THIS is the cause of MA's gun crime problem.

[Manedwolf]

Naughty naughty! *slap on wrist*
Check out this "verdict" from the Boston Herald:

A South End thug escaped conviction yesterday on charges he shot a Boston police officer who was the lead man during a high-risk raid on the suspect’s apartment two years ago.
Suffolk Superior Court jury members deliberated for four days before deciding they could not unanimously declare that James Nolan, 27, fired the .45-caliber slug that hit officer Kevin Ford in the side, rupturing his stomach.

Nolan was convicted of unlawful possession of a firearm, unlawful possession of ammunition and possession of marijuana. He will be sentenced April 7.

The attorney general’s office vowed to retry Nolan on charges of armed assault with intent to murder that stemmed from Ford’s shooting, spokeswoman Beth Stone said.
Ford said he is disappointed with the verdict, but said the prosecutors and state police assigned to investigate did an “outstanding job.”

“My whole outlook is that it doesn’t matter if I was a police officer or a mailman, he still shot a human being,” said Ford, who endured four surgeries to repair damage inflicted by the impact of the roughly half-inch slug. “You know the old .45’s. They travel slow, but they hit like a sledgehammer.”

Ford was a member of the Boston Police Department entry team in February 2004 when it raided Nolan’s Massachusetts Avenue apartment, executing a warrant for the attorney general’s office.

During the raid, Nolan allegedly fired from behind a closed bedroom door, striking Ford in the side. Ford’s vest stopped the slug, but the force of the round split his stomach. Ford returned to duty four months later as a canine officer.

http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=132089

They coddle criminals and LET THEM OUT, and wonder why they have more gun crime. Meanwhile, they blame NH, VT and ME, which have almost NONE.

 

[beerslurpy]

Cops shot during no-knock search warrants get zero sympathy for me.

Cops shouldnt be executing no-knocks because
-it's dangerous for everyone involved
-police get addresses wrong on warrants or misread warrants
-it often escalates a search for evidence into a gunfight because it is difficult to distinguish from a coordinated criminal attack
-it often results in the deaths of people who are supposed to be assumed innocent

Another thing, dont call them "raids." A raid is a militiary incursion into enemy territory to kill people and break their stuff. A search warrant can be conducted like a raid, but it shouldnt be.

 

[Manedwolf]

I agree, but I don't see where it says it was a no-knock?

The one time I'd seen a warrant served was in college, in the dorms, the FBI busting into a room to arrest people for making false IDs. And they definitely shouted and all before entering.

 

[beerslurpy]

How do you think drug raids are conducted?

*knock knock*
"Who's there."
"DEA, we have a warrant to search the premises for narcotics."
"FEDS!"
*flush flush flush*
"Ok, come in."
"Zounds, foiled again!"

-OR perhaps-

*CRASH* *FLASHBANG* *KICKS DOG*
"Everyone freeze! DEA! You, dont move! Hands in the air!"
*tackle tackle cuff*

Which is fine as long as:
-they kick in the door of my pot-dealing neighbor and not me
-they dont have itchy trigger fingers and end up accidentally giving someone the death penalty for having a dime bag of weed or being an alleged bookie
-they dont get mistaken for home invaders

The question is how many preventable deaths and other harms we are willing to accept in the name of banning intoxicating substances?

 

[Maxwell]

They blame legal gun owners because they can track legal gun owners.
Criminals apply to no registration and dont declare details about their firearm collections. The etherial nature of the underworld is something the peacenicks just cant grasp... so they reach for whats visible.

A Criminal carries his gun for protection against other criminals too.
A cop isint a cop unless I can see his badge and uniform, or he somehow announces that he is a cop. If he crashes through my door unannounced, reguardless of what other crime I may be commiting at the time, shooting him can be explained off as a response he provoked.

I think flushing is better than provoking a shootout, but thats me. (and logicly if they only have enough to dispose of it ALL with one swift action, should we be wasting the SWAT teams time?)

 

[ZenMasterJG]

The question is how many preventable deaths and other harms we are willing to accept in the name of banning intoxicating substances?

Obvious.

Zero.

 

[taliv]

if i was on his jury, i'd have found him innocent too. looks like a good shoot to me.

“My whole outlook is that it doesn’t matter if I was a police officer or a mailman, he still shot a human being,” said Ford,

typical MA logic...

Nolan was convicted of unlawful possession of a firearm, unlawful possession of ammunition and possession of marijuana.

possessino of a firearm: constitutional
possession of ammunition: constitutional
possession of marijuana: could be banned by state law

I don't see anything there that would justify a warrant, much less a high-risk raid

 

[Standing Wolf]

Well, yeah, but it was still New Hampshire's fault, right? Or Virginia's? Or somebody else's?

 

[johnnytang24]

possessino of a firearm: constitutional
possession of ammunition: constitutional
possession of marijuana: could be banned by state law

I don't see anything there that would justify a warrant, much less a high-risk raid

The article doesn't say for what the warrant was issued. Those are the things for which he was convicted. Are you saying it's goot to shoot police?

Thanks.

 

[beerslurpy]

I've always said that its good to shoot armed people who kick in your door without warning, especially in the early hours of the morning. If this sort of general rule discourages police from resorting to home invasion as a means of gathering evidence, then so be it.

I dont beleive it is fair or reasonable to impose upon ordinary citizens the task of discerning whether the gunman charging towards their bedroom door is a police officer or merely a criminal yelling "police" so he gets to take the first shot. I think Justice Holmes said that it was unfair to expect people to carefully weigh the outcome of their actions when faced with the point of a blade.

Yes, it was Holmes, in BROWN v. UNITED STATES, 256 U.S. 335 (1921) where he restored the bright-line "no duty to retreat" rule in self defense. The quote he gave specifically was:

"Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife. Therefore in this Court, at least, it is not a condition of immunity that one in that situation should pause to consider whether a reasonable man might not think it possible to fly with safety or to disable his assailant rather than to kill him. The law of Texas very strongly adopts these views as is shown by many cases, of which it is enough to cite two."

 

[brerrabbit]

If the cops did not identify properly themselve and provide the warrant, as far as I am concerned it was a justified shoot.

Also, yelling POLICE while breaking down a mans door is not a proper identification.

 

[johnnytang24]

They were serving a warrant. What are they supposed to do? Knock? What if no one answers? Just go away or expect to be shot?

I was under the assumption that they always did announce themselves.

 

[Erebus]

During the raid, Nolan allegedly fired from behind a closed bedroom door

Firing though a bedroom door at an at best unconfirmed target.

Looks like a good shoot to me.

Taliv you think it's a good idea to fire through a door at an unconfirmed target?!?! Hope you don't have kids that might wander out in the confusion.

I dont beleive it is fair or reasonable to impose upon ordinary citizens the task of discerning whether the gunman charging towards their bedroom door is a police officer or merely a criminal yelling "police" so he gets to take the first shot.

Beerslurpy, as true as this may be, it's not a chance I would like to take in court. Five voices shouting "Police" will sound garbled at best. And a shirt saying "POLICE" and badge behind a flashlight in the dark is never going to be seen. But when they tell a judge or jury I don't like yours or my chances.

As far as the war on drugs goes I see it like booze. Until you get tanked and get in a car or engage in some other activity that could put other's lives at risk, I don't care.

I don't see it as worth kicking in doors and putting all those lives at risk for the sake of keeping someone from getting high. Yea drugs kill people, but none of them are too stupid to not know it's killing them. IF they are sitting at home let them huff or smoke or shoot up or swallow anything they want. When they put other's lives at risk bust them.

 

[silverlance]

lol

beerslurpy, that description of yours had me laughing for a good five minutes.

i especially love the part: *KICKS DOG*

 

[cbsbyte]

Actually if one cares to look at real data they will find Mass has some of the lowest violent crime rates in the nation and the safest towns in America. If you took Boston out of the mix Mass would be the safest place to live in the US.

 

[beerslurpy]

It's well known that 99 percent of the crime in the entire country is confined to a few bad neighborhoods.

It's also a truism that 99 percent of the nanny-statism and gun phobia in the entire country is confined to the cities that contain those bad neighborhoods. States in which those cities make up a majority of the population are called blue states. States without such problem neighborhoods are generally known as red states.

Yeah, I know its a generalization, but it is pretty amazing the effect that a very small minority of violent criminals can have on such a large surrounding population. Also pretty amazing the effect that an essentially apolotical class like criminals can have on politics.

 

[cbsbyte]

One forgets that criminals and Boston city politicans are one in the same. The Irish mob has owned and ruled Boston since the turn of the last century. The city is bought and payed for by the mob. Many city mayors where tied to the mob and even a few police commissiers where major members of the mob. Heck many major politicans in the state including the Kennedy clan are tied in with the mob. The Irish mob even had ties to the FBI in the state. If you don't believe me read Howie Carrs book on the mob in Boston. Of course not the whole state is like that just Boston and some other cities. Where I live, in Centeral Mass the Italian mob ruled. And now its the Russians.

Many states have problems with crime. Many Red states have very high crime rates such as Florida, and Texas. Due to illegal drug trafficing, and growing poverty in the cities. So your point is?.. Only Blue states have criminal problems. I am affraid its not that simple. Most states have problems even places like New Hampshire, Alaska, Montana etc.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I agree, but I don't see where it says it was a no-knock?

The one time I'd seen a warrant served was in college, in the dorms, the FBI busting into a room to arrest people for making false IDs. And they definitely shouted and all before entering.

There is scant difference between a no-knock raid and a *knock-wait 5 seconds-kick in the door* raid. Especially when they very often plan such incursions to take place when they think occupants may be asleep. They intentionally do NOT allow sufficient time for a sleeping person to awake, identify that someone is knocking (!) on the door, get out of bed, find bedroom slippers, and find their way to the door to ask who might be disturbing the neighborhood at oh-dark-thirty.

They were serving a warrant. What are they supposed to do? Knock? What if no one answers? Just go away or expect to be shot?

I was under the assumption that they always did announce themselves.

Yes, they are supposed to knock, and if nobody answers they should go away and come back at another time. The Constitution includes a prohibition against unreasonable searches. I may be a bit old-fashioned, but it strikes me that being rousted out of bed in the middle of the night by a mob of armed assailants yelling "Police!" is a bit unreasonable. They have a warrant to search my house? Fine -- slide the warrant through the mail slot, sit down, and have a smoke while I READ the damned warrant and call my attorney to ask his advice. Or while I, at the very least, calmly point out to Officer Friendly that he is indeed at number 371, but he's on the wrong street.

No, they do not always announce themselves. What did you think "no knock" meant?

 

[gunsmith]

fake cops rape and kill

http://www.ktsm.com/story_news.sstg?c=1722
Fake Police Officers
In the last two weeks, three woman have been pulled over and assaulted by men posing as police officers. Now the city's taking a new approach to tell drivers what to watch out for.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/original/0306/1701_killer_fake_cop.html
Fake Police Officer May Have Killed Sarah Whitlock
http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060325/NEWS01/603250326/1004/NEWS
A 39-year-old private counselor has pleaded guilty to impersonating a police officer in connection with handcuffing two teen girls
http://www.eyewitnessnewstv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4634185&nav=F2DO
an accused of impersonating police officer surprised by real cops
STONEHAM, Mass. A Woburn man who allegedly broke into a home while impersonating a police officer -- and later tried to extort money from the alleged victim -- goes to court today on a variety of charges.

So yes Johnny, I am a law abiding type of guy (now a days)
I break no laws and am not wanted for anything so if some skell comes in my apt after breaking down my door is getting shot, if it turns out to be a cop raiding the wrong house I will be sad.

 

[beerslurpy]

The closer you get to a police state, the more incentive people have to impersonate the authorities.

 

[jdkelly]

...with out any other facts...

I don't see where we have any information that would allow us to determine whether the "shoot" was good or not.

But based on what he was convicted on, with out any other facts, I would guess that it was not a "good shoot".

Respectfully,

jdkelly

 

[beerslurpy]

Sorry Kelly, thats not how it works. Because someone is eventually convicted of a crime, it doent automatically follow that the means used to apprehend him were justified. That is why there is justice based on the overall picture and justice based upon the procedure- both are important hurdles for the government to jump over.

If the government puts itself in the position of home invader to merely gather evidence of a petty moral crime (possession simpliciter crimes are defined by lack of a victim or threatened party), then it should bear the cost of any negative outcome (like being shot at).

 

[gc70]

The attorney general’s office vowed to retry Nolan on charges of armed assault with intent to murder that stemmed from Ford’s shooting, spokeswoman Beth Stone said.

I know that it is technically legal, but it burns me up every time I see this sort of "try him again with another charge" maneuver. The state gets to decide what crimes a person is charged with, but they should not be allowed to keep going back with slightly different charges for the same act.

 

[Autolycus]

Here is an incident that happened at my school. This was in the dorm that I just moved out of.

http://newshound.de.siu.edu/fall05/stories/storyReader$228

 

[MechAg94]

If you take away the worst crime areas of most any state, you would get the "safest state in the nation". Does any state have crime rates average high across the entire state?