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They've finally done it... IPSC is outlawed

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by trooper, Jun 22, 2004.

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  1. trooper

    trooper Member

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    ... well, at least it might be soon over here.

    A couple days ago a commission made up of several federal and state officials witnessed a major German IPSC competition and declared afterwards that IPSC will most likely not be recognized as a legitimate shooting sport.

    The background is that according to Germany's new (april 2003) firearms legislation only recognized shooting disciplines are allowed. With IPSC no longer being a legitimate sport, IPSC shooters will no longer be able to prove a legitimate "need" for a firearm and therefore will not be issued a firearms permit on that base.

    We don't know any further details yet, so I have no idea if there's still hope for us. If it turns out that this decision actually becomes a law I'm pretty positive that some people and associations will sue against it. The Firearms Act clearly states that the authorities may only restrict shooting disciplines that are deemed to pose a clear and present danger to public safety.

    The problem is that among our bureaucrats IPSC is widely regarded as "combat shooting" which is illegal for civilians under German law (which is why IDPA was never legal over here).

    We have to convince them (or prove in court) that IPSC is nothing but a high-end, dynamic, serious and safe sport.

    Oh well, I just thought you might be interested :) Wish us luck...


    Regards,

    Trooper
     
  2. Delmar

    Delmar Member

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    Trooper, I wish you the best of luck in turning the politicians into converts. Maybe invite them out to a shooting clinic for the basics? As America seems to very gradually slide into a permission state rather than a right to keep and bear, I see the same possibilities of this happening in the US. I truly hope not.
     
  3. trooper

    trooper Member

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    Nah... can't convert those politicos (not that I want one of them on our range anyway :D ). The only way out is to take the fight to court. I believe that not only common sense but also the law is actually on our side. The problem is that this won't do us much good if we meet the wrong judges.

    Note: I've never shot IPSC so far (yet) but I am convinced that outlawing a popular and growing sport just because some bureaucrats don't like it would be a devastating blow to the whole German shooting community and could set a dangerous judicial precedence.


    Regards,

    Trooper
     
  4. Delmar

    Delmar Member

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    I certainly understand your fears about the situation. Might I suggest you make haste and try your hand at IPSC before its gone forever? As to letting the vermin on your range, you just never know. Some of them might just like it and change their views. Of course, you might have to hold your nose until they warm up to it:D
     
  5. Nightfall

    Nightfall Member

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    Good luck. You're welcome to come on over here and shoot all the ISPC you'd like! :)
     
  6. MrMurphy

    MrMurphy Member

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    Remind them who was in power the last time German bureaucrats started banning guns, and what happened afterwards.
     
  7. trooper

    trooper Member

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    Yeah... that I might do, thanks... :)

    I'm just mightily PO'ed that my country is going down the drain so fast. This is a big one, and we really gotta win it.



    Regards,

    Trooper
     
  8. 0007

    0007 Member

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    This attitude toward the shooting sports on their part is probably in response to some point in the new EU "constipuketion". No self-respecting socialist ( a new oxymoron) wants the serfs to have any way of resisting their dictates.
     
  9. Jeeper

    Jeeper Member

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    Trooper,

    I have a buddy that shoots USPSA here in Houston that works for the German consolate. He always tells us what a pain it is anyway to shoot matches there. He said he ususally goes to austria to shoot. It is a pain for him eventhough he has a license to carry a gun due to his job. Plainly ridiculous.
     
  10. K-Romulus

    K-Romulus Member

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    that's so sad

    the same thing happened in the UK, IIRC, just before the handgun ban. So-called "combat shooting" was deemed antisocial or something.

    Even here in the US, it is illegal for "civilians" :rolleyes: to shoot at any target resembling a human in the state of Massachusetts (this includes silhouettes).:rolleyes:
     
  11. BigG

    BigG Member

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    Um, I've heard that from IPSC shooters here in the USA, too. Hey you don't want to go up against Rod Leatham. He's a bad@ss. :rolleyes:
     
  12. trooper

    trooper Member

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    Yeah, German firearms legislation is an absolute PITA.

    I know some people myself who go to Austria and Switzerland in order to get some defensive training. I would do that myself but unfortunately I live right on the opposite side of Germany... :)

    0007, this has got nothing to do with the new EU constitution (no matter how bad this is :) ), it goes back way further.

    Imagine that, Germany used to be a rather gun-friendly country. If you grew up in a rural area it was quite common for kids to have their own .22, and grandpa would take you out in the woods and teach you how to shoot his old wartime Mauser 98k.

    It all changed in the '70s when Germany was hit by civil unrest and domestic left-wing terrorism. Firearms ownership became heavily restricted because authorities feared that RAF (Red Army Faction) terrorists would obtain weapons from gunshops and seek out professional training courses(obviously, they proved to be wrong).

    By the beginning of the '90s the Green Party and the so-called peace movement had risen, and more and more people felt that the world would be a safer place if only the cops had guns. So most of the population approved when the new Firearms Act tightened its grip on gun owners once more after the school shooting in Erfurt a few years ago.

    Still, a lot of people hunt and shoot in Germany. There's a gun club in almost every small town - who mostly shoot nothing but olympic small-bore and air guns. It is highly politically incorrect to shoot full-bore guns, or (even worse) participate in dynamic shooting sports. Hunters are coming under attack by animal-rights groups, too (mind you, we have a red-green government right now).

    This, in short, is how my country went down the often cited "slippery slope". Don't let it happen to you.


    Trooper
     
  13. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

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    That well and truely sucks. I hope you beat this.

    Only in the mind of a socialist bureaucrat could grown men in spandex and football cleats with compensated race guns be considered "combat training".
     
  14. dance varmint

    dance varmint Member

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    Pretty foreseeable outcome of last year's law. Trim your moustaches to the proper width there, Germans.
     
  15. sturmruger

    sturmruger Member

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    Trooper I hope you guys can put up a good fight. The antis love to slowly chip away at our rights. Too bad they didn't outlaw trap shooting while they were at. Then you would have all those shotgun guys chomping at the bit to help you fight the gun grabbers.
     
  16. SWMAN

    SWMAN Member

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    What I don't understand, whether in Germany or America, how can people think that restricting citizens from arming themselves with guns is going to protect society from terrorists or criminals? The more armed citizens you have the more likely terrorists will think twice about attacking or at the very least they could end up dead at the hands of armed citizens before the cops arrive. Go figure!!!!!
     
  17. LoneStranger

    LoneStranger Member

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    Trooper,
    Would strongly suggest that the people making this decision be brought up before the public and forced to describe in minute detail exactly how they came to THEIR decision. Then attack their reasoning process at each and every point.

    Clowns like this get away with their nonsense because it seems like everyone accepts that they have some lock on being correct at all times. Only when you question them in minute detail do you find how little they might actually know and then you can expose their political agenda.

    How to do it in Germany I can't tell you.

    Best of luck and fate.
     
  18. griz

    griz Member

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    Just out of curiosity, is there a way we can find out which shooting sports are allowed? The reason I ask is I have heard that SASS has a following over there and was wondering if "cowboy IPSC" is considered acceptable.

    Thanks, Griz
     
  19. Treylis

    Treylis Member

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    I've heard that cowboy stuff is real popular over in Germany, as well... gah, I hate playing "I'm more PC than you" when it comes to this kinda stuff.
     
  20. Werewolf

    Werewolf Member

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    I shoot in both CAS and IPSC.

    Other than the weapons used there isn't for all practical purposes a whole lot of difference. The CAS guys are a bit more laid back and into the fun aspect than the IPSC guys who seem to be really really tense a lot and hardcore into the competitive aspect. Both competitions involve running and shooting at various targets in various locations.

    If IPSC is banned I imagine it won't be long before CAS is banned too - afterall the gubmint can't have a John Wayne type deciding "I aint'a gonna hit you pard - [pause for dramatic effect] Like hell I'm not!" can they?
     
  21. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    So? You've got socialist politicians, nicht wahr?
     
  22. Cool Hand Luke 22:36

    Cool Hand Luke 22:36 member

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    I feel for you oppressed European folks but, as a practical matter, there is absolutely nothing I can do to help you. Just thought you'd want to know. Any way, good luck to youse people.
     
  23. trooper

    trooper Member

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    Thanks for your moral support, guys!!

    The funny thing is, CAS (or western shooting, as it's called over here) actually got recognized as a legitimate sport. This might have something to do with the fact that the rulebook has been altered over here to suit Germany's legal situation, but I doubt it. It's still guys running along a course and blasting away AFAIK.

    I suppose grown-up men in cowboy dresses who dig shooting old sixguns and lever-actions just look less threatening than someone who empties his tricked-out autoloader's 20-round mag into five targets within seconds...

    Anyway, as I said I'm sure that this will not be the last word spoken on this matter. IPSC has become quite popular among German shooters, and I sincerely hope that all major shooting associations realize now that the gov't follows a "Divide et impera"-policy.

    Let's just see what happens in court...


    Regards,

    Trooper
     
  24. mete

    mete Member

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    Certainly IPSC started out as training and practice for defensive shooting but has evolved into a sport . But if it is banned then also others should be banned for the same reasons ; fencing, biathlon, pentalthlon, javelin etc.
     
  25. Werewolf

    Werewolf Member

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    And what - pray tell - makes you believe the powers that be in Deutschland are not already considering that? Hmmmmmm????:evil:
     
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