The venerable 870. Oh, but which one?

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WhiteKnight

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I need some serious advice about my next shotgun.



I've heard mentioned that a deep explanation with serious and practical insight into the poster's needs is preferred by those giving a response, so here goes.






I am considering purchasing my first "real" shogun to replace my single-shot NEF Pardner that I recently sold to a friend.

I am considering, well perhaps I should say that I've decided on, an 870.

However, I'm unsure of the model, and the barrel length.

I am certain I don't want one of the cheap Express models.

This gun will be for
50% Practice (sporting clays, trap, skeet, crows, small game, plinking)
30% deer hunting (using buckshot)
20% other (dove hunting, turkey hunting, varming hunting)

*Note* By defining "crows" and "small game" as practice I do not mean they will recieve any less of a clean, ethical kill than any other game animals hunted.


"Social work" is not forseen in this gun's future, as I will more than likely purchase an HD-specific model (Marine Magnum or Police) for this application. Thus an ultra short barrel (read 18" or 20") is not beneficial.

I have never actually hunted turkey before, but plan to start either this year or the next and make it a lifelong tradition. I may just end up purchasing a turkey-specific model able to chamber 3 1/2 boomers when the time comes for hardcore gobbler pursuit. Therefore a fairly short (22-24") barrel is not beneficial.

I would like to try waterfowl hunting in the future, yet since this is not my main quarry (not will it doubtfully ever be) I don't believe an ultra-long (28-30") barrel is beneficial.


I may use this gun for close-range deer hunting with buckshot loads. I have decided against purchasing a rifled slug barrel for this gun and instead will buy a NEF Tracker II single-shot 12 gauge slug gun for about 1/2 the price of the replacement aftermarket barrel. Additionally, this will allow me to not be required to switch the barrels.
:)


Keep in mind that my primary use(s) of the gun are subject to change, as in the future I might fall in love with dove hunting an forsake deer hunting with a shotgun altogether.

I've made a lot of changes throughout my journey to buy this gun, and I've gone from wanting
A Benelli m1 field (shot a friend's brother's gun and loved it)
to wanting a Benelli Super Black Eagle (wanted 3.5 capability and Benelli name)
to wanting a Browning BPS (wanted to spend less $$ than the Benelli),
and now to the 870 (wanted to spend comperable amount/less than the BPS, have better aftermarket support, and be able to say "I own an 870")


For a while I believed a gun done up in factory camo would be the best idea, but now I'm not so sure. I would very much like the corrosion and nick/ding resistance provided by a quality camo coating, as well as like the looks (after all, that's what most veteran hunters tell me camo boils down to).

At first I also believed I wanted a super-duper turkey model with all sorts of fancy doodads, but based on an honest assessment of my personal use I don't believe a turkey-specific gun would be in my best interest.


I also believed I've decided against a 3 1/2 Super Magnum reciever. I don't see myself shooting many, if any, 3 1/2 loads for at least a couple of years. Perhaps even my entire life. I simply desired the versatility of the bigger reciever if I ever have a chance to hunt geese in the future. I've also heard negative things about the modified Super Magnum reciever (simply a normal 3" reciever with an extra piece) not being as high quality as the non-magnum gun.

The vast majority of the time I plan to shoot 2 3/4 shells, with an occasional 3" used for hunting.
80% use of 2 3/4 shells
20% use of 3" shells

Honestly I don't see a need (one that I was sure I had up until just a little while ago) for 3 1/2 shells.

I believe that, as of now, I want an 870 Wingmaster with a 26" barrel in 12 gauge. :)

One thing I'm a little concerned with is the "light contour" factory barrel on the Wingmaster series of guns. I'm a little apprehensive about purchasing any gun that has a factory "light contour" barrel after "negative" (I'm putting it nicely) accuracy results with any manner of centerfire or rimfire rifles. I'm pretty much a convert of heavy barrels on rifles as well as pistols for any other activity besides extended plinking or marathon-like hunts deep into the woods.

I've heard mentioned that the Express models come with a heavier (perhaps this means "more durable"??) barrel. Yet I've heard this is a hindrance whilst hunting.

Forgive me, but I envision a cheap sheet metal type constructed barrel, and that's not what I want.

For a while I believed I would be impeded while hunting by the sheen on the polished Wingmaster reciever, but for the times when a dull, matte finished is required,

I can purchase a replacement camo stock and sell the factory glossy one on Ebay.

I can purchase one of the slip-on camo gun sleeves for woods hunting.

I can purchase an extra-full turkey tube, and a scope mount for mounting a low powered variable or red dot for when I get to turkey hunt. Yet since I've heard scopes can be a bad thing, I may just end up purchasing a fiber optic sight to mount onto the rib for 1/5 the price of the scope package.

I can purchase a variety of quality choke tubes to match any variety of game I intend to pursue.

I'm fairly sure that I want an 870

Things upon which I've made up my mind:
Price (sub $600)
Action (pump only)
Gauge (12)

I do NOT want a Nova.
I do NOT want a Mossberg.
I do NOT want a 20 gauge.
I most likely do not want a BPS.
I most likely do not want a 3 1/2 chamber.


Things to which I have an open mind:
Barrel length
Model of gun
Finish


Could you guys (I feel self-conscious saying "y'all" online) possibly give me some advice? I plan to order the gun within the next couple of days.

Thanks!

John
 
WK,

I'm confuzzled here. No big deal, it happens a lot what with the brain damage and all, so bear with me.

You say you definitely don't want one of those cheap Express models, you plan to hunt a lot with this gun, you might want it camouflaged. Hmmm. Seems to me a good used Express is just the ticket as a starting point for what you are looking for. There is no real difference save the Express is lacking the final polish, nice blue job and glossy wood of the Wingmaster- which you say you intend to get rid of anyway. Now I am not picking on you, really- I would like for you to tell me why it has to be a Wingmaster. I honestly don't understand where you're coming from.

Right now there's two 2 3/4" chambered Wingmasters at The Rabbit Hutch, and a half dozen or so Express models (not counting the pair of 20 ga. Youth models). Both Wingmasters have 20" cylinder barrels, one with a bead and one with rifle sights. Both were long ago (well, 20 years ago and more) parkerized. But twenty years ago there weren't any Express models and all I had to work with was what I could find- that was Wingmasters. So, the polished blue and the pretty wood went away. Nowadays, you don't have to do that on a project gun- you can start with a base model that is already matte finished. It's already ready for both 2 3/4 and 3" shells. You can get a variety of barrels for it. Your entry price point should be around $200 or less. What's not to love?

Now it's your money and will be your gun, and even though my wife accuses me of trying to buy all the 870s in the world it really isn't true (really it's not, I DO want to share them, really I do). I just like to see them all have good homes, you see (yes, that's it) and I simply MUST adopt a sorrowful stray every so often if I run across one. I have to admit that the "it followed me home" line is wearing pretty thin at The Hutch. Since my wife teaches statistics at the university that old tried and true "no, honey, that's not another one, that's ALWAYS been there" _never_ worked with her- she can count, and add, and multiply, and do things with numbers I never could comprehend. If she didn't like to shoot too, I would still be single- one reason I married her was she already had her own guns (only one 870 tho).

But I digress (brain damage will do that). If you must have a Wingmaster, then who am I do criticize? By all means you should get what you want, especially given that you have such superlative taste in the first place. And I wish you well, I really do, and I will NOT try to convince you to sell me your 870 at some obscenely low price, after you get it.

Unless you really wanted it to have a good home, of course...

lpl/nc too, small world ain't it?
(Founding member, 870 Rescue Society)

ps- good idea on letting go of that 3 1/2" thing.
 
870 Express Combo

You get a gun with 2 bbls. Long for clay games , upland, waterfowl...
The second is 20" with rifle sights for deer and "Serious Situations".

As far as ( tm) extra stuff...ammo, chokes, eyes and ears.

I suggest light loads to learn basics, use pattern board to determine what chokes with what payload for what flying critter. Paper plates to sight slugs.

These have 3" chambers...2 3/4" shells are I ever use for everything...
 
An 870 Wingmaster is an excellant choice, I myself have never liked the looks of the express gun, though they are just as well made. If you are going to be breaking clays you may want to reconsider the 28" barrel over the 26". IMO the 30" would be my choice for hunting and clays. It will give better versatility when shooting birds as well as hunting deer. The only advantage of the shorter barrels is in heavy brush, if you were grouse hunting in thickets. Once you get to know your shotgun then you may add different lengths of barrels to suit the need. With the choice of shells out there you may never use a 3" mag shell unless perhaps goose hunting or the occasional turkey hunt.

Get an array of choke tubes and you will be set for any situation. I believe that the factory comes with I/C, mod, and full. Get a skeet and maybe an improved/mod to add to the collection. There is also rifled choke tubes available for sabot slugs.


As far as the sheen of the bluing and stock, think how many guns have been used in the field before matte and camo guns became available not that many years ago.


It sounds as if you have already made up your mind so all this may be doing is reassuring you of your decision.
 
John, I think you've put some time and thought into this. Here's a couple things to mull over....

First, the family gave me a 30" Light Contour barrel last October for my B-day.
It's as good a barrel as Remington has ever made. After several thousand rounds through it at Trap,Wobble,Skeet and a few goose loads, I've complete confidence in it.

Second, the Express line of 870s are reliable and effective shotguns. The lack of QC at Ilion causes some probs, but that's not limited to 870s or Expresses. Getting a glitchless 870 is a crap shoot, but the odds are in your favor.

Third, there's a lot of Cinderella 870s out there waiting on Prince Chrming. Ranging from old Cruiser guns to Safe Queens, these have lots of shots left in them, and oft are available for a pittance. Well wrought and mechanically immortal, the 870s approach perfection and give lots of bang per buck.

Note that we can set up a couple 870s for less than the price of a decent battle rifle or semi auto handgun.

The modular design of the 870 means we can mix and match parts to suit a particular mission or just our whim. My mutt gun, called Frankenstein around these parts, may look funny to those narrow souls who think guns should be the same color all over, but several thousand destroyed clays and one humanely taken goose last year had no complaints about its performance or looks.

In your shoes, I'd check the local shops and the Bulletin Boards at local ranges for used 870s, if Lee, myself and the usual suspects haven't snatched them up. A tubed barrel is nice to have, but good work is done every day with a fixed choke.

Shoot your new tool/toy and as you progress, add things like stock work to make it fit, extra barrels or choke tubes for a specific mission, or just cuz ya wanna. Have fun, and soon the day will come when you experience the Satori of KNOWING the clay is smoked or the game "reduced to possession" before you press the trigger. At that point, you're a Shotgunner...
 
I actually went to Walmart yesterday evening and shouldered one of the 870 Express models a couple times. The store clerk couldn't tell me what length barrel it was, nor was it listed on the barrel anywhere, but I know it was either a 26" or a 28". My guess would be a 26".

The 870 express actually like a lot more gun that it would seem to be for the price. IMHO the wood stock on the gun ($250, 12 gauge) really didn't seem too hideous.

I mounted the gun to my shoulder with my eyes closed about a half dozen times, and each time when I opened my eyes I was looking directly down the barrel.

I believed that I've decided against buying the Wingmaster, as this gun will be abused.

I've looked at a couple of pawn shops around for used firearms in general, but most of them are selling the USED guns they have at $50-$100 more than the NEW price from the gun shop in town.

I may just end up purchasing the plain jane Express, though I might opt for the synthetic black stock over the wood.
 
870s can be taken apart and put together like Lego sets. Swapping out stocks and forearms is a 30 minute job.

In your shoes, I'd hold off on the plastic stuff until you establish what the ideal dimensions are for you,AKA Fit. Wood is easier to alter than polywhatever.
 
WK, it's very common here to see used 870 expresses for $175 to $200.

Check the local "I Wanna" or used stuff newspapers. Or the "For Sale" section of your local paper.
 
Now how am I supposed to follow sm and Dave? Is there any advice left to give? I have to agree with all they said!

I gleened this from your post....

I believe that, as of now, I want an 870 Wingmaster with a 26" barrel in 12 gauge.
Click to expand...

Go with your gut and you won't be disappointed.

Smoke

ps. Welcome to the cult.
 
870s can be taken apart and put together like Lego sets. Swapping out stocks and forearms is a 30 minute job.
Click to expand...


i agree with what Dave M. said.

wood is great. i just sent in my 870 to get my wood stock custom cut to my length of pull (LOP). i had it measured my a gunsmith. it's 12.5 inches. you can't buy a syth. stock to match that. and it only cost $60.

and, 870 are super easy to modify. i just started to get into it and my head is spinning about how my things i can get for it. in this area, i think is in third behind 1911, and AR-15s. i'm going for the one gun, many accessories route, at least until i know exactly what i want for the dedicated guns i will inevitably buy :D
 
Now that I've revisted my wants/needs, I believe I've come up with the following conclusions.

Although I like "pretty" guns (ie Wingmaster) just as much as the next man, this first shotgun will see all sides of hell and a nice finish would just get yuckied up.

I prefer matte finishes anyway.

I really wasn't looking forward to spending the $455 + tax for the Wingmaster anyway. Now I can purchase a ton of the $15/100 Federal promo shells and practice my butt off. ;)



Okay this settles it. I'm going with an Express 870 in 12 gauge with wood (*gasp*) furniture. It sure will contrast my synthetic stocked 10/22, Glock, and Savage. :D

Now, to decide the barrel length. :confused:
 
i came to the exactly the same conclusion about a month ago. every time i pick up my 870 i know i made the right decision.

as for barrel lenght, with the money you are saving you can afford at least 2. i have a 28" w/ rem chokes for trap/skeet/etc... and a 18.5" cylinder bore for HD/combat shooting. i got the 18.5 inch barrel in almost new condition, here in the classified section - $100 shipped.
 
I recently picked up an 870 Express combo with the 26" barrel and the 20" rifled barrel. I added a 20" smoothbore for "social" situations, and I am extremely pleased. Mine came with Hogue synthetic stock/forearm in addition to the wood. Excellent gun (although I really don't need the rifled barrel or even the 26" if anybody would want them).
 
Although old (pre impressed checkering ) WM s are cool, and there is nothing wrong other than wood appearence of the later WMs; I think the late 80's early 90s WM s with dull oiled finish and what looks like cut checkering and flexitab are best. Get a 26"-28" barrel with choke tube in excellent shape for $250, if you look. Buy a new rifled slug barrel from Cabelas for $129 when you can afford it.;)
 
Guys I've been reading up on the 870 over on Shotgun World for about the past hour, and honestly, I'm getting a little depressed. (post is here )

I've owned the 870 Wingmaster, 870 Express Super Mag and now own the Benelli Nova.

I wouldn't touch another 870 Express. The poor quality of workmanship leads to malfunctions of all types. However, the 870 Wingmaster has good quality workmanship in all its' parts.
Click to expand...

I grew up with a Wingmaster and have shot the Nova and think they're both pretty good guns. I have to agree with an underlying theme that seems to be running in these posts, the Nova and Wingmaster are fantastic guns but would be leary about buying an 870 Express due to workmanship quality. You get what you pay for. I know there are people that have an Express for quite sometime and never had problems and others that would never buy an Express again. Ask someone who owns a Wingmaster and see what they say...never had problems. Personally I think it's worth the money spent for a Wingmaster. Benelli makes a good shotgun though.
Click to expand...

I report with sadness that there will be no chance of purchasing another Remington product in my household, as the 870 Express has left me befuddled by its failure. The gun just out of the box (season was over) began to rust. And rust. And rust. Treatment after treatment did nothing to stop it. I contacted Remington, and to my surprise the friendly voice on the other end of the phone told me how “…we’ve been having these issues, just send it in and it will be taken care of and shipped back to you…â€
Click to expand...

I got an 835 mos. did not like the vent rib on it sold it and got 870 super mag , can't keep the rust off of it and the pump release button is junk. I called remington about the rust problem they said " ya there prone to rust" what is that crap, they know ,they don't care. I just go a NOVA and my 870 is for sale. I will never buy anouther remington rust bucket.
Click to expand...



And from here

I would have to say that the Remington 870 Express is the worst firearm model I've ever seen regarding rusting. I'll also mention that I have not seen this with other Remington model guns I've owned over the years.
Click to expand...

the only failing point i could see is that the 870 express may be more prone to rust since the finish isn't as smooth as other models, so it has the opportunity for water and such to remain hung up on it. but i don't think it would be any more likely to rust than any other shotgun.
Click to expand...




:(
 
Does anyone care to comment?

Is the quality of the Express model really that poor?

Is the Express that prone to rust?

:confused:
 
Not prone to rust. A new express will show a lot of creep from the bluing salts - meaning that Remington rushes them out the door. A bath in soap and water and a a good oiling takes care of that...
 
i can't comment b/c rust has never happened to me. although, i do take care of my guns. i always run a bore snake through the barrel and wipe down w/ a silicon cloth after every shoot. detailed clean after about 1000 rnds or after shooting in the rain. haven't had any problems w/ any gun including the 870 express. IMO, the 870 express best value in a gun.
 
Does anyone care to comment?

Is the quality of the Express model really that poor?

Is the Express that prone to rust?
==============================

WK,

I have used a couple dozen 870 Express models over the years. I bought all of them used, in fact I just ordered the first new-in-the-box 870 in my whole life. I'm 51 and I never had a new 870, most of the 870s I have used were Express models. I do care to comment, and I feel I have enough experience on which to base my observations.

In my experience Expresses are no more prone to rust than any other blued steel firearm. Perhaps current complaints are justified by a lack of care at Remington in completing the bluing process, I don't know. I have no experience with new Expresses. But Expresses are 'beater' guns and a lot of people who buy them do not take sufficient (if any) care of them. Yet they survive as well as any other firearm I've had experience with- I have owned a number of them previously owned by a number of different people.

The quality of Express models is NOT poor. I would not buy a 3 1/2" version, I see no need for that particular round and there have been what I see as legitimate complaints about the guns. But the standard 3" version is fine, in my experience. I looked at a HD version on one of my favorite dealer's 'used' rack the other night, the gun is new production (plastic trigger plate, J-lock safety) and was almost unused, it felt and looked just fine. New versions on the 'new' rack did too.

ANY FIREARM REQUIRES MAINTENANCE. Somewhere in my collection of miscellany is one of the 'comic book' manuals for the M-16 that dates from its early deployment in Vietnam. People thought the Magic Rifle didn't require maintenance either. Well, they were wrong then, too.

The matte finish on Express models is IMHO an advantage for a 'using' gun. But it does require attention, as does ANY blued finish. It is my habit to break the gun down into major components when I first bring it home, removing the furniture as well. I clean the whole thing well with a light water displacing oil (WD-40 mostly). That means every nook and cranny, inside and out. Then I apply a fairly heavy coat of Johnson's paste floor wax (in the yellow can) to everything except the bore and the trigger plate assembly, and let it dry in place. That's a trick my grandfather taught me, he used it for decades and it works quite well as a moisture barrier on steel and wood.

My blued Express models don't rust. But I maintain my guns, I don't neglect them. I still prefer to have serious working guns phosphate finished, but matte blue will work fine- it just needs more attention.

I think a lot of people out there are parroting a bunch of stuff they have read on the Internet, and I wonder how many of them even own a shotgun at all, much less an 870 of any description. After all, 'on the Internet, no one knows you're a dog' (paraphrased from Dilbert). Express models are relatively inexpensive, and a lot of people seem to think that because they don't cost a grand or so they are unworthy of consideration. Well, anyone who thinks that is a snob, period. If it hurts your feelings to drive a Nissan (or whatever) instead of a Rolls (or whatever) then what is wrong is your values, not your automobile. The same thing is true of shotguns. Snooty shooters want fancy doubles, not a shooting machine like a lowly pumpgun. NO ONE who shoots ANY KIND OF PUMP has any grounds for assuming a posture of superiority- anyone who stoops to shoot a pump has not ascended to real snobbery.

All this "Brand X is great, but Brand Y is trash" bravo sierra is a mark of very small minds, and very very little experience. I advise you to pay absolutely no attention to it. When you see an obvious dedicated following for a particular product, that has lasted for decades, there are REASONS for that to be the case. The 870 is a great design and though newer and more highly touted pumpgun offerings are available, none of them offer any real improvements to durability, maintainability, performance and especially value. An Express is just one more 870, that's all.

There are a LOT more good guns out there than there are good shooters to handle them... . Concentrate on being a good shooter, no matter what you shoot. And no matter what you shoot, maintain it properly.

Stay safe,

lpl
 
At the moment there's one complete Express shotgun and three Express barrels here. None shows the slightest tendency to rust.

One, the chopped barrel that was Frankenstein's in its first incarnation has more time in salt marshes than some guides. Watching ice form on a barrel while standing ankle deep in brackish water is a good test of one's materials and cleaning techniques.

The Slug barrel on my Deer 870 is Express finished. A few thousand rounds of Practical shooting, hot range days and sweaty hands make no record on its matte bluing.

Neither does either barrel on the 20 gauge TE here, though that's the closest to new in rounds fired.

And I had custody of a friend's 870 for a few months. It too has had some rough hunts behind it. Zero rust.

Some guides I know melt candlewax into the finish with blow dryers and heat guns.

I just wipe on a coat of oil or CLP/SLIP, let it sit a few minutes and wipe off the excess. Sometimes I repeat the treatment before storage.

I have seen a couple Expresses with rust.They were owned by louts who could %^&*() up an iron ball with a rubber mallet. These louts also owned other guns with corrosion issues.

There may be Expresses out there that could rust in an oil bath. I just haven't seen it yet.
 
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