Thinking About Shooting High Power Prone - Your Advice Appreciated

[Okie_Poke]

Hello all. I am considering shooting a few (or as many as I can make) midrange prone matches at my local gun club this year. I have a couple of questions and would appreciate some advice from those of you who shoot or have shot in such things.

My club hosts two midrange prone matches: (i) a 3x600 each month, and (ii) a 300, 500, 600 every three months. I am interested in shooting either or both of those matches as often as I can make them. My immediate questions mostly concern which category/class I should shoot in and some gear-related stuff that depends on the answer to the "which category" question.

The rifle I plan to use for this (mis)adventure is a Bergara B14 HMR chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor topped with a Vortex Viper PST Gen II 5-25x50. I have a Magpul bipod, a Caldwell "Rock" shooting rest, and a modest selection of basic rear bag options. I'm not looking to jump in the deep end (yet) and buy a new custom rifle and a bunch of highly specialized gear. I understand I may need to buy some additional gear, and maybe I'll get bitten by the bug in the future and buy more/better gear, but that's not my project this year. For now, I just want to learn about the competition, go shoot, and get better.

The first decision appears to be between entering the "Match Rifle" or "F Class" categories. I don't have a shooting coat or any high-tech sling, and frankly expect I would do terribly at 500 or 600 yards if shooting prone unsupported. So, I'm leaning toward F class so I can use a bipod or rest. But within F Class, since I'm shooting a 6.5 Creedmoor, I understand I would need to shoot "F Open" rather than "F T/R," and I understand a lot of specialized equipment gets used in F Open.

With that long introduction, my first question is would you recommend I shoot "Match Rifle" or "F Class" with the gear that I have? I'm leaning toward F Class simply because I think I would do better/enjoy it more. I guess my question distilled is can I still have a decent time shooting F-Open with the gear that I have, or am I going to be miserable? I understand I'm likely to get smoked in either category, but am I wasting my time by not having all of the right gear?

If I decide to shoot Match Rifle, what else do I need? Are a coat, sling, and glove necessary? Where is the best place to find those things used or relatively inexpensively?

If I decide to shoot F Open, what else do I need? I know everyone being competitive will have a high-tech, purpose-built front rest, but I can't (or won't) afford something like that this year. Will my Caldwell Rock and pretty ordinary rear bag work, or is there a modest bipod or front rest upgrade you'd recommend?

Thank you for your input and assistance!

 

[Nature Boy]

I commend you for taking the plunge. You’ll have a great time and stand a good chance of getting hooked. The most important thing at this point is to get a match under your belt and make acquaintances with your fellow shooters.

The rifle I plan to use for this (mis)adventure is a Bergara B14 HMR chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor topped with a Vortex Viper PST Gen II 5-25x50. I have a Magpul bipod, a Caldwell "Rock" shooting rest, and a modest selection of basic rear bag options

That’s everything you need for F Open. You can use either the front rest or your bipod, whichever you’re more accurate with. I shot a match yesterday and a guy in my relay the next lane over was using a Caldwell front rest like yours. He did just fine.

If I decide to shoot F Open, what else do I need?

You have everything you need but I’ll add a few more items. A shooting mat or something to lay on. A spotting scope or pair of binos to see the shot marker when you’re scoring for other shooters. A folding chair.

Any of the other classes require equipment you don’t have. Get out there, have fun and figure out the next investment after you’ve gotten some experience.

 

[Okie_Poke]

The most important thing at this point is to get a match under your belt and make acquaintances with your fellow shooters.

You have everything you need but I’ll add a few more items. A shooting mat or something to lay on. A spotting scope or pair of binos to see the shot marker when you’re scoring for other shooters. A folding chair.

Get out there, have fun and figure out the next investment after you’ve gotten some experience.

Thank you for all of this. It’s encouraging. How much glass do I need for scoring? I have 10x binoculars but I’m not sure if that’s enough magnification. My club uses electronic shot markers most of the time, so I shouldn’t need the extra glass except when technology fails.

 

[Nature Boy]

If you’re club is using electronic targets you won’t need to score or pull targets.

 

[Okie_Poke]

Thank you!

 

[GooseGestapo]

Match Rifle means something different in CMP and NRA high power.

It means a iron sighted bolt action rifle.
Hunter class allows certain optics. Weight restrictions.

Your equipment set is closest to F-class as NatureBoy alluded.

My recommendation is to attend a match first. Then get a copy of rules. Then you’ll know which way to go.
I quit CMP when they started allowing optics to placate the military teams...
I’d have to install a 1,200 optic on my 1,100 rifle. Now, primers are $130/M if available!
I’m out! I’m 67 now. Too old to play the equipment chase...
NRA PPC too...

To answer your equipment question,
Champion Shooters supplies and Creedmoor Sports cater to the bullseye sports. Midway and Brownells secondarily.

Edited: Champions is now Freelands.

 

[Nature Boy]

If you were to use your rifle as is in a sling shooting application it would probably be AR/AS (any rifle/any sight)

Again, start with F Class. It’s designed to be friendly for beginners.

Also, if you haven’t already, check your clubs website. It’s likely to have some good info on rules and course of fire

 

[Okie_Poke]

. Your equipment set is closest to F-class as NatureBoy alluded.

Again, start with F Class. It’s designed to be friendly for beginners.

Thanks. I'll definitely start there.

My recommendation is to attend a match first. Then get a copy of rules. Then you’ll know which way to go.

Thanks. I did watch one of the 3x600 matches last year, and I have the CMP rules. I haven't read the NRA rules. I've also shot an informal "AR/Tactical" club match a few times that is similar to F-Class (bipod, rear bag) and shot prone at the 300 yard line using a "reduced" 600 yard target. That's what had mean leaning toward F-class to begin with, but I mostly wanted to make sure I wasn't overlooking something that made it better to try a different discipline first. Sounds like there's not, at least for my situation and preferences.

To answer your equipment question,
Champion Shooters supplies and Creedmoor Sports cater to the bullseye sports. Midway and Brownells secondarily.

Edited: Champions is now Freelands.

Thank you!

Also, if you haven’t already, check your clubs website. It’s likely to have some good info on rules and course of fire

Thanks! The website has match program bulletins for each match type, and they do describe the course of fire, link to the applicable rules, and provide when-where details. I've got the CMP rules downloaded but haven't read the NRA rules yet.

I appreciate your help!

 

[garandsrus]

If you shoot prone, a coat and glove/mitt are very important. They take a lot of the sling pressure off your hand/arm. They also isolate the gun from your pulse so the rifle isn’t bouncing up and down. You might be surprised how stable the rifle is prone with a sling.

 

[Nature Boy]

I’ve never shot with a coat and sling but I do shoot along side some folks that are really good at it. There’s a lot of learned techniques in controlling breathing and repeatability in their shooting position. When you see it done at a high level it’s very impressive. I’ve picked up a few things from them that help me shoot small.

Regardless of the game, it comes down to isolating and eliminating all the causes of variation (rifle, load, mechanics) to where it’s only about your ability to read the wind, where to hold and when to pull the trigger.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I would do terribly at 500 or 600 yards if shooting prone unsupported.

Don't sell yourself short. I shoot 600 yrds with iron sights and a sling. I'm not winning any matches, but I'm not dead last nor am I embarassed.

Am I wasting my time by not having all of the right gear?

Not at all. experience is good. No one starts out with everything all at once.

If I decide to shoot Match Rifle, what else do I need? Are a coat, sling, and glove necessary? Where is the best place to find those things used or relatively inexpensively?

All you need is a rifle, ammo, safety glasses, and ear plugs.

More seriously, you can spend as much money as you want on this game. If you're going to shoot high power, get a sling and a shooting mat from Creedmor, and go compete. Pick up the rest as you go-if you want to go further. If your club is still using paper targets, you'll need a spotting scope. I use a Vortex Diamondback (middle f their line) 2060x80 (about $500) and a stand from Creedmor (maybe it was Shooter's Choice.) You don't need awesome resolution; you're not counting points on antlers or the curl on a ram. You just need to see the marker discs in the target. If your club has moved to electronics (we use the Shot Marker system), you can skip that for a while. Lot of guys are still using their spotters to judge wind by watching the mirage through their spotters.

I won't say much about F-Class as I don't compete there. I feel like, with front and rear rests and optics, how much of your score is your ability and how much is your gear? Just be aware that the bulls eye in F-Class is smaller, and scoring rings are more compressed, so you must be more precise than in high power for the same score. In other words, less margin for error., or errors cost you more.

Last thing I would add is you're competing against yourself. Especially at first. Don't worry about rankings, and don't be concerned about comparing your performance to someone else's. Just work on improving your scores every time. Set measurable, attainable goals.

You might be surprised how stable the rifle is prone with a sling.

Absolutely. That sling is a must. I even use one for hunting now.

 

[MrBorland]

With that long introduction, my first question is would you recommend I shoot "Match Rifle" or "F Class" with the gear that I have? I'm leaning toward F Class simply because I think I would do better/enjoy it more. I guess my question distilled is can I still have a decent time shooting F-Open with the gear that I have, or am I going to be miserable? I understand I'm likely to get smoked in either category, but am I wasting my time by not having all of the right gear?

I never shot either, but I did shoot HP Service Rifle for a bit, so take this FWIW.

When new to a game, there's lots to learn, so since your gear sounds reasonable, I wouldn't invest in too much stuff now. Depending on how well you execute the fundamentals, how comfortable you are prone, how good your NPA is, how well you set your gear up around you and how confident you are in your zero, you might get smoked, or you might do very well for a first timer. If I were you, I'd shoot F-Open, but I'd also go prepared - that means reading the rule book, dry fire at home (ideally including a reduced official target and allotted times), having your rifle zero'd and 100% reliable, and coming to the match knowing where and how to place your gear (spotting scope and ammo/mags) so you're not rushed and so can shoot comfortably. Fortunately, most of this can be done at home (see below).

I referred to it, and @D.B. Cooper discussed it, but a piece of gear missing from your list I'd recommend is a decent spotting scope if you're shooting paper. At one end, they're very pricey, but at the other end is cheap Chinese junk that's not going to help you. You might get away without a spotting scope for now, but if you plan to stick with it, I'd definitely look into one.

I’ve never shot with a coat and sling but I do shoot along side some folks that are really good at it.

Getting prone can feel very awkward and uncomfortable (especially with a properly-set sling) initially, and results often reflect this. The better your Natural Point of Aim (NPA) and more relaxed you are, the better. Fortunately, this is something that gets better with practice, and even more fortunately, is something which can be practiced at home. Spending a lot of time at home prone (and slung up, if applicable) pays lots of dividends (as does dry fire in general) - it gets your body used to the position so you're not fighting it as much, and you start noticing little things in your position and sight picture which can be tweaked.

When practicing prone at home, I also found it important to include your spotting scope and (empty) mags in your routine - your actual position might be good and relaxed, but it has to stay that way (and changed as little as possible) while you're looking through your scope or grabbing a new mag (which you can also practice at home). When I shot my very first HP match, I never thought to consider scope placement in my preparation, so while I had been winning the match, the wheels fell off during the slow prone stage

The only other piece of advice I can offer is to be sure you absolutely know your zero for a particular distance, condition, and position and have confidence in it. Ideally, your sighters would confirm the zero you already know. When I shot (pre-optic) HP Service Rifle, in addition to a lot of dry fire, I was meticulous about recording sight adjustments. A good shot is a confident and deliberate shot. If you're not 100% confident about your zero, your subconscious will let you take what amounts to pot shots. BTDT

Good luck!

 

[Laphroaig]

Just a couple of thoughts that I had while reading the thread. I'm no expert, but a local-ish club hosts a monthly 2 x 600 prone match which I have shot in a few times (mainly for S&G's and to hang out on a rifle range and test equipment), competing in both F-class and sling events.

One thing that I found was that I need a higher bipod for prone than off of the bench. I use a 6-9 " Harris from the bench but require a 9-13 prone. I found the Harris was a pain to use in the grass as it would bounce from recoil and need reset every shot. One time I brought a piece of plywood to set it on which made it easier to slide back to POA. A nice stable rest would make life easier but I never took it serious enough to drop the bucks on a nice one.

I have a Caldwell type rest that isn't tall enough to work without setting it on a board. Check yours out to be sure that it works if you go that way.

Prone sling shooting is a lot more physically demanding and requires more stuff. I'm not trying to be funny, but how old are you? I recently turned six-dozen and lying out in the sun wearing a sweatshirt and heavy leather coat on a humid 85* day about kills me. I try and avoid those situations now-a-days. I started in my early 40's and got some good years in though.

Good luck!

+1

 

[Okie_Poke]

Regardless of the game, it comes down to isolating and eliminating all the causes of variation (rifle, load, mechanics) to where it’s only about your ability to read the wind, where to hold and when to pull the trigger.

"Only," he says. All of these things are what make actually showing up to shoot a match so daunting to me. I've shot a 300-yard match a few times, but I've never shot at anything beyond 350 yards. I can calculate ballistic tables on apps and websites all I want, but until I get to shoot at that range I have no idea how my rifle and load (and me) will perform. "Reading the wind" remains largely a mystery to me. A major reason I want to shoot F-Class is it's about the only way for me to reliably access a range beyond 350 yards. Our club has some type of match on the high power range basically every weekend and so shooting in one of those matches is the best way I know of to use it.

More seriously, you can spend as much money as you want on this game. If your club is still using paper targets, you'll need a spotting scope. I use a Vortex Diamondback (middle f their line) 2060x80 (about $500) and a stand from Creedmor (maybe it was Shooter's Choice.) You don't need awesome resolution; you're not counting points on antlers or the curl on a ram. You just need to see the marker discs in the target. If your club has moved to electronics (we use the Shot Marker system), you can skip that for a while. Lot of guys are still using their spotters to judge wind by watching the mirage through their spotters.

I referred to it, and @D.B. Cooper discussed it, but a piece of gear missing from your list I'd recommend is a decent spotting scope if you're shooting paper. At one end, they're very pricey, but at the other end is cheap Chinese junk that's not going to help you. You might get away without a spotting scope for now, but if you plan to stick with it, I'd definitely look into one.

Thanks. My club does use Shot Marker, so I'm going to hold off on the spotter for now. I have one on my list anyway because I want one for hunting purposes, but other things have taken priority.

Last thing I would add is you're competing against yourself. Especially at first. Don't worry about rankings, and don't be concerned about comparing your performance to someone else's. Just work on improving your scores every time. Set measurable, attainable goals.

I will do my best on this front. I'm trying to set realistic expectations.

Getting prone can feel very awkward and uncomfortable (especially with a properly-set sling) initially, and results often reflect this. The better your Natural Point of Aim (NPA) and more relaxed you are, the better. Fortunately, this is something that gets better with practice, and even more fortunately, is something which can be practiced at home. Spending a lot of time at home prone (and slung up, if applicable) pays lots of dividends (as does dry fire in general) - it gets your body used to the position so you're not fighting it as much, and you start noticing little things in your position and sight picture which can be tweaked.

When practicing prone at home, I also found it important to include your spotting scope and (empty) mags in your routine - your actual position might be good and relaxed, but it has to stay that way (and changed as little as possible) while you're looking through your scope or grabbing a new mag (which you can also practice at home). When I shot my very first HP match, I never thought to consider scope placement in my preparation, so while I had been winning the match, the wheels fell off during the slow prone stage

I have a Caldwell type rest that isn't tall enough to work without setting it on a board. Check yours out to be sure that it works if you go that way.

I've done a bit of dry fire practice before but I hadn't considered getting everything out, setting up, fiddling with it, etc. to practice with the equipment as much as the rifle. That's a good idea. As is making sure my Caldwell rest will actually work from prone. I've done some shooting off a bipod prone, but I've only ever shot on my Caldwell rest from a bench. Definitely need to make sure it will get high enough for me prone. It has quite a bit of adjustment, so I bet it will, but that's definitely not something I want to be figuring out for the first time on the firing line.

The only other piece of advice I can offer is to be sure you absolutely know your zero for a particular distance, condition, and position and have confidence in it. Ideally, your sighters would confirm the zero you already know. When I shot (pre-optic) HP Service Rifle, in addition to a lot of dry fire, I was meticulous about recording sight adjustments. A good shot is a confident and deliberate shot. If you're not 100% confident about your zero, your subconscious will let you take what amounts to pot shots. BTDT

I'll do my best here. I pretty confident in my 100 yard zero and my scope adjustments out to 300 yards, because I have practiced those quite a bit. But my first shots at 600 will be based on theoretical drop charts. I'm expecting to be on paper (it's a fairly large piece of paper, overall), but I won't know until I do it. I do have a notebook for each rifle that I use any time I reload for it or shoot it and will definitely take notes in there so I have concrete information for the next time out.

Good luck!

Thank you! I appreciate everyone's feedback and advice.

 

[Nature Boy]

"Only," he says.

Well, “only” means that’s the next level, not that it’s easy. Reading the wind is a skill that comes with experience and you don’t have to eat the elephant in one bite.

Like any hobby, it’s supposed to be fun and rewarding. You choose how much time and money you want to invest in it. Take it in increments and enjoy the process

 

[Ifishsum]

Bring a tablet or Ipad to connect to the ShotMarker target...it can be done with a smartphone but a larger display is much easier to see and navigate in position. My first match with E-targets I was not aware I had to bring my own.

 

[Random 8]

I'm mostly a service rifle shooter, but I do shoot an occasional MRP match for 5-600 yard slow fire practice. SR shooting is popular locally, so there are most often enough entries for a SR class to be offered. If it is affordable for you, and you have any interest in match rifle/sling shooting, a box stock RRA NM A4 rifle (with the iron sights) would allow you to compete in match rifle class, as well as Service rifle events, and upgrade to an optic at a later time if you are liking service rifle. All you'd really need would be the rifle, ammo with a 75-80 HPBT, and an M1907 style sling. If you don't develop an interest in SR shooting, it will still carry pretty good resale and you can put proceeds towards a proper match rifle. You should add a spotting scope absolutely. It doesn't have to be high-end. You just need to see your markers and mirage. A shooting mat is also a plus. You can improvise with a yoga mat or similar, but a purpose built shooting mat will be better. I found the SR scores to be almost as good, sometimes better than the MR scores on the MRP courses I've shot. This is possibly in deference to the caliber of SR shooters locally. A gold cut score will not guarantee EIC points at local EIC service rifle matches!

You sound like you are well set up to experiment with F-class style shooting other than needing a shooting mat and spotting scope. F class is a game of gear and perfection. I dabbled in it in the Wild West days when it was new and you could do well with a good, lightly modified .308 rifle (glass and trigger) and a decent scope, and quickly tired of the arms race as it developed into that kind of game. I prefer to play the wind and wobble of sling shooting.

 

[Okie_Poke]

Well, today I finally made it to shoot a mid-range high power match. My local club had a 600 yard prone match today. Because I'm shooting a 6.5 Creedmoor and don't know how to use a sling, I shot in F Open. I used the setup described earlier in this thread: Bergara B14 HMR, topped with a Vortex PST Gen II 5-25, Caldwell front rest, a basic Protektor rear bag, and a shooting match. I ran 140 ELD-Ms.

It was 45 degrees, overcast, with a 15-25 mph wind coming straight in our faces (and fishtailing from right to left and back). Wind got worse as the morning went on. There wasn't any visible mirage until the last string, around noon.

The club paired me with a more experienced shooter who was quite a bit of help and very friendly. I definitely struggled to read the condition (or to even remember to look at the condition between shots . . .) I think there was only 1 shot where I was pulled the shot really badly---all the rest of my misadventures were bad reads on (or forgetting to read) the wind. Most of my 8s came when I missed a condition change (e.g., was holding left side of the target and the wind switched from left to right, pushing me way left). A lot of my 9s were the same way, though I'm pretty sure that a good portion of my 9s are just me not being that great of a shot---I had a little trouble staying stable on that rest. The gun moved quite a bit on every shot and I had to wrestle it back on target. Between me and the rifle, I doubt I could have kept all shots in the 10 if the wind was perfectly calm. The guys shooting Service Rifle with a sling are impressive.

My total score was 560-9X with the following strings: 190-5X, 185-2X, and 185-2X. No one is going to accuse me of being a prodigy. This was a humbling experience. But, it was fun and I hope to shoot another one next month.

 

[Random 8]

Glad you took the plunge and made it out to a match today. I shot a Garand Match with a high temp of 30 and a swirling wind and a little snow/sleet today. Fun.

If you have interest in trying sling shooting, pick up an M1 style WEB sling. It's easy to install and operate, inexpensive, and fairly effective at stabilizing in prone. There are many videos available on attaching and employing said sling. They are much less intimidating to set up than an M1907 style sling. Even if just for some casual practice, it's a skill every rifleman should have.

 

[Laphroaig]

My total score was 560-9X with the following strings: 190-5X, 185-2X, and 185-2X. No one is going to accuse me of being a prodigy. This was a humbling experience. But, it was fun and I hope to shoot another one next month.

That's some pretty good shooting is what sounds like tough conditions. The F-class center is very challenging IMO in any condition.