Thoughts on 7mm-08 Ackley Improved... is it worth the effort and added cost?

[Crosshair]

I wouldn't. Having to fire form cases is a step I don't want to deal with. Anything you save on cases will be spent on the fire forming.

My 22 Hornets I neck size and keep the ammo separate for each gun.

That's my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Varminterror]

@Crosshair - fireforming brass for AI cartridges involves firing standard load or factory ammo... not complicated...

 

[MCMXI]

@Crosshair - fireforming brass for AI cartridges involves firing standard load or factory ammo... not complicated...

And from what I've read, standard loads often shoot really well in an AI chamber.

I have a nice set of competition Redding dies for 7mm-08 Rem with the micrometer neck sizer and seater dies. I'm assuming that I could still use both of those for AI and all I'd need to do is order a 40 degree body die from Redding for the AI.

 

[troy fairweather]

And from what I've read, standard loads often shoot really well in an AI chamber.

I have a nice set of competition Redding dies for 7mm-08 Rem with the micrometer neck sizer and seater dies. I'm assuming that I could still use both of those for AI and all I'd need to do is order a 40 degree body die from Redding for the AI.

Yea ackleys do shoot there original case good, so think the chamber keeps the factory round centered. Some dies work and some don't but most are the seating die. Some neck sizing dies may not be cut so the Ackley will work.

 

[WisBorn]

@MCMXI & @troy fairweather I was wondering how well does the standard ammo shoot in the AI chamber. Thanks for answering that question. And @Varminterror for your response.

 

[Keyfer 55]

Can you reame it yourself or need a gunsmith?

 

[MCMXI]

Can you reame it yourself or need a gunsmith?

I do it myself. I've only ruined one barrel so far, a .300 WM, but fortunately it was free and I had a number of spares.

 

[LoonWulf]

Yea ackleys do shoot there original case good, so think the chamber keeps the factory round centered. Some dies work and some don't but most are the seating die. Some neck sizing dies may not be cut so the Ackley will work.

Hornadys neck sizers are sharp shouldered and have worked fine for both .30cals and .257s ive had. They are a cheap way to "build" an AI set if you cant find a full length die, especially if its a cal your already shooting.
What I actually did for my .250AI was buy a .257 neck sizer die, and then buy .257 seating parts and use them in my spare 6.5cm die body.
You will eventually need to bump shoulders but it takes a while.

If chambering is done correctly theres really no advantage to a standard chamber. All three of my Ackley'd rifles shot factory ammo as well as AI handloads.

 

[Crosshair]

@Crosshair - fireforming brass for AI cartridges involves firing standard load or factory ammo... not complicated...

That's the problem and yes it is. Which is why AI cartridges remain uncommon.

I'm not gonna go out and shoot 200 rounds of a cartridge/load I don't want just to get brass for a load that will get me another 100 fps and a slightly different zero.

The days of making 300 Win mag brass from 300 H&H brass are long gone.

My 401 GNR? Run 44 Mag brass through the sizing die and I'm good to go. I can do that at home no matter what the weather outside is doing.

 

[LoonWulf]

That's the problem and yes it is. Which is why AI cartridges remain uncommon.

I'm not gonna go out and shoot 200 rounds of a cartridge/load I don't want just to get brass for a load that will get me another 100 fps and a slightly different zero.

The days of making 300 Win mag brass from 300 H&H brass are long gone.

My 401 GNR? Run 44 Mag brass through the sizing die and I'm good to go. I can do that at home no matter what the weather outside is doing.

I just shoot factory ammo or standard brass handloads as normal till I have a pile of AI brass then switch. Havent had to rezero unless switching from factory to handloads or switching bullets in my handloads....even then ill keep notes and just adjust as needed for what ever im shooting.

I dont particularly care for handloading, but enjoy shooting so being able to shoot cheap factory ammo and if necessary adjust my zero back at the end if the day is a major perk.

 

[Picher]

My question for all re-chamberings is: Is the increased performance really worth affecting the resale value of the rifle and extra case prep necessary to shoot the standard brass in it?

Second Question: Am I trying to get too much out of that rifle when I could just sell it and buy another rifle with a different standard chambering to accomplish the same thing?

Third Question: Will a larger case capacity, will the rifle have less flexibility to shoot moderate velocity loads for target shooting or medium game.

 

[gotboostvr]

What I would do regarding fireforming brass (not that anyone asked)

My question for all re-chamberings is: Is the increased performance really worth affecting the resale value of the rifle and extra case prep necessary to shoot the standard brass in it?

Second Question: Am I trying to get too much out of that rifle when I could just sell it and buy another rifle with a different standard chambering to accomplish the same thing?

Third Question: Will a larger case capacity, will the rifle have less flexibility to shoot moderate velocity loads for target shooting or medium game.

Re: Third Question,
That sounds like a great opportunity for fireforming loads.

Hypothetically, if I were to build up the 280AI I'd like, I'd build a ~120gr load up for coyote hunting using standard brass to fireform for my heavier AI load. Plenty of speed for yotes as far as I'd want to shoot one.

 

[MCMXI]

My question for all re-chamberings is: Is the increased performance really worth affecting the resale value of the rifle and extra case prep necessary to shoot the standard brass in it?

Second Question: Am I trying to get too much out of that rifle when I could just sell it and buy another rifle with a different standard chambering to accomplish the same thing?

Third Question: Will a larger case capacity, will the rifle have less flexibility to shoot moderate velocity loads for target shooting or medium game.

Good questions.

Resale value and case prep
I've never done anything firearm related with resale value in mind. I'm far more interested in the pleasure or satisfaction that a firearm brings over any potential resale value. I find the idea of resizing brass to a cool form factor appealing.

Alternative rifles
You simply can't buy the rifles I'm intending to build, even as 7mm-08 Rem. The stocks aren't available (100% CF shell), the barrel would be a special order, and you'd need to buy a donor rifle for the action. That said, if I were looking to buy a 7mm-08 Rem I'd just order a Tikka T3x or similar. Supposedly the 7mm-08 AI offers .280 Rem performance in a short action. Inside typical hunting distances, will these rifles do anything that many of my others won't do? Probably not, but that's ok with me.

Case capacity
I don't have any interest or need for moderate velocity loads. These would be hunting rifles for deer and elk shooting Barnes 139gr or 145gr LRX bullets, hence the 1:8 twist.

My original question was if the AI is worth it over the Rem. I have zero cost into the barrels, stocks or triggers and employee pricing on the two donor actions. I have 7mm-08 Rem competition dies from Redding, lots of really nice brass, bullets, powder, and primers. The only cost I'm looking at is the cost of a finish reamer and GO/NO GO gauges which isn't much at all. If I want to get the barrels engraved and bead blasted to look somewhat factory that would cost less than $100. I think there's someone out there that appreciates a custom rifle with a high cool factor, and if not, "one is none, two is one".

Yep, the feedback here along with my desire to see success with a 7mm projectile has me convinced that this is where I'm heading. I've only ever owned one 7mm-08 Rem, a Savage Weather Warrior, and it was a total disaster. I've shot a bunch of .280 AI Kimbers which make for excellent deer/elk mountain rifles. Maybe I'm looking for redemption and a .284 that actually works.

 

[MCMXI]

Which is why AI cartridges remain uncommon.

As far as I'm aware .280 AI is the only SAAMI approved Ackley and the only Ackley cartridge offered in production rifles. .280 AI is uncommon and yet rifles, commercial brass and factory ammunition are available which makes me think that the popularity of AIs isn't dependent on the need to fire form brass or the availability of commercial brass, but rather on a perceived benefit or interest in the cartridge itself.

Would I choose an AI for a PRS rifle, probably not, but for a hunting rifle where 100 to 200 pieces of quality brass is more than enough ... yeah, not a problem. Heck, I should use one of the rifles to fire form and sell 7mm-08 AI brass. I saw one place charging almost $5 per piece of brass .... yikes!

 

[30Cal]

I’ve got a 257rob AI. It’s cool but sometimes frustrating.

 

[MCMXI]

I’ve got a 257rob AI. It’s cool but sometimes frustrating.

Don't leave it there! Surely you can elaborate a little.

 

[Varminterror]

I'm not gonna go out and shoot 200 rounds of a cartridge/load I don't want just to get brass for a load that will get me another 100 fps and a slightly different zero.

You’re not listening, because a handful of us have described to you that you don’t have to do this...

Just fire factory or standard brass ammo in your rifle until you’ve accumulated enough. Hunt, plink, compete, whatever... forming your GNR actually takes more work than forming AI cartridges... the devil you know, I suppose...

 

[horsey300]

That's the problem and yes it is. Which is why AI cartridges remain uncommon.

I'm not gonna go out and shoot 200 rounds of a cartridge/load I don't want just to get brass for a load that will get me another 100 fps and a slightly different zero.

The days of making 300 Win mag brass from 300 H&H brass are long gone.

My 401 GNR? Run 44 Mag brass through the sizing die and I'm good to go. I can do that at home no matter what the weather outside is doing.

You'd have made a better argument arguing against 7-08 at all, as sizing from .308 or .243 will require more work of the 7-08 supply ever dries up. Just saying.
Ps still in the pro ai camp.

 

[LoonWulf]

You'd have made a better argument arguing against 7-08 at all, as sizing from .308 or .243 will require more work of the 7-08 supply ever dries up. Just saying.
Ps still in the pro ai camp.

Sizing from .308 allows you to adjust your shoulder location to your chambers head space tho

 

[horsey300]

Sizing from .308 allows you to adjust your shoulder location to your chambers head space tho

Didn't say it was a good argument, just a better founded one

 

[LoonWulf]

Didn't say it was a good argument, just a better founded one

Im in a hole poking mood.......

 

[stillquietvoice]

You'd have made a better argument arguing against 7-08 at all, as sizing from .308 or .243 will require more work of the 7-08 supply ever dries up. Just saying.
Ps still in the pro ai camp.

I agree with forming 7mm08 from 308, but not with 243 win. 308 brass would need neck turning, not required for 243 win. Run 243 through 7mm08 die and done. The neck might be a couple thousandths too small to seal the chamber well. Would work better for 260 rem.

 

[30Cal]

Don't leave it there! Surely you can elaborate a little.

Most recently I buckled about 6 in a row at the shoulder. I don’t have my notes handy, but I want to say I’d expanded some 6mm Rem, annealed, then crunched them trying to FL resize at 257AI.

I’ve also buckled cases seating cannelure bullets.

Not fun with 257 Rob because getting cases ready is a bit of a production.

But it’s also fun. I’ve been using cast bullets to fireform them and the accuracy with those has been shockingly good.

 

[horsey300]

I agree with forming 7mm08 from 308, but not with 243 win. 308 brass would need neck turning, not required for 243 win. Run 243 through 7mm08 die and done. The neck might be a couple thousandths too small to seal the chamber well. Would work better for 260 rem.

My point was rather the prep involved would be worse for 7-08 from any other mainstream supply than simply 7-08 to 7-08ai lol. .260 can be even worse supply than 7-08 but yes would be better!

 

[MCMXI]

I'm trying to order a finishing reamer and gages from PT&G but they don't list 7mm-08 AI go/no go gages. What the heck? I'll have to call them in the morning.