Things you have been possibly "misinformed" on

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Yup, I would have loved to have written "right" instead of "hobby". But over here we don't have the the 2nd Amendment. :(

Well, darn it! I failed to notice the "Finland" part!

I've never researched Finland laws on gun ownership, but I have looked at the UK history on such.

English common law, going back to the early 1100's, established armed citizenry (freemen) as a duty. This back in the days prior to professional armies.

And it remained so pretty much up until the time of James II, who decided that this did not apply to Protestants. Enter the "English Bill of Rights" (short title), circa 1689, which restored the right of Protestants to be armed again. In fact, some have referred to the particular portion of this bill of rights as analogous to the USA's Second Amendment. However, the two are worded quite differently...and as those living in the UK have discovered, that wording allows their government to virtually regulate the ownership of firearms by its citizens any way they wish.

"That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law."

Note that it discusses arms for Protestants, but ONLY for "defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law".

In other words..."you can have guns, but only as far as the government allows you to have guns."

Which is exactly what got the Protestants into their gunless state in the first place.

So the British do NOT have a right to own firearms...they only have whatever PRIVILEGE their government extends to them as they see fit.

Quite a bit of difference.


I'll have to research Finland now...you've got my interest stirred!
 
So the British do NOT have a right to own firearms...they only have whatever PRIVILEGE their government extends to them as they see fit.

Under the theory or natural rights espoused by Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence (all men are endowed with certain unalienable rights), all men, including the British, have the same rights including the right to own firearms as we do. What all men do not have is the privilege of having certain rights constitutionally protected.
 
Under the theory or natural rights espoused by Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence (all men are endowed with certain unalienable rights), all men, including the British, have the same rights including the right to own firearms as we do. What all men do not have is the privilege of having certain rights constitutionally protected.

Dingdingdingding!

Give that man a Kewpie Doll!

(Though I was talking about a legal right.)
 
(Though I was talking about a legal right.)

I know, but "legal right" is an oxymoron. A right exists or does not and law doesn't change that. All law can do is impose limits on the exercise of existing rights. In a free state, all is allowed except what is restricted. Unfortunately for many, their government operate by the opposite premise and all is restricted except what is allowed.
 
I know, but "legal right" is an oxymoron. A right exists or does not and law doesn't change that. All law can do is impose limits on the exercise of existing rights. In a free state, all is allowed except what is restricted. Unfortunately for many, their government operate by the opposite premise and all is restricted except what is allowed.

Well, I look at it this way:

We make much ado historically with "inalienable rights" or "natural rights". However, "natural rights". as we call them, aren't anything more than a extractions and extrapolations from the observations of the behavioral patterns exhibited by the critters in the environment around us and how we interpret them.

It's a way of "justifying" the existence of a right by somehow saying that it pre-exists in nature and therefore cannot be denied because of that.

And honestly, I find that to be bogus unless the precept is accompanied by some religious context in which there is a creator which "endowed" us with these "inalieanable rights".

(And please...I'm not trying to hijack this into a religious discussion. If it looks like it's going to go that way, I'll simply delete this comment in deference to the topic of the string at hand.)

"Rights" are, in the end, what we SAY they are and what we MAKE them to be. They have absolutely no meaning outside of human experience.

A "natural right" is defined by the apparent laws of nature and is also species specific. Where we can say that every living creature has a "right" to live its life as its nature defines its behavior and place in the environment, we can also say that a specific creature in that environment, such as a lion, has the "right" to kill prey species in order to survive. Likewise, we can say that a male moose has a "right" to exercise dominance over multiple cows because that is the observed behavior of moose.

In like fashion, we could also say that it is a natural right of humans to kill other species because this is our nature and place in the environment. We could also say that it is a natural right of males to exercise dominance over females for the same reason we would in the example of moose behavior.

I said above that rights are also "species specific"...meaning they do not and CANNOT be applied equally across the board to all species. The gazelle has a "right" to live...but it also has a "right" to die for the lion, who consumes the gazelle while exercising its "right" to live.

We say that we have these abstract "rights", such as "freedom of press" (which didn't exist before the concept of "press" came about), the "right to vote" (which didn't exist before the concept of group consensus came about), and the "right not to quarter troops in peace time" (which didn't exist until the concept of a standing army came about), and so forth essentially because we are capable of conceiving such abstract concepts in the first place.

In the end, these are rights because we say they are and we MAKE them so. If we do not say they are and we do not make them so, then they are NOT rights.

The universe at large, however, doesn't care one wit about "rights" any more than it cares about the concept of "fair".
 
"Rights" are, in the end, what we SAY they are and what we MAKE them to be. They have absolutely no meaning outside of human experience.

Exactly. Rights or laws are created by a consensus of a given population. If the majority of that population changes their mind then laws will change.
  • The US constitution is just a set of laws that we agree require a super majority to change.
  • The Declaration of Independence was simply the justification the the colonies gave to rise up in insurrection against the King of England. The only reason it is even known today is because the colonies won the war. If the colonies had lost the Declaration of Independence would have gone into the dustbin of history just like the manifestos of so many other failed revolutions.

There is nothing magical about these documents. They were created by men and have power because the American people say they do. They are important to US citizens but are irrelevant to the rest of the world.
 
Political discussion aside, I apparently was told today at work that they could search my truck for guns if they wanted to because company policy says no guns on company property. I went to my immediate manager (hr manager) and had him call a local judge and ask his opinion...company policy changed today. Guns are required to be secured in a locked container, and a locked vehicle is a locked container.
 
An individual is a free citizen. An isolated individual, in contact with no other person, has unlimited and unrestricted liberty to do whatever he/she is physically of doing. Anything and everything is permissible, though not everything is possible and certainly not everything is profitable to the individual's well being.

When one free individual comes in contact with another free individual, something has to be worked out between the two so that there is mutual respect for each other's rights to "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness". If the two are to live together in harmony, they must mutually agree to allow their individual liberties to be restricted to some extent.

If a large number of individual are involved, the agreements and compromises may be codified and a system set up whereby the agreements may be administered fairly and justly. For example, a Constitution that establishes a constitutional government.

Since the individual is inherently free, All governmental authority derives from the authority that the individuals give to the government. The government exists and governs by the consent of the governed. Government therefore can never give anything to the people, it can only take from them, and then it can only take what it is allowed to take.

One major problem we have today is that too many people seem to think that government is the implement of an all-powerful entity known as "society" and that everything flows from the government to the individual. Many have been taught that this is the way it works, and many find it convenient to believe because such belief absolves them of any personal responsibility.

This is not the case. A society is made up of individuals, and the action of a society is the sum total of the actions of the individual members. Society can't force the individuals to comply with arbitrary rules and regulations, though society may make it easier for the individual to choose to comply rather than resist. It is still a matter of individual choice: No one ever does anything that they do not choose to do even though they may not be aware of making the choice.
 
How about the whole concept of stopping power being important? It matters where you hit someone and how many times, not the caliber.
Bogus. No factor is unimportant, from caliber and placement to bullet weight, bullet construction, impact velocity, etc..
 
I find it interesting that some on a firearms forum don't consider the 2A a right, inalienable, and which has nothing to do with men's interpretation of it's existence.

And, treading lightly, I see that those who do possess a concept of a Creator seem to be saying that the right exists, where others contend it's simply an extension of what social laws exist among men.

In which case the Constitution as a document can be questioned - it's just a social agreement, if the majority choose to give away your rights, you then have none.

I believe we went thru this already and found that the concept is false. One effort to correct that arose out of a disagreement among the Federated collection of states that the whole would be the more important, and the latter subordinate where the Constitution didn't spell it out.

That is why we no longer have slavery. There is no right to own another human being. That individual has inalienable rights - and tossing them under the bus of "social agreements" is exactly why we no longer support it.

Do I have the right to own you?

If I should make the effort to exert dominion over you, and you choose to deny me my right, how then will you protect yourself from my goal? Is that not exactly what our forefathers faced when the British Crown deemed us rebellious subjects, even to the point of hiring German mercenaries to enforce Royal possession of His Subjects?

Are the King's Rights superior to yours? I disagree, and so did those thinkers who based their efforts on an Inalienable Right that exists beyond the imposition of other men.

It's exactly the sort of thing the anti gunners are preaching, guys, and it seems you bought it hook line and sinker. And that is why it's not surprise that there have been citizens in NY and CT who complied with the unConstitutional statutes that say they most register, turn in, or destroy their firearms.

Having a majority on the Court doesn't make it a right, it already existed. When the Court decided on Heller, they recognized that the history of the 2A was founded on there being an inalienable right, that others who preceeded them recognized it, and the Founding Fathers spelled it out.

Words have meaning. While some don't care to do the forensics of translation into modern English, I can offer one on the 2A, which should clarify the misconceptions around it being a negotiable right:

'This my gun, many are like it, but this one is mine. If you try to harm me, I may choose to use it in defense. If you try to take it away from me, I will relinquish it when you pry my cold dead fingers from it."

Inalienable has a much more significant meaning to some than others. If you care to toss it aside as something to be bargained away because others don't agree you should exercise, it, look to those countries who have and see if that is the kind of life you really want to have - a subject of a restrictive social compact that imposes someone else's will on you.

A slave.

You sure you want that? Review where there are misconceptions about your rights. Some of us take it as an absolute. Not something to fritter away for a mess of pottage.
 
/devil's advocate
But the UK can do it while being urban as opposed to some of the states you listed. If nobody is around it is harder to be murdered.

Here in Finland, we're killing each other all the time (2.2 per 100,000). We have a very low population density at around 15 people per Km2. But high gun ownership and some social problems with alcohol.
 
I find it interesting that some on a firearms forum don't consider the 2A a right, inalienable, and which has nothing to do with men's interpretation of it's existence. <br />
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And, treading lightly, I see that those who do possess a concept of a Creator seem to be saying that the right exists, where others contend it's simply an extension of what social laws exist among men.

There are a least 2 problems with the claim of natural rights bestowed by a higher power that are superior to laws created by men.

1. People have to not only agree that a higher power exists but also agree on who that higher power is. A person's claim of a right bestowed by a creator mean nothing to another person who does not acknowledge the existence of that creator.

2. Even if everyone can agree on a creator they then need to agree on what rights where bestowed by that creator.

It is plain to see by the huge numbers of completing religions and denominations that there is no agreement.

In which case the Constitution as a document can be questioned - it's just a social agreement, if the majority choose to give away your rights, you then have none.
That is exactly what the US Constitution is. It is a document written and agreed upon by men in the 18th century. The writers acknowledged that it may need to be changed in the future so they included rules to make future changes.
 
Rights result from Might, but individual Might does not make Right when the Mighty agree what is a Right. There is no need for metaphysical explanations to rationalize using Might to create Rights unless a people are insecure in their belief they have the Right to use their Might. I always find it hilarious Thomas Jefferson implied a creator endowed rights when he was far from being a religious man. Of course he was aware of the political necessity of doing that.
 
I find it interesting that some on a firearms forum don't consider the 2A a right, inalienable, and which has nothing to do with men's interpretation of it's existence.

And, treading lightly, I see that those who do possess a concept of a Creator seem to be saying that the right exists, where others contend it's simply an extension of what social laws exist among men.

In which case the Constitution as a document can be questioned - it's just a social agreement, if the majority choose to give away your rights, you then have none.

I believe we went thru this already and found that the concept is false. One effort to correct that arose out of a disagreement among the Federated collection of states that the whole would be the more important, and the latter subordinate where the Constitution didn't spell it out.

That is why we no longer have slavery. There is no right to own another human being. That individual has inalienable rights - and tossing them under the bus of "social agreements" is exactly why we no longer support it.

Do I have the right to own you?

If I should make the effort to exert dominion over you, and you choose to deny me my right, how then will you protect yourself from my goal? Is that not exactly what our forefathers faced when the British Crown deemed us rebellious subjects, even to the point of hiring German mercenaries to enforce Royal possession of His Subjects?

Are the King's Rights superior to yours? I disagree, and so did those thinkers who based their efforts on an Inalienable Right that exists beyond the imposition of other men.

It's exactly the sort of thing the anti gunners are preaching, guys, and it seems you bought it hook line and sinker. And that is why it's not surprise that there have been citizens in NY and CT who complied with the unConstitutional statutes that say they most register, turn in, or destroy their firearms.

Having a majority on the Court doesn't make it a right, it already existed. When the Court decided on Heller, they recognized that the history of the 2A was founded on there being an inalienable right, that others who preceeded them recognized it, and the Founding Fathers spelled it out.

Words have meaning. While some don't care to do the forensics of translation into modern English, I can offer one on the 2A, which should clarify the misconceptions around it being a negotiable right:

'This my gun, many are like it, but this one is mine. If you try to harm me, I may choose to use it in defense. If you try to take it away from me, I will relinquish it when you pry my cold dead fingers from it."

Inalienable has a much more significant meaning to some than others. If you care to toss it aside as something to be bargained away because others don't agree you should exercise, it, look to those countries who have and see if that is the kind of life you really want to have - a subject of a restrictive social compact that imposes someone else's will on you.

A slave.

You sure you want that? Review where there are misconceptions about your rights. Some of us take it as an absolute. Not something to fritter away for a mess of pottage.

Well, let's start with "inalienable" with respect to the U.S. Constitution. Where, pray tell, is that word or concept used in it's wording? It's not. It's only mentioned in the Declaration of Independence.

If the wording or concepts defined/outlined in the Constitution is to be considered "inalienable", then none of them can be changed. Yet we clearly have a Constitution which ALLOWS us to amend it. Indeed, we've done so a number of times, even going so far as to amend it in order to eliminate a previous amendment.

A right, whether we call it "inalienable" or not, is ONLY a right when we SAY it's a right and we ENFORCE it as a right. This includes the Second Amendment that we all (I presume, given the forum we're all in) cherish and adore.

The issue with slavery is, indeed, and interesting one. But the FACTS of history show that at one time there was indeed a RIGHT to own slaves...many times and in many cultures, in fact. It was LEGAL. And those slave thus had ONLY what little rights were allowed to them under the laws and customs of the lands in which they lived in.

If they could not exercise those "rights" we claim to apply to every person, then they do NOT, in fact, HAVE those rights.


Like anything else, if we allow society to "devolve", then slavery is a very real legal potential again.


This is why people like us fight tooth and nail for the rights we perceive to be just and fair. We hold the concepts to be as absolute as possible in order to secure our freedoms, because to do otherwise is to lose those freedoms.
 
Pleasant explanations, but the misconception is that a right is something only the human mind can conceive and is entirely an arguable concept.

For others of us, an inalienable right exists even if their were no humans to enjoy it. It that context, there can be no real discussion of whether others are willing to recognize it or not - it exists, regardless, and cannot be explained away.

That there are dozens of religions in the world that may or may not embrace that concept goes to the convolutions of the human mind attempting to avoid what truths exist and accept others for their own benefit. In the search for absolute truth, it's always arguable. That's why they are called faiths - because nothing about them can be proven.

You pick yours, I'll choose mine. How that then applies to the 2d Amendment then boils down to this: "Yours" is negotiable and subject to the whims of the majority, mine is absolute and non negotiable whatsoever.

This is where the NRA catches some flak for it's stance. Well, take it in this light - when dealing with those who want to restrict the 2A, there is no negotiation, anymore than the US negotiates with terrorists.

If the majority can impose their will on the minority, don't expect the minority to take it well. There can and will be unintended consequences, King George spent a lot of money on it and he didn't get his way. Those who held that their rights were absolute held their ground and carried the day.

Now, we have apologists who deem that their can't be absolute rights as clearly outlined in the Declaration of Independence, just because they won't accept that a Creator can and did make them, for us to enjoy. I ascribe that view to the breakdown of society as we experience it today. It wasn't in question 50 years ago, now, it's taken for granted anybody else's view is "equally" valid.

The reality is that is just an exercise in free speech, and in the marketplace of ideas, the individual is still responsible to sort out which ones are grounded. So, the comparison then goes to the First Amendment - since it's the same logic, do you have a right to free speech? Because if it's all just a negotiated compact among men, then it's not absolute.

That means if the majority wishes, you might be directed to no longer express your views on the issue. You will be told what you can say.

But, for those who see rights as created by a Supreme Being, that absolute right to speech never goes away. So, I'm supporting your right to say I don't have an absolute right, and you are supporting the road to be denied completely of the right to free speech, or the right to bear arms.

You may question the idea of an absolute right, but it's existence is exactly what allows you to do that. Without it, you don't get to, and it would be no different than any other totalitarian or criminal state.

To those of us who see rights as inalienable and absolute, our definition continues to protect your exercise to think and say differently. The alternative is to lose all your rights in the long run. That goes to the misconception that mankind is always striving to a higher better goal, when the reality is that we are continually degrading society to fulfill our baser desires. It's a simple lesson in history, we haven't been piling up succeeding generations of higher civilizations, just increasing their technical capability. Wars still go on, poverty still exists, disease and injury remain common. People starve, despots still "cleanse" their populations of opposing points of view.

If you don't have an absolute to measure against, you don't have any idea of where you are and how far off the mark. If it's all a negotiation of selfish interests, then what right do others have to oppose our view?

Just shoot them all and be done with it? Unless, of course, you think they have a right to live. In which case, why? It's not absolute, just the current mindset of the majority and entirely whatever we all decide.

By the moral compass that no right is absolute, it then justifies the school shooter as being acceptable, just the same as pedophilia or slavery. It's just a minority opinion, of course, but in a world view that all are "equally" valid, isn't diversity and tolerance the goal?

If all you see is a grey fog, maybe it goes to perspective and focus. Look closer, and things become black and white. Just because some can't or won't accept a right as absolute doesn't mean it isn't. It's really a much bigger discussion of metaphysics and that means we then have to get to the real root of the question, how did we get here in the beginning?

Lots of misconceptions about that. The first is understanding that a Creator isn't bound by the laws he has set into motion. We are, but "he" isn't. Therefore, if I understand that a Creator can absolutely create anything and everything, including physics, math, and concepts, and others can't accept that, then there it is - the root of the problem.

Your Creator isn't as powerful as mine. Sorry. :D

We are straying quite off the OP's premise - firearms related is the focus.
 
We are straying quite off the OP's premise - firearms related is the focus.

It's great to be able to discuss something like this intelligently with someone, thank you!

But you are "right"...we stray too far from the topic at hand. Perhaps we'll carry this on again another more appropriate time and place.

:)
 
If the following is true:

1. There are natural rights outside the laws of man
2. The founders agreed that natural rights exist
3. The ownership and use of firearms is one of these rights.

Why did the founders bother drafting, passing, and ratifying the first 10 amendments? Seems like a lot of work to simply state what everyone already knew to be true.

It is also interesting to note that what we now call the bill of rights originally contained 12 amendments. The states only agreed to and ratified 10 of them. What we know today as the 2nd amendment was the 4 the on the list. The 2nd was not ratified until 1992 and is now known as the 27th amendment.
 
If the following is true:

1. There are natural rights outside the laws of man
2. The founders agreed that natural rights exist
3. The ownership and use of firearms is one of these rights.

Why did the founders bother drafting, passing, and ratifying the first 10 amendments? Seems like a lot of work to simply state what everyone already knew to be true.

It is also interesting to note that what we now call the bill of rights originally contained 12 amendments. The states only agreed to and ratified 10 of them. What we know today as the 2nd amendment was the 4 the on the list. The 2nd was not ratified until 1992 and is now known as the 27th amendment.

It was a lot of work. I think they did it to try to provide a written document for future generations to use as reference when trying to defend the rights it was intended to help protect.
Yes -- to respond to the thought many will have -- the gov. has done a lot to circumvent the rights and to redefine the 2A, (and other rights) as we know.
But imagine how much faster, and how much easier, it might have been had there been no written document.
The founders knew things tended toward statism and rights eroded. They knew they'd be helpless to stop it, but hoped we would fight against it. To that end they "armed" us with the original documents.
 
JSH1 said:
If the following is true:

1. There are natural rights outside the laws of man
2. The founders agreed that natural rights exist
3. The ownership and use of firearms is one of these rights.

Why did the founders bother drafting, passing, and ratifying the first 10 amendments? Seems like a lot of work to simply state what everyone already knew to be true.

James Madison, the principal author of the Constitition saw no need for a Bill of Rights to protext the rights of individuals as, in his view, the authority of the national government created by the Constitution did not reach the individual. The national government he envisioned governed relations between the states and between the federation of states and other countries. It did not govern relations between individuals or between individulas and the states in which they resided.

A significant number feared that the powers vested in the national government could be abused and the government could overreach its authority to the detriment of state authority and individual rights unless strict limitations were imposed to protect them. There was enough opposition to deny ratification so a Bill of Rights was promised as the first act of the new government in exchange for ratification.

The amendments comprising the Bill of Rights were introduced in the House which, being representatives of the people, focused on individual rights. When they reached the Senate, which represented the states, several were modified to give stronger protection to state authority. The 4th amendment (now known as the 2nd) was one that was so modified. House versions stated individual needs such as self-defense and hunting, but the Senate felt these were obvious and unquestionable and chose to focus on the needs of the states for an armed citizenry (the militia), knowing that as along as the right of the people to be armed for their personal needs was protected, the states need for a militia would be protected as well.

What was most feared at the time, was a standing national army that could serve the national government to enforce its will on the states so the ability of the states to call on a militia in defense against such power was paramount. And requiring the national government to call upon the states to provide troops for national service in time of need further enhances the states control over the military power of the national government.

The reason the founders didn't directly address the things we are most concerned with is that they had a different piorotiy of concerns to address.
 
Back to the question at hand.

I was taught in school that water was incompressible. Flow Inc in Kent Washington gets around 12% compression with their water jet machines

I loved the link about just what lifts an airplane up!


Cat
 
Back to the question at hand.

I was taught in school that water was incompressible. Flow Inc in Kent Washington gets around 12% compression with their water jet machines

I loved the link about just what lifts an airplane up!


Cat

Well...EVERYTHING is compressible; it's a matter of perspective, or "relative to what". There are whole studies on this field with respect to materials, design, and construction, not to mention ultra high pressure theories and research.

Not to mention astrological objects like neutron stars and black holes, which take the concept to extremes.

Water, as a fluid, is incompressible compared to gases. The phrase "for all practical purposes" comes to mind.

:)
 
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