Army at 22, intending to go 18B, but you had to serve some time in first, not like now. I went 76Y10, and volunteered to be the Armorer at the unit I was sent to, having graduated the Supply and Armorer School at Ft. Jackson, 1 in the class in the Armorer training, 3 in Supply. Worked on M16A1's, M1911's, and S&W and Colt .38's (Aviator sidearms.) Got an SMOS of 45B, Small Arms Repairer. Became friends with the WO2 that ran the Maintenance shop on post, and was allowed to bring my unit's arms in and work on them myself. I also stopped in and helped them out when I could. Got experience on lots of different arms, took every Armorer class my S-4 could get me into, etc.
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When the asthma I had had as a kid reappeared due to Ft. Ord's weather, I decided not to re-up, and got out. After about a year home, I was able to get a job at a well-known Sporting Goods store in St. Paul, working mostly at the gun counter. Though the shop had two very good gunsmiths that picked the guns up and did them at their shops, I did some 'emergency' repairs on the spot, and plenty of scope mounts, as we all did those.

I worked as a smith at another shop in WI some years later, but it was a long drive, on my days off from a regular job, so I left. I still work on my own guns when I can with the hand tools I have, and parts replacement for friends. I hear " Why don't you start up your own shop?" all the time, but you already know why I don't. Machining was always my weak area, just never had the time on a milling machine to get really good at it. I always knew my limitations on machinery, and would refer someone to a gunsmith who would be a better choice for the work.

I like working on my own guns, but working on others' guns is no longer enjoyable. I never liked working on cars, but it has saved me tons of cash over the years. I leave the electronic crap in them to a friend who has the diagnosis equipment for it.
 
Experience is a damn good school, and if I brought in a firearm for you to repair I'd ask you "how long have you been doing this?" and I wouldn't ask you "did you graduate from gunsmithing school?" and wouldn't really care anyway if I thought you gave a good answer to the first question. Good luck in your new part-time career.

My career ended years ago, and before I ever found Utube. I learned from books, and engaging my brain. Replacing parts was certainly some of what I did, but I also made parts, and heat treated parts. Glass bedded actions, free floating barrels, installed sights and much more. I did not change rifle barrels, nor did I do a short list of other things. I could tell you a horror story or two regarding guns I took to places that had more than a couple full time Gunsmiths, and the tooling to supposedly correctly do proper work. (factory warranty center status) I spent 40 years studying and doing gun work. As I said originally I knew my limits both tooling, and knowledge wise. In all those years I can only recall one gun coming back to me. My fault and I corrected it. It happen to be one of a number of guns I stayed up all night working on for those that needed them ASAP for a hunt. No excuse for me missing an issue. Then again when people know their gun has an issue months before season, they should get it fixed before the day before it is needed for a hunt. I am human and get tired just like everybody else.
A true "Gunsmith" is getting harder and harder to find.

I agree. They need to have some mechanical talent, and I think they should be a good machinist , and go to a top school if they are going to do it all. Good luck paying for that, and good tooling as well, because none of that is cheap. In todays world there are darn few that do it all. Most specialize, do their part, and move it along to the next specialist if extensive work needs to be done.
 
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The GM story applies to a certain make of machine I work on from Sweden. They are "always aware" of an electronic/software issue and "they should have a fix soon" with another software update. "Soon" often never comes. The truth is that this particular company sells machines that never make it past the beta test stage, ever. Constant service in the field after the sale has been their business model for decades.

Thank goodness I also service machines from Japan and Germany that are reliable and keep the customer productive. Those machines need service when they hit "high mileage" conditions, rarely before.

Not to mention all sorts of machines from other countries, including the USA, with differing levels of the finished product and reliability.

Most people in my line of work could "repair" a Glock or AR with ease. I started wrenching in the pre-automation days, so I don't mind working on mechanical issues in revolvers or other guns. I'm no gunsmith, just a "gun mechanic". I believe an "old school" full fledged gunsmith needs to also be a competent machinist, and I'm no machinist. I'm not a wood worker, either. So the idea of me checkering a stock well enough to be proud of the work will probably never happen. :evil:

The infrequent cruise control shut down is the only problem I've ever had with this vehicle and it seems to be fixed. Other than that it has been completely dependable, extremely comfortable, and gets excellent gas mileage for a vehicle of it's size. On top of that it contained the highest percentage of US made components of any vehicle sold in America when I bought it and was assembled in Tennessee.

My experience with one make of German made car came courtesy of my grand daughter. It was pretty, comfortable, ran like a scaled cat until it didn't and I was the one she called when she had a problem. I got to where I dreaded to see her name when my phone rung because it was that blankety-blank thing with another problem. Some I managed to fix, others the dealer had to send a truck to haul it into there their shop and when she got it back it went to doing the same thing fairly soon. It went down the road for a Japanese make that developed the bad habit of just quiting running and wouldn't start again until it wanted to and the dealer couldn't find a fix. A shutdown in an intersection got it traded for a GM suv which has given no trouble---so far. .

I have had much better success with my feeble gunsmithing attempts over the years. I'm a fairly competent wood worker if I do say so and have built, modified, and rescued many stocks over the years. I also dabble at being a machinest and manage to turn out something that works now and then.
 
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During the early to mid 90s my wife and I owned a small brick and mortar gun shop. I learned quite a bit and took several summer classes at Montgomery Community College in Troy, NC. All were NRA sanctioned and were educational and enjoyable. While good at some things I was wise enough to pass along work over my head to a really good smith who picked up and delivered once a week. A rifle I was schooled on and worked on was the M1 Garand. Below are some images of Garand parts serviced by a local smith in another shop.

Above a normal operating rod, the below rod was hacked with a Dremel tool.
Rods1.png

When that didn't work he apparently tried a new approach. Again, normal operating rod on the top.
Rods2.png

Still not satisfied out came the Dremel tool yet again.
Rods3.png

That is what the rifle was when I got it. This was a supposedly school trained smith who managed to butcher an operating rod beyond belief.

Brownell's offered a good set of books called Gunsmith Kinks I, II, and III which were good reading. I had all the tooling to work on M1 Garand, M1 Carbine and a few other GI rifles. I also had all the tooling to accurize Remington 700 actions. Again, being smart enough to know what is beyond your skill set or simply over your head is important. Learning to swim in the deep end of the pool is not a good idea. :)

Ron
 
Last few gunsmith conversations have gone the same… Here is the issue or symptoms, what is your plan? After some nonsensical answer I ask what the gun is worth NOW and if they will buy it as is where is how is for what I think it’s worth and they always say no and look at me like I have 11 heads and am walking around naked in the snow. I then explain to them that their work will either fix or destroy my property and that if it’s the latter then I fully expect compensation. If they aren’t willing to treat it like it’s theirs by offering to buy it if they bust it then they don’t get the business.

I quit trying and started accumulating tools.
 
One has to truely understand mecanical things and how each part interacts to be good at fixing anything like a firearm. Then as stated something called experience comes into play. It takes years for things to come together and as such a good gunsmith is always in high demand with a waiting list. I can diagnose and fix a lot of common things but am by no stretch of the imagination anything near a gunsmith. But my friends think that I may be one and keep trying to get me to fix things. Oh well!
 
Last few gunsmith conversations have gone the same… Here is the issue or symptoms, what is your plan? After some nonsensical answer I ask what the gun is worth NOW and if they will buy it as is where is how is for what I think it’s worth and they always say no and look at me like I have 11 heads and am walking around naked in the snow. I then explain to them that their work will either fix or destroy my property and that if it’s the latter then I fully expect compensation. If they aren’t willing to treat it like it’s theirs by offering to buy it if they bust it then they don’t get the business.

I quit trying and started accumulating tools.
I will share how it worked with me. You bring in the gun along with the symptoms. I grab a work order and we fill it out. I give you an estimate on parts and labor to repair the gun. Additionally any scratches, dings, or other cosmetic issues are noted on the repair order (work order). I will also be happy to appraise the guns value.

However, if I have any doubts I will very politely tell you to take your gun up the road to someone else for repairs. Even really good smiths will turn work away simply because it's easier than taking in a problem. This is why everything is clearly spelled out in a work order and if things are not done as I mention above you would be wise to take your gun to someone you feel comfortable with. Someone who will buy it if things are not done to your expectations. A good smith will also test fire the gun rather than assume replacing a part has fixed the problem.

The repair cost on the M1 Garand I cited earlier was $100 including a new op rod and test firing a few clips through it. Call after call leaving messages went on for about three months. I finally told the customer either he picks it up and pays me or it goes up for sale.

Ron
 
I am really enjoying these stories and thank our OP for sharing his experiences. He had very understanding parents! This is one of the things I really love about THR. I DO NOT attempt repairs on guns. Nor should some "gunsmiths" I have crossed paths with over the years. A couple of the finest guys I've ever known were gunsmiths and I met them thru doing gun business. Thanks for sharing your stories.
 
What school did he attend?

Besides taking most armourers courses during my career, post-retirement I attended a two year gonne smything school (and even graduated). Even after that I took summer classes there as well as long rifle classes at NMLRA Bowling Green, KY (WKU). We were taught general things so we understood how things worked and how parts interacted in the two repair classes we had. In the repair class, the harder you worked, the more you could learn.

One sad thing is that most of my classmates (and I suspect the current crop of students) didn't use the school library at all. If I had free time and wasn't at some workbench, that's where I spent all my time trying to learn. I still use that library today.
 
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And for different reasons. Modern guns have moved away from requiring as much hand fitment. Cars and machines have a large array of electronics and components that aren't repairable in the field.
As a former auto mechanic, I was taught in VoTech school how to diagnose and repair systems, not change out entire assemblies. I could, and often did, repair alternators by replacing bearings, brushes, diodes, etc. rather than the entire unit.
One day when hotrodding around, I knocked a tooth off the low speed gear of my '64 Pontiac Lemans. I walked to the chevrolet dealer, bought a replacement gear, put the old girl up on jack stands, pulled the tranny, tore it down, replaced the gear, reassembled it, put it back in and test drove it all in one day. (Hey! I was 19, young and full of energy!) It had quite the 1st gear whine because of the worn counter gear, but it functioned and shifted just fine. Just a little noisy is all.
Nowadays, a shop would just replace the entire transmission.

ETA: Holy buckets!!! I recall buying that sliding 1st & reverse transmission gear for around $18 in 1974 (IIRC). A new one will cost you $265 now!!!! Good grief! :what:
https://www.oldsobsolete.com/produc...sion-1st-and-reverse-sliding-gear-gm-3849388/
 
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I consider myself a budding gunsmith. I have been around firearms my entire adult life and have gone through a gunsmith school. I am looking to apprentice under a local gunsmith while applying for my own 07 FFL to do home repairs.
 
Last few gunsmith conversations have gone the same… Here is the issue or symptoms, what is your plan? After some nonsensical answer I ask what the gun is worth NOW and if they will buy it as is where is how is for what I think it’s worth and they always say no and look at me like I have 11 heads and am walking around naked in the snow. I then explain to them that their work will either fix or destroy my property and that if it’s the latter then I fully expect compensation. If they aren’t willing to treat it like it’s theirs by offering to buy it if they bust it then they don’t get the business.

I quit trying and started accumulating tools.

I understand your approach and it makes sense. For the customer work my approach was to fix , and to do it right. If I screwed it up it would be made right to the customers satisfaction. That didn't cost me anything over the years except for the original time spent fixing. If I ended up having to take longer than I think it should have, I ate that time. Getting it right was my number one responsibility. It was a part time job, and a hobby. Not an attempt to make a living. Most of the work I did was for a local gun shop. If the customer got over charged it was from his add on charges. I gave up my FFL when I filed for divorce, as it left me without enough to keep my shop open.
 
Wasn't too long ago a real gunsmith could build a gun by making all the parts, including a barrel. Most of them are just parts changers these days.
 
If I were to be asked if I had graduated from any "specific" gunsmithing school, the answer would be a flat-out NO! I served a four-year toolmaker apprenticeship done by journeyman toolmakers chased out of their home countries in Czechoslovakia, Germany, Poland, Lithuania and Slovakia. This training was involved with manual metal working machinery, with quite a bit of final fitting with files and close tolerance surface grinders. Prototype parts, where the first part had better be right to print.
One of my teachers worked in Germany making the internal lock-work on safes, big safes, like they used in banks over there. He taught me how to do damascening, or jeweling of highly polished parts so those parts would hold rust preventative oil. Another one taught me how to hand draw file and how to prevent the files teeth from "pinning" when working a part. Lathe and milling work was taught by several of these experts, which is how I learned to do fine threads and trapezoidal, or ACME square threads. Manual milling machines, were learned so that dovetails were properly cut (think dovetails for sights), flats on firing pins along with slots in parts that held return springs. All this prior training helped with tons of knowledge so that during my off-times from work, I could make fixtures and jigs to help me with my firearms modification jobs to make fixtures like these in my full machining gunsmithing shop:

Vvi7Cgs.jpg
BL2sAo0.jpg

And barrel accuracy testing set-up to find out how well a barrel shoots, rather than rely on dubious information on the interweb:

5ooSN39.jpg
So, no, I didn't attend any PROPER gunsmithing school, but I did spend four years going to night classes at the local Technical Institute to acquire "Supervisory Management" training.
I did take a year long metal-working class during high school taught by an X Marine Drill Sergeant that only thought of us class members as "boots". :cuss:
 
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