Thin profile barrel, Mauser ???'s

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litman252

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Hello all,
I'm still working on my scout project, at least researching, and stumbled onto the F14 contour barrels by Adams and Bennett.
barrel details

I am wondering what would be the down sides of any to such a barrel?? Woud I stll be able to put a scout scope mount on it??

I am also wondering what is the best way to figure out what mauser I have for sure, it's already converted to .308.

Thanks
Tony
 
For gun identification try the "Harley Nolden's Institute For Firearms Research" forum on this site. He and Jim Keen and the like have helped me out in the past. A good description and pictures if possible and they will most likely give you an answer.
 
litman252,

Are you looking at Adams and Bennett barrels because of price? Or because it is prethreaded, just trying to understand why your looking at these before I comment.

Anyway post a couple of pics of your action so we can try to help you on the ID
 
I am looking at those barrels largely due to price, are they that bad??
I'd like less than 2 MOA
Here is what is on the action, left side of the bolt.
CESKOSLOVENSKA ZBROJOVKA, A.S. BRNO
7.62 Marked in white in front of bolt on top, where the front scope mount would normally go.
Working on the pics..........
Thanks
Tony
 
Tony,

You have a BRNO, is it mititary? The 7.62 is throwing me off, as that was usually a commercial chambering for BRNO.

BRNO are very good actions, some depending on the model are in the top two or three mauser type actions ever made, very desireable and really make a fine rifle with a little work. If its already a .308 does it have ZKK 600 or 601 marked on it anywhere? It also could be a converted VZ-24. If your real lucky it could be a G33/40 but you would see a Nazi eagle on it just at the stock line.

No I am not a real big fan of your barrel choice and now you tell me your working with a BRNO action I am less impressed. Simply they are to nice of action to put that quality barrel on.

First we need to figure out exactly what BRNO you have though, they made large ring and small ring actions and if its a small ring those barrels won't fit anyway, they are too big.

I have several barrels I like, some are a lot more expensive than the one you were looking at, so I won't suggest them. In a good barrel at a reasonable price Douglas makes a good barrel out the door you should have it chambered, crowned, threaded and polished for just over $200. Next step up to a real quality barrel is Lothar Walther and they make pre threaded barrells also, but they are in the $200 price range. They are a real quality barrel though. Shilen makes good barrels also I know they do pre threaded match barrels not sure on the cheaper lines.

Let me caution you about the pre threaded barrels, Adams and Bennett say you can finish them with hand tools. Maybe in theory possible, but very difficult and very easy to hose up your barrel. The pre threaded barrels are short chambered and need a finish reamer run in them, best way to do that is a lathe, unless you have one and access to the reamer I would have this done proffesionally. Just renting the reamer is going to cost you $35-40 and a gunsmith will do it for not a whole lot more than that.

A quote from their site:
As we have mentioned before, a qualified gunsmith should install any of our short-chambered barrels or barrel blanks, finish-ream the chamber, properly headspace and test-fire (or at least be part of the process.

I admit I am a BRNO fan, their not near as common as the used to be and really top quality actions, I have one in my custom rifle que right now. I will true the action, lap the lugs, and polish mine, with a quality barrel and I expect .65-.75 MOA groups from mine, with a your .308 if your careful you might get sub .5 MOA out of it. Since it is a 308 I would put a short stiff tube on it, a #2 or #3 contour with a 20-22" barrel is ideal. One last tricky question? What bullet weights are you planning on shooting, you really should match that up to your barrel twist, in my 308 I shoot 168 gr bullets and my twist is 11 to 1 ( actaully 11 and a small decible ) this is a perfect match of twist to bullet type. If your planning on 180-200 gr bullets the 10-1 is good, and 150 gr and lighter work best with a 12-1.

One last caution old mausers are money sucks, no getting around it, but bad choices in barrels make them really hard to move. When I am buying I will hold to the price of the action value with a Adams and Bennett barrel, if I really liked the action I would add $25.00 to the deal not any more. I know I am a picky old crusty type but there are a lot of us types around.

Here is the Douglas site: http://www.benchrest.com/douglas/
Walther: http://www.lothar-walther.com/us/index.html

I have several custom rifles and own one of each of the above ( and several other high dollar ones also ) both are excellent quality and not going to break your bank roll as these are good value barrels.

If your really trying to save some dollars take a look on Auction Arms or Gunbroker. You can find deals on barrels in the $100 range that need threading and chambering, another good place to look is the benchrest thread want ads. The benchrest guys buy top quality barrels and as soon as they figure there shot out sell them ( translated when they aren't getting .2-.25 MOA groups ) many times you can pick up one of these slightly used barrels cheap, downside is they are usually a heavier contour.

Look for some more markings on your BRNO action, lets figure that out first, letting me know if it is military or commercial will narrow the field a lot. One last question is this a CZ? Does it have a removeable magazine? CZ and BRNO is very confusing unless I go into a long story, they were different, then the same, and now different again. Years of production are the identifiers when figuring it out. Good news is either way these are both good rifles.
 
Here is a pic to see if you can tell what it is.
it is 1.43" across the larger bart of the barrel,
3.444" from front to back of the action opening
Let me know what other pics/info you need.
Thanks much for the info and help.
Tony


f5d10fa3.jpg
 
My login timed out and I lost another post, but in short can you get a better pic of the crest?

RIght now my guess is a pre war BRNO, military contract rifle, its not a CZ.

Also the 7.62 is way after manufacture date, maybe arsenal refinish or retrofit.

The crest will help a lot, but my best guess right now is 1920-1939 . THere were a couple of different models such as M98/22 M98/29 or VZ-23 or VZ-24's.

I wonder if your rifle is a Yugo or Russian arsenal refurb, hence the 7.62.

A good source of information on these is:

http://p077.ezboard.com/fparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforumsfrm6
 
What other markings does it have? I know the IDF converted many CZ Mausers to 7.62, with similar markings. The Spanish converted many of their Mausers, as did several Latin American nations. If you can't get a better pick of the crest, describe it in detail.
 
Oh, that's a neat one. Looks like the Bohemian Lion crest.

Does it have an extra big trigger guard by chance, and an indentation for the bent bolt? It may be a rare late-war K-98k model in that case.

The 7.62 and BRNO marks make me think it's an IDF Mauser. Do you see the Star of David stamped on it anywhere?

I would urge you not to sporterize this rifle unless it's already been hacked up. These are getting harder to find. If it has the extra-large winter trigger guard and is intact, you'd be crazy to cut it up.
 
I'm still leaning towards a rifle sold to the IDF post-war. You might be able to confirm this if you take the rifle apart and check for Sars of David on the metal parts. But OTOH the receiver's Lion was never scrubbed off or replaced and there's no obvious marks on the metal parts above the stock. The IDF wasn't shy about stamping ownership on these Mausers.

Odd. My Mauser Sense is telling me that your overall view is of a carbine, not a full length rifle. I don't have Mauser Military Rifles of the World, but it just feels like I'm looking at a carbine.

For a defininte answer, measure the barrel length, look for and note all stamps and metal marks, and check the sights to see what measuring system is used. You should post these details and your photos over on:

http://p077.ezboard.com/fparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforumsfrm6

They will know for sure. At any rate, I would STRONGLY advise to skip sporterizing on this one. It looks pretty much intact, and there is some collector value in the more unusual variations. I'd suggest getting a raw Mauser receiver and starting with that for a sporter. That way you can control all the elements.
 
Drum roll please..............

And the winning answer is its a Czech BRNO VZ-24, thats a Czechoslavian crest. Who got there hands on it and rebarreled it to a .308 your guess is a good as mine, not stock or original though. You might want to pay attention to how that was converted to a .308 when you get working on it. The VZ-24's were designed for longer cartridges generally, although some were made in 7.65x53, but not for Czech gov't though they were 8x57js.

To verify:

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/4653/vz24.htm

Now what are you going to do with it now that you know what it is? Any decesions on barrels?
 
PS to above post it a crying shame someone used a chisel and a sledge hammer to mark that action " 7.62" that is going to take some serious clean up work. Not impossible just time and or dollars to clean it up.

Why they didn't mark the barrel beats me, but it is what it is. Are you figuring on changing out the bolt handle and the safety also? BTY a good clean VZ-24 is close to $200 by itself, adjust a little upwards for pristine, and down for defects. Anyway its a great action for a custom endevor.
 
Hmm. Cosmo's Mauser sense still tells me that could be a short rifle or carbine along these lines:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976296132.htm

Or it could be a VZ-24 with a stock from a K-98 worth a lot less than $675. But please do please check this out before you hack and slash!

The lack of a winter trigerguard isn't dispositive--it could have been changed when sold to the IDF. Don't do anything to it, even wash it, until you have a positive ID from someone citing hard authorities. Something about it seems different. The handguard is too darn short to be a regular VZ-24, yet the barrel seems short as well. The stock is K-98k pattern, which is odd. As I said it could have been a parts gun, but it doesn't look like one. Do the SN's match? Is there an indentation for the bent bolt on the other side of the stock?
 
More info:

Now to the (EIGHTH) marking. In one line on the side rail Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka A.S. Brno. (Czechoslovakian Arms Factory, Inc., Brno) This is marking #4 without the "VZ.24" because the rifles were not VZ.24's. ((O), page 128, bottom picture) Most had the large stamped one piece trigger guard floorplate and some did not. This was used on 98K German re- worked rifles after WWII. Some had the German model-code and date on the receiver ring and some are blank. I heard that the Bolivian series, B-50, is marked the same way. This is the story of the eighth main Czech. Mauser rifle markings.

http://www.gunboards.com/sites/mrj2003/Czech/Czech.htm
 
Thanks much, you guys have helped a lot.

The barrel is approx 24", stock is cut out for bent bolt. I have not found any numbers that do match yet, the stock also is marked 7.62 at the bottom of the butt. I have not found a Star of David yet, have not removed the stock to look. There is one star on the left of the crest with a J in the middle of it.

As to modify or not I don't know yet. I want a scout with stripper clip guide but if this is worth some money it might be out the door. I would consider keeping it in the safe with some 308 ammo for a SHTF gun if all else fails.
What I really want is a nice short action w/ good barrel cut to 19" with a good light composite stock, scout mount, or backup iron sights atleast.
:)

Thanks again,
Tony
 
Here's my final answer:

Czech K-98k rework, given an unusual full Bavarian crest (indicating it was fully accepted by the Czech government) then sold to Israel and rechambered but possibly never issued by the IDF (which might explain the lack of Isaeli stamps and the intact Czech lion)

Are there numbers scratched out and new ones placed instead? That could be IDF work, or Czech work when the rifle was re-issued. In any case I'd suggest getting more info from the specialty forum and holding off on the hacksaw. It's odd enough I would think you could get $300 for it.
 
I can't stand it any longer, I'm buying one to play with.
Make me an offer, I still need to set up a FFL for an out of state transfer.
Tony

To be fair, it does not feed really well when mag is fully loaded, down a round or 2 all is great.
 
That's a pretty unique rifle, I wouldmn't chop it up either.
I don't think you would have a hard time selling it to a Czech collector, and having enough money left over to buy a shot out vz-24 for your project.

The czech made K98's after the war from leftover parts from their war production under German occupation. Some of these did have milled trigger guards, others, had stamped (winter triggerguards). The receivers usually have German build codes usually DOU or DOT or with postwar builds, the codes are often simply ground off, The lion crest is often found on rifles made in the 1930s especially VZ-24s, I find it odd that it would be on a receiver made during WWII or after. The stoc is a late war design without a hole cut in the stock to accomodate a cleaning rod, stamped bands, and a hole drilled in the buttplate instead of a 'takedown donut' in the stock for disassembling the bolt.

What might have happened was an IDF armorer had a pile of receivers to rebarrel, selected a 1930s vz-24 receiver, screwed on a barrel, then selected a stock that happened to be a late war/post war Czech stock. But that is just a wasg on my part.
 
To be fair, it does not feed really well when mag is fully loaded, down a round or 2 all is great.

That's one of the bugaboos of converting a military mauser to a different length cartridge. If the geometry of the receiver rails and feed ramp aren't modified to suit the new cartridge, the rounds often won't feed from certain positions in the magazine.
 
While I don't know for certain, I believe Cosmoline's guess is correct. I have an FN Mauser that was Israeli converted to 7.62 NATO...the stamping on the front receiver ring is EXACTLY the same.

Sadly I bought mine in the late 80's when they were selling them for $80 in Shotgun News. I sporterized mine -- turned out nice -- but of course now I wish I wouldn't have since they are difficult to find in good shape.

Oh well, live and learn.

I don't have a close up but she's in with some of her stablemates...the scoped rifle 6th from the bottom

Family_portrait.jpg
 
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I'd put my money on...

it being an Israeli reworked Mauser. Lots of those came into this country in the 1990's, and they all sported that humongous "7.62" marking on the receiver ring. A friend of mine has one, I'll have to take pictures and show the similarity in markings and configuration.
 
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