Thoughts on a Tip-up Barrel Pistol

[230RN]

"my wife has troubles operating any slides and finally settled on a Beretta Tomcat."

With my arthritis, I also have this problem.

However, I will point out that blow-back operated autos have to have pretty strong recoil springs to help absorb the energy of the cartridge. You might look for a locked-breech auto because they do not need such strong springs and are a lot easier to rack.

I have a Llama in .380 which is a locked breech and is in fact an accurate 5/8 scale model of the 1911. This .380 used to be one of my favorite carry guns. I later bough an almost identicial Llama, also in .380, which was pure blowback. I had a lot of difficulty operating the slide on this one because of the blowback's strong spring. I gave that gun away. and kept the locked-breech version.

Terry, 230RN

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Many have given sound advice already, but I'm going to throw out there the comment that "why no revolver?" is a good point.

If you have trouble operating the slide, a small revolver is a very good option as an alternative. I'd suggest a Ruger LCR or a S&W j frame. You have to get what you like, but revolvers are good carry guns.

Back to semi's, have you looked at a Walther PPK?

 

[230RN]

^

"Back to semi's, have you looked at a Walther PPK?"

Still a bit heavy on the racking (blowback action). Having the safety up there on the slide helps in gripping it, but it's still heavy.

And the gun itself is pretty weighty for a .380.

Stick with either a locked-breech or a tip-up for her if an auto is her primary choice. If she's like most CCW-ers, she'll end up with quite an assortment of guns after a while anyhow.

(And if she's like most women, she'll look through all her guns before going out, complaining "I don't have a single gun to wear!")

There are times when I wish the NRA's reports and testing of guns would include graphs of "rack weight" and DA trigger pull throughout the actuationg strokes. E.g,. I have no trouble with the Beretta 92's first-shot trigger pull through the first half, but it really gets too stiff for me right before the letoff. (Arthritis, again.) With my left hand, I have no problem, but with the right hand, ugh.

That, even though I excercise regularly with the attached device, which allows one to work individual fingers and has a sort of halfassed backstrap-feel to it. (I got this one from my LGS, but I think you can get them at music stores. Stringed instrument players use them to excercise their fretting fingers. They come in heavy and light weights.)

(Pic by me, no copyright restrictions. Pardon the dust. I forgot to blow it off.)

Terry, 230RN

 

[IdahoSkies]

2BlessU In tip up barrels you really have two lines of pistols, Berretta (the bobcat, jetfire and tomcat, and then the .380 Alleycat which is a very big gun), the other is the Taurus line of pistols. All of them are in 22lr, .25 ACP, and .32 ACP. I would suggest you forget about the .25ACP, and have serious reservations about the .22lr models, but the .32 ACP, is available in comfortable pocket sized pistols.

The Berretta Tomcat in .32 ACP as has been mentioned by other posts is probably the most popular tip up barrel pistol. I owned one and loved it. It was a good marriage of size and round and weight. It did have a fairly snappy recoil, but was manageable. It does have a serious manufacturing problem with cracking the frame if hot ammunition is used, this results in serious accuracy problems. Mine cracked and I tried to use ammunition within the range specified by the manufacturer. It was replaced by the factory but I'm carrying something else now. But for the frame crack, I'd be carrying it still. I liked the pistol a lot.

The difficulty with racking a slide is really the combination of three things, 1) technique (please do read up at the cornered cat) 2) grip strength, and 3) the strength of the recoil spring.

Because of #3 blow back operated pistols (like the tip up guns, or many .32 and .380s on the market) have a hard slide. Locked breach guns generally have lighter recoil springs and so are easier to rack.

As was mentioned above the sig p238, though price, is a real easy shooter and has a real nice slide because of the combination of locked breach, the round it shoots, and the weight of the frame (all things which are used to determine how strong a spring is needed in the slide).

If you don't like revolvers (my wife hates the long double action pull) go to the gun shop and ask to try rack a bunch of different guns. If you know that is the problem you are having, find something that works with that issue first, and then address the other things.

Congratulations on making a good choice to take responsibility for your own safety. Good luck. Hope you will continue to hang around the Highroad.

 

[bigfatdave]

That, even though I excercise regularly with the attached device, which allows one to work individual fingers and has a sort of halfassed backstrap-feel to it. (I got this one from my LGS, but I think you can get them at music stores.

Amazon has them, they're even available for Prime if you're into that:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000UMHURY/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Just ordered this one and a set of these:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000NJHD1W/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Those weights would probably not be correct for someone with trouble racking a slide, at least not at first. Lighter versions are available, of course.

 

[C0untZer0]

About a year ago I noticed that after 15 or 20 minutes of shooting offhand, my arms were tired, and I was getting tremors. So basically after 20 minutes of shooting I was done. Every morning I did pushups, situps, leglifts and curls with 30 lb dumbells. I also ran and did cycling.

I have a routine now that I do to keep muscle mass in my shoulders and forearms, as well as keep my grip strong, and it has made a huge difference in keeping a steady sight picture, and being able to shoot better for extended range sessions:


Hammer curls:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Brachioradialis/DBHammerCurl.html


Ulnar dumbell:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/WristFlexors/DBUlnarFlexion.html


Wrist curls:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/WristFlexors/DBWristCurl.html


Reverse wrist curls:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/WristExtensors/DBReverseWristCurl.html



.

 

[C0untZer0]

Wrist roller:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/WristExtensors/CBRollerWristExtention.html



I also exercise the fingers to improve grip. I notice it's improved my ability to hold a steady sight picture for longer range sessions:

I use Captains of Crush and adjustable grippers to strengthen my grip and to increase muscle mass in my forearms:

I also use meridian balls to work my hands out. The guy in this video makes it look easy, but it's not. And when I do this 200 times with 1¼ lb steel balls - all the tiny muscles in my hands are sore - which is a sign that they are getting worked out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-bGPcdL4nU&feature=player_embedded#t=0s




.

 

[paradox998]

Careful on Tomcats. I purchased a new one and it cracked in the first 50 rounds. Beretta replaced it and the second one cracked just like the first one. They replaced it with a 9mm. The stainless are supposed to be ok, but watch the blued version.

 

[MICHAEL T]

The women in my family all carry the Kel Tec P-32 Wife has a kahr 9mm but carries the 32 .
I think to much made of caliber 32 been around for many years. Was a common carry caliber in pre WWII years.

If you can't shoot it or won't carry it because of size doesn't matter what caliber it is .

Learn to shoot a 32 and I think you would be well off.

 

[Farnorthdan]

Welcome to THR, I agree with others here that have recommended a revolver, they are so much easier to operate especially under stress. A revolver is what my wife has chosen to carry for protection and its perfect for her. She didnt like the recoil of the .380 as most are blow back design and can be a little harsh for some.

 

[gazpacho]

Another recommendation for a revolver. In a high stress situation, nothing is easier to use than a revolver. If weight is not a problem, then I would recommend a steel Smith and Wesson J-Frame revolver in .38 Special. The steel will tame the recoil to pleasant levels. This is conducive to frequent practice. If you can handle a little more recoil, then an aluminum framed revolver would make an easier handgun to carry. Avoid the scandium or titanium framed revolvers until you gain more experience.

 

[snooperman]

My wife carries the new Walther PK 380, which is a locked breech gun; Low recoil and very easy to rack the slide. I can not think of a better semi auto including the more expensive SIG P238. It is a real joy to shoot amd much, much easier for the ladies to master than the PPK, blowback gun. Just a thought , Snoop

 

[230RN]

^
Just so you know...,. Walther PK 380 recall:

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/walther-pk380-safety-recall/

Terry, 230RN

 

[HankR]

The main problem women face in legally carrying a gun in permit states is getting the permit

Baloney. I'm in a "permit state" and this is not true. My wife did joke that her weight (required on the form) was none of their business, but I think it was a joke. No other issues with the state. It did take me awhile to convince her to get it, since we live in a free enough state that a loaded gun in the car is OK w/out the permit. I wanted her to have it just in case she decides to carry on short notice or if she's in our car w/ my gun in another state (that honors our permits).

Careful on Tomcats...(slide?) cracked ...stainless are supposed to be ok, but watch the blued version.

Ditto on this, only I was afraid to shoot the new one so it's in a box somewhere. I have the .22 version (bobcat?), it worked fine and dandy, but the .32 didn't work from the start. Beretta kept saying "shoot it more, it's not broken in", then when I finally sent it in "how many rounds did you shoot, this thing is worn out" (after about 300 rounds). Then they lost the gun for awhile and finally (claim to have) found it but replaced it due to a cracked slide. This was actually a good thing (tm), as the wife learned to shoot a 9mm while it was gone, and decided the felt recoil was less w/ the 9mm. I think I fired 2 mags through the new gun, cleaned it and tossed in in the back of the safe.

 

[tarosean]

Back to semi's, have you looked at a Walther PPK?

If she was having trouble with slide racking, a ppk is about the worst thing to mention IMO much less that 500lb DA pull. It pains me to say that as I do like them

In looking for something a little easier for me, I discovered the Beretta Cheetah. I simply like the look and thought I might be able to handle it. I am looking for a range near me where I might be able to rent a few,

Personally I would suggest stop looking at the little small "pocket" pistols. They are not enjoyable to shoot and can be a pain to operate. The only thing they have going for them is they are easily dropped in a pocket or hidden. As a self proclaimed "newbie" you don't want all your experiences to be bad or difficult.

My wife was in those shoes thinking smaller was better and was always intimidated by my full size guns, caliber didn't matter.. That is until I sent her to a marksmanship class and she realized that the bigger guns were easier in ever aspect. (Racking, loading, less recoil, bigger easier to use buttons and levers, etc.)

She settled on a Glock 19 for her CHL.

 

[golden]

Beretta is the only choice

2blessu,

My wife has problems with operating a slide as well.

Contrary to what some people have said, the issue is NOT YOU, it is just the way things are. So ignore them.

The BERETTA .380 CHETTAH model 86 was the large tip up pistol. It has been discontinued and is going for a premium price now.

The BERETTA Tomcat is a very compact .32ACP that is VERY RELIABLE and well made. I found it very easy to shoot and it handles well for me.
Then my wife tried it and that was the last I saw of it.

She cannot retract a slide due to age and lack of wrist strength, yet she can operate the BERETTA Tomcat just fine.
It has the tip up barrel, so when you load, pop the barrel, insert a round and close the barrel, then insert a loaded magazine. ONLY DO THIS WITH THE HAMMER IN THE DOWN POSITION. When the barrel is up, you can pull the trigger and lower the hammer without fear of the gun going off.

If you cock the hammer before trying to rack the slide, it will be easier. When I want to check if one of my pistols is loaded, I cock the hammer first, keeping my finger AWAY FROM THE TRIGGER and the retract the slide. This works fine with pistols that have a hammer like the BERETTA and SIG.

Before you go with the BERETTA Tomcat, see if cocking the hammer first helps. On the SIG 232 and BERETTA Chettah series (model 82, 84, 85 and 86), it makes it much easier to retract the slide.
The SIG and NEW BERETTA Chettah models can safely drop the hammer for you after the slide has been retracted.
On the SIG, the lever on the left side of the pistol lowers the hammer. On the BERETTA, the safety lever will do it.

One thing, the BERETTA Tomcat can be ammo sensitive. My first Tomcat would not shoot WINCHESTER fmj ammo because the bullets had a flat tip. My second Tomcat ( I could not live without another one after my wife took the first) will shot anything.
I have found that not all hollow points will feed 100%. I use the CORBON Powerball in my guns because it is shaped like ball ammo and always feeds.

Hope this helps.

Jim

 

[glassman]

I also had the slide crack on my tomcat after very few rounds down range. Beretta replaced it with an Inox version and it has been fine since then. I carry it when the situation dictates but I'd rather have my trusted revolver (642) with me.

 

[bigfatdave]

The OP, 2BlessU hasn't been here for a while

Last Activity: March 2, 2013 11:06 PM