Thoughts on Penetration

[PRM]

I keep reading about concerns of over penetration. When you look at FBI statistics on police officer shootings (trained shooters and I'm not debating that), under stress consistently hit 2 out of 10 rounds (some years 15% others 18%...). I strongly suspect that this does not change significantly with civilian shootings. Heck, lets say for arguments sake even 40% of the shots impact the intended target. Why is everyone so concerned with the percentage of rounds that impact the target over penetrating, when the majority of the rounds speed past it into the unknown.

 

[bigfatdave]

Why is everyone so concerned with the percentage of rounds that impact the target over penetrating, when the majority of the rounds speed past it into the unknown.

Damned if I know, this is why I laugh at all the magic bullet designs that claim they won't penetrate through a target.
Also why I laugh at hardware solutions to software problems (AKA people who buy gear instead of getting training time or at least range time)

 

[Loyalist Dave]

You make a good point, for there are many examples of BG's shooting at other BG's and missing, and striking some innocent person down the street or inside a home.

LD

 

[weregunner]

The reasons are for ethical and moral ones. You are responsible for each and every round or projectile that is sent by you. If it hits something and that includes people, then you bought it.

It's all in here.
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=40112.msg481931#msg481931
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=40112.msg482035#msg482035

Life is precious. So ,tough stuff, things happen, won't cut it. That's by law and for moral reasons. One has to take repsonsibility for their actions. If they won't they should not ever own a gun of any kind.

With deadly force comes incredible responsibility.

 

[PRM]

The reasons are for ethical and moral ones. You are responsible for each and every round or projectile that is sent by you. If it hits something and that includes people, then you bought it.~weregunner

That is my point. I see more of a concern in posts and articles with the smaller percentage of rounds that actually go where they are intended than the larger percentage that don't. It seems strange that writers and shooters place heavy emphasis on the issue of over penetration and rarely think about the other. I am in agreement that you are responsible for every round regardless of where it goes.

 

[Hk Dan]

Weregunner--that's true (morally) and it's not (legally). In a justified self defense shooting, the person who is responsible for the use of deadly force is generally responsible for the result. So, 2 guys rob a bank. One is shot dead and the other is caught, the partner is probably charged with the murder of his accompolice even though someone else shot him. Same/same for innocent bystanders (usually).

Now, talking with an ER surgeon who is an LFI affiliate trainer, Jim told me that fully 90% or more bullets that directly impact a body go through and through. He said "Unless they hit the T-Spine or femur--some large structure--they're going out."

I'm not saying we should casually disregard innocent bystanders, but that we should be aware of our backstop if possible--if possible.

 

[Sgt_R]

HK - it depends on the state. As I understand the law in Ohio, if someone breaks into my apartment and I shoot them, I'm in the clear. However, if one of my rounds goes through the wall and hits my neighbor, then it is I, not the burglar, who will be prosecuted for that shot.

Edit: I should have said that it MAY depend on the state. I'm not familiar enough with the laws outside Ohio to say for sure.

R

 

[Old krow]

When you look at FBI statistics on police officer shootings (trained shooters and I'm not debating that), under stress consistently hit 2 out of 10 rounds (some years 15% others 18%...). I strongly suspect that this does not change significantly with civilian shootings.

Perhaps, but statistics are a funny thing. They have to be kept in perspective to worth anything. One of the major differences between myself and a cop in this case is that the cop is a "responder" and I am a defender. He's having to go to the fight, I am not. The only way that those statistics could be applied to HD is if the cops were shooting inside their own homes. The reason that this gives me an advantage over a cop is I have the option of making myself a hard target. The BG gets to choose when, I chose where, the cop chooses neither.

Why is everyone so concerned with the percentage of rounds that impact the target over penetrating, when the majority of the rounds speed past it into the unknown.

Some rounds are designed to fragment as soon as they make contact with anything. This is so when you do miss the bullet will start coming apart when it hits your wall in hopes that by the time it hits the neighbors wall it will not penetrate. Over penetration is a subject for misses as well as hits, probably more so for misses.

Now, talking with an ER surgeon who is an LFI affiliate trainer, Jim told me that fully 90% or more bullets that directly impact a body go through and through. He said "Unless they hit the T-Spine or femur--some large structure--they're going out."

I have read the same thing. However, most HD rounds are not traveling fast enough after going thru a human (COM shot) to go thru an exterior wall. That's the design anyway.

I have found that the Box of Truth is a pretty good source for penetration issues. I don't know if I'd call it "the be all end all" of penetration resources, but it compares rounds pretty equally and you can see how they stack up against each other.

Ultimately safety/security IMHO is a recipe best made in layers. There is no silver bullet, aside from living in a bubble, and there probably never will be.
There is no substitute for practice.
Dogs are a great deterrent.

 

[xXxplosive]

Remember 2 incidents in NJ years ago.........
One where a woman was being held with a knife at her throat on the sidewalk in front of an apartment complex.......LE fired 20 shots with the BG being hit once in the ankle and I believe he did cut her throat.

The other was on a highway at rush hour with a bend in it with on comming traffic. LE tried to stop some fugetives in a car, shots rang out and an innocent driver was killed with a stray shot comming through the windshield of his vehicle in on-comming traffic in the opposite lane.

Both terrible, IMO..............

 

[Shadow 7D]

If you are concerned, BUY a Tokarev, no issues, the original 5.7FN, guaranteed to go through just about anything.

Still I wonder about accuracy, but then when I was in the army, I had a buddy get hit by a ricochet off a rock 15' infront of the Firing line, stupid tanker couldn't even hit a 25' target....

 

[Shawn Dodson]

"Overpenetration" is nonsense that assumes the bullet hits the bad guy's body squarely center of mass.

Many bullets hit the periphery of the bad guy's body, in which the short penetration path allows the bullet to exit.

Extremity hits also present a short penetration path.

 

[weregunner]

If you hit the anyone else than the attacker/s then you can and will be tried for it.

Mas Ayoob has this all documented regularly in his books,magazine articles,and police journals and this has been so for decades now.

He's a member of the THE trial lawyers association who are THE cutting edge professionals who try the facts every day. This is just not some whim or fiction. This is right form the horse's mouth. And Mas has the credentials for this as he has been in the courts defending police and civilians alike who were honest and not guilty.

 

[Cosmoline]

If the bullet has enough energy to be useful, then it has enough energy to penetrate through the target OR MISS THE TARGET and still be lethal. There are ways to reduce the danger, but not eliminate it. The very BEST way to reduce the danger is to fire as few rounds as possible as accurately as possible and do as much damage as possible. In that sense, a full powered hunting rifle's softpoint is less of a danger in a crowded apartment than a spray of 9x19's or .40's from a semi. Because you're only taking one or two rolls of the dice. Everytime you have to fire, you roll the dice again.

He's a member of the THE trial lawyers association

I don't think Mas is a member of the American Trial Lawyers Association. LOL

I HOPE he isn't! Those people are the enemies of my blood.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Actually, mas is, I believe he is the only non lawyer to chair a committee, it was ONE of the big lawyer associations.

as a certified police prosecutor for the State of New Hampshire, as an expert witness, and as Vice Chair of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (NACDL), the only non-attorney ever to hold this position.

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/XI2.html
http://www.ayoob.com/AboutMas.html

Are those people your blood enemies too Cos??

 

[Cosmoline]

The American Trial Lawyers Association--ATLA--is not the same thing as the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers--NACDL. ATLA is a viper pit, and their anti-gun outlook is exceeded only by their raw greed. So you have to be careful when you say someone is in the "trial lawyer's association."

 

[_N4Z_]

Entertaining mall ninja's. Who else can we quote as gospel, be all, end all absolute answer, for those rare situations that can not typically be anticipated? Silver bullet advice and answers to an equation with infinite variables.

If you find yourself in a life threatening situation you cope as best you can, as quickly as possible, with the cards being dealt. If one night you find thug coming through your window, with a sense of purpose, are you going to stop his advance ASAP, or hesitate while you revisit this discussion in your head?

Worried about what's behind thug - or perhaps you are not well versed with your particular tool(s)? Getcha some Glasers or some other glitzy exotic. I hope it works for you. Maybe you can politely ask thug for a "time-out", while you sneak a peak behind him and make sure there aren't any pets, kids, or surfers riding in his wake.

I'm going to do my best to make two big holes in thug (front and back), to ventilate his innards and fluids to the outside world. Hell, maybe thug will have friends bringing up the rear, and I'll tag two or more birds with one stone.

No, I'm not going to try and hit the neighbors, but I am also not going to take a chance with my family or myself. Priorities.

 

[Shadow 7D]

HUH, the point is any round with adequate penetration is going to risk over penetration because humans, UNLIKE GEL are not a homogeneous mass.

And it all comes down to placement, don't miss, and if it does go through, most of energy should be expended.

 

[_N4Z_]

Hmmm, ya... Sorry. Went off on a bit of a rant there.


Penetration is good. Two holes better than one.

Yes to placement.


Just say no to "overpenetration" nonsense.

 

[bluetopper]

Amen.......accuracy is King, penetration is Queen.

All my ammo is my reloaded cast lead wadcutters or semi wadcutters intended for match competition accuracy. I don't buy in to the hyped up super duper kill all bullets

 

[Shadow 7D]

Superduper killer bullets

I do.

For some reason the ATF frowns on explosive 20mm rounds