Thinking about a $300 rifle .... (AK47 vs Cetme)

[akanotken]

I'm thinking about getting a $300 semi that would be mostly for plinking/fun. While these aren't the nicest rifles built, they seem to offer a lot of value for a little $$$$ and that always turns my head. So help me compare.

I'm thinking a gunshow purchase. Looking for the SAR1 AK variant, vs the CETME. I'll handle the merchandise and avoid the lemons that the "drunk monkeys at Century"* occasionally produce if I go the 308 route. How many of you all own both? Which do you prefer? Or, if you were buying both, which would you start with? How bout starting a 39 vs 51 thread? (As in 7.62x39 vs 7.62x51)

Additional Info: I've shot neither, but I lean towards the AK. Lighter rifle, cheaper ammo, and it feels like everyone ought to own one sometime or other. Short stock fits me well. Then I get to remembering that satisfying UMPHHHH of the 308 round... Feels like everyone ought to own at least one rifle in 308. Also, I think my AR (currently my lone rifle) would be more friendly with the Spanish rifle than with any commie bloc weapon

Future plans: Second entry in 3 gun matchs. Would be just for fun ... Run the match once as an American with a AR15/Hi Power/1100 combo. Then enter again as a FOREIGNER with a AK or Cetme/p99(all german)/Saiga SG

And yes, Future Future plans might include owning both, or if I get the AK, I might opt for a bolt 308. But that's another day and another thread.

* from a thread I was reading earlier, here or in TFL. If interested, you can search on "drunk monkeys". There shouldn't be too many hits on that

 

[Destructo6]

I'd go AK first. If .308 was still itching a little later, as it's sure to, a FAL would be higher on the list than the CETME.

 

[Stickjockey]

I'm not an expert on either one, but based on what I've heard, I'd have to ditto Destructo's advice. Another way you might try is building your own. Check out The FAL Files. Lots of good advice and discussion, mostly centering around, well, the FN FAL. If you work it right and have somweone close that can lend you the tools, just a bit over $300 will get you a decent FAL. The other advantage is that you can do it in stages As the cash comes in.

 

[boing]

Off the shelf, a $300 CETME or FAL will have a much greater chance of being a lemon than a $300 AK.

 

[BevrFevr]

I have the drunken monkey ak

Twisted front sight etc etc but it works every time I pull the trigger. I recommend them to everyone.

I've always wanted a .308 as well. A DSA would be most excellent but expensive. And If I were ever to have to carry a weapon all day everyday it would be either an AK an AR or something even smaller.

Get a bolt action .308 that way you can get every last drop of goodness out of the cartridge.

-bevr

 

[pinetree64]

I bought a SAR-1 and owned it for a month. I was able to select mine from a large batch. It didn't have trigger slap or canted gas tubes or sights. It was a tank. It was cool, but not my thing. The accuracy was paper-plate at 100yds.

The Cetme has some QC issues. Rumors of grinding bolts to get in spec. I looked at them this past weekend at a GS in Georgia, they look great, but I passed. American Riflemen seemed to like them.

I'd opt for a SAR-3 with Weigner magazines. I really like the SAR-2's, but I worry about the future availability of the 5.45x39. One thing about all these rifle is that I think their sights stink.

I sold mine and but a pistol and an M48 Mauser.

tjg

 

[geojap]

Go with an AK. Even a cheap SAR 1 will function very well, where most CETMEs I've seen, that come from Century, are complete garbage. I sold my CETME off because the bolt and gas piston wouldn't cycle back properly and get bound up. I probably could have fixed it, but the whole thing looked like it had been welded together by a cross-eyed monkey. The welds and pieces were not attached in a straight manner.

 

[akanotken]

Thanks for the advice guys

I like the idea of starting with the AK. Who am I kidding, I'm likely to add a 308 in the future and I can decide semi battle rifle vs accurate bolt then.

Just saw a local SA85M go up for sale, and there should be a gunshow soon. As a rule, I try not to rush these things. I truly believe looking is half the fun, and a good excuse to shoot a lot of friends guns

The idea of building an inexpensive FAL is starting to worm it's way through my thick skull. I assumed they were all more than I wanted to spend. A good friend just started a FAL kit (DSA). So I'll have an inside line on advice and tools. However, my brief visit to site mentioned above didn't show me anything close to the $300 range? Can you get me started lookin in the right place? A particular reciever or kit?

 

[hksw]

"I sold my CETME off because the bolt and gas piston..."

Huh?

 

[geojap]

For your first FAL build, you won't be able to build one for $300 because you'll have to invest in tools. Unless you can borrow someone elses. And for $300, you'll be getting the cheapest FAL parts available, like Century parts. It will cost you more like $500 to build a decent one. Have you looked at Saiga's? They offer a .308 that has gotten very good reviews. The mags only hold 10 rounds, and some people don't like that. But a .308 is a much better round than the 7.62x39. If you get a SAR-1, just watch out for that canted front sight. Cetmes are just pure crap though, unless you get lucky and find one that actually shoots well.

My personal choice for a battlerifle is the FAL. But I have a DSA. I got an SA-58 new for $800, which was a great deal. I love it. But to get a good rifle, you're probably going to have to spend good money. Whatever you do, good luck. Like you said, taking your time to get a good one that you will be happy with is half the fun.

 

[geojap]

hksw,
yeah, the piston would get bound up in the gas chamber, failt to eject the round after firing, and I'd have to grab the charging handle and bang it on the firing bench to get the piston to cycle the bolt and eject the round. It would get bound up really tight so I couldn't cycle the spent round with my hands pulling the charging handle.

 

[Destructo6]

HKsw is probably confused about the gas piston comment because HKs and CETMEs are not gas operated, and therefore, have no gas piston.

It sounds as though your gun had a very rough chamber that didn't allow the rifle to extract. This is actually rather common with the newly made Federal Arms barrels.

 

[geojap]

Sorry, I guess I don't know what the right term is for that. I assumed it was the same as an AK since they are both blowback designs. Piston, op-rod, rod, ummm, what is it?

 

[BevrFevr]

Aks are gas operated

HKs(cetme) are recoil operated thats why they kick. Friend of mine drilled with German military and He said that after a day of firing these weapons (esp. full auto) that the right side of their faces would be black and blue.

Another Friend with an HK91 got a black eye shooting his. He forgot about the recoil.

Gas operated weapons are generally much milder to shoot.

-bevr

 

[Destructo6]

The little tube-like thing that comes out of the front of the bolt carrier on HKs is the "Bolt Carrier Extension." Along with the cocking handle support and cocking handle, its used to manually open the action. The rifle would function fine without it, though it would be dang tough to open the action.

AKs are strictly gas-operated. They use a long stroke piston design.

HKs are roller-delayed blowback operated. They have no gas system of any king.

They are completely different.

Odd, I haven't found HKs to be harder kickers than any other .308 battle rifle.

 

[hksw]

"Odd, I haven't found HKs to be harder kickers than any other .308 battle rifle."

Same here. Out of all of my military-type actioned rifles, the .308 WIN Super Vepr (AK/RPK action) seems to kick the most, the CETME the least.

 

[akanotken]

From my studies of shotgunning, I'd say recoil is a hard thing to figure out. There's the pure recoil, with factors such as bullet weight, speed, rifle weight and probably a few more things I'm forgeting. Recoil can be measured as a the volume under a curve. Then there's the percieved recoil with factors such as gas/recoil operation, gun fit, gun mount, etc. Percieved recoil can be affected by many things, including the shape of the above curve.

It hurts my brain to think about it too much. I can remember someone doing an experiment using shotgun loads with fast burning vs slow burning powders. Otherwise same (gun, payload, shooter, etc) Out of numerous people tested they ended up in a pretty even split. My take away was that percieved recoil is made up of many factors, not the least of which is the perception of the shooter

I've already heard differing opinions as to the recoil levels in G3, FAL and Cetme. I figure if I'm lucky enough to shoot them all, I can draw my own conclusions. But as I don't think any of them are unmanageble, I don't think that would affect my choice. Cost on the other hand .....

 

[john l]

I would go with the AK in the SAR 1. ( 762x39) for the following reasons:
1) total reliability
2) mags are cheap and plentiful, and they pretty much all work.
3) ammo is cheap. 90 bucks for a 1000 rounds of steel case wolf-and by the way, it is probably more accurate than the barrel.
4) A CETME is NOT an FAL. Don't ever confuse the two.
CETMEs do not have the same strenth as an FAL as far as the 308 NATO round goes. the normal 308 nato beats up the gun so fast it's not even funny. FALs have a much more robust design and have a much better track record of reliability.
5) you are talking about the same degree of accuracy in both rifles, cetme vs ak.
I have a SAR 1 and for what it is, it is the gun that you can really start customizing, like a decent trigger, and nice furniture, and peep sights ( I have one from Krebs custom-its wonderful), and then there is nicer mounts available for the red dots and scopes, so you have the ability with the SAR to customize, as opposed to the CETME.
When you are ready for a 308, the FAL is a great option. Cheap mags, nice accesories available. let someone else buy a CETME.
john l

 

[Dave R]

In the spirit of diversity...here is an different opinion on some of the statements in this thread.

One of the virtues of the CETME is that is has very soft recoil for a .308. It is loud, but soft on the shoulder. Prolly a combination of a decent muzzle brake and a roller-locking system than unlocks sooner (at higher pressure) than the HK. That's why CETME's recoil less than HK's. My CETME recoil is about like my .223 AK recoil. Its just louder. Easy to keep on target for multiple shots.

Once a CETME has the Century bugs taken out of it, it is a pretty accurate rifle. Both Cruffler.com and the _American Rifleman_ reviews have experience similar to mine...2MOA with the iron sights. Which I like a little better than the FAL sights, but that's a matter of taste. I find it easy to shoot the CETME accurately with the irons. I rarely shoot it at 100 yards cuz its boring. 200+ makes me work a little. Folks at the CETME forum who scope theirs say they get 1MOA groups fairly regularly. My personal belief is that a stock CETME is a bit more accurate than a stock FAL, but that's based on my biased experience (little with FAL, more with CETME) and on on-line reports I have read.

Not to say you should get a CETME over an AK. I agree that an out-of-the-box AK is likelier to be trouble-free than an out-of-the-box CETME, but if you can pick a good CETME, or are willing to de-bug one, its a fine rifle. I shopped CETME vs. FAL pretty hard, picked a nice CETME, and have enjoyed it ever since.

 

[Destructo6]

4) A CETME is NOT an FAL. Don't ever confuse the two.
CETMEs do not have the same strenth as an FAL as far as the 308 NATO round goes. the normal 308 nato beats up the gun so fast it's not even funny. FALs have a much more robust design and have a much better track record of reliability.

I've neither heard nor experienced that. Why would 7.62 NATO beat up a CETME or HK at an alarming rate?

The roller-delayed blowback design has a better record in sand and freezing temps than the FAL.

 

[scottsw1]

It's a pretty hard choice on what to buy so I have both. I bought the Cetme about 2 years ago when the were going for about $600 and got a deal of buying it for $539. My rifle has a serial number of less than 2000 and has the cast receiver. My Cetme is a great rifle but had to back to Century because it had the problem of shooting about 8 inches to the left at 50 yards. After Century fixed my rifle, it was performed flawlessly. I love the Cetme and haven't added anything to the rifle. Total cost=$539.

I have a SAR-1 that I bought about 1 1/2 years ago for $300. Although my SAR-1 has never needed to go back to Century for repair, it did need a few add-ons to make it a little nicer to shoot. First add-on was a longer butt-stock. SAR-1s must be made for small guys because it was really short and I'm only 5'10" so I'm not the tallest guy myself. I replaced the wood stock and handguards with the KVAR US made green stock set that is about an 1 1/4 inch longer and this really helped. Next to fix the trigger slap problem, I installed a Gordon Tech fire control group and it gave the rifle a much better trigger that didn't have any slap. I also plan on buying a Red Star adapter plate to replace the sheppards hook and it cost about $12. Cost so far= $300 for rifle, $40 for trigger, $80 for stock=$420 total.

Right now AK and Cetme mags go for about the same price. Ammo is a little cheaper for the AK. Cleaning the AK is takes alot less time than the Cetme.

Bottom line is that they are both plinkers. My Cetme gets shot more than the SAR, but if you have or might buy an SKS since they both take the same ammo you might lean that way.

I say to save up and buy both. Good Luck.