Pistol Penetration Thoughts
- Thread starter Nightcrawler
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UnSafe
Member
I find it interesting that so many firearms, fitness, tactical and even medical journalists feel the need to decide what SOCOM soldiers carry and how to tackle their missions. If they (SOCOM Soldiers) want help, they know where to ask. And yes, within USASOC you'll find a VERY open mindset that is willing to look at and try new (Or old) ideas to accomplish whatever mission being faced.
Maybe if all of the journalists and so called "Experts" raised their right hands, finished a couple of years in the Infantry, applied for and successfully finished the SFQC or OTC, and once finally assigned to a team kept their heads above water long enough to figure out what's good/bad or just a plain 'ol piece of stool- THEN they might have theories or ideas that MAY be considered as legit within the community.
That being said, there's a bunch of former SF guys that hawk various equipment or Combatives/ Self Defense training programs (For a fee..) so ideas from the inside don't necessarily have merit JUST because of the inside source.
I spent my time as an 18D (Army SF Medical NCO) in A 3/5 SFG (ODA 572), then returned as the PA for 2/10 SFG, and can confirm the following- If an Individual/ ODA/ Company/ BN or Group wants to carry 1911's over a M9's (Or T/C Contenders in .22LR for that matter
) and there's no reason to prohibit it (Like lack of specific ammo or repair part availability- it happens), they'll do it (Sometimes the bosses don't know).
From my limited experience and from the guys I've grown up and old with- A rattling old 1911 with 230gr ball x7+1 in the pipe beats a M9 with 15+1 (Or any other 9mm). It's a subjective thing that never really needed defending anyway.
Respectfully,
Paul W. Crowl
CPT (Ret), USA
Maybe if all of the journalists and so called "Experts" raised their right hands, finished a couple of years in the Infantry, applied for and successfully finished the SFQC or OTC, and once finally assigned to a team kept their heads above water long enough to figure out what's good/bad or just a plain 'ol piece of stool- THEN they might have theories or ideas that MAY be considered as legit within the community.
That being said, there's a bunch of former SF guys that hawk various equipment or Combatives/ Self Defense training programs (For a fee..) so ideas from the inside don't necessarily have merit JUST because of the inside source.
I spent my time as an 18D (Army SF Medical NCO) in A 3/5 SFG (ODA 572), then returned as the PA for 2/10 SFG, and can confirm the following- If an Individual/ ODA/ Company/ BN or Group wants to carry 1911's over a M9's (Or T/C Contenders in .22LR for that matter
) and there's no reason to prohibit it (Like lack of specific ammo or repair part availability- it happens), they'll do it (Sometimes the bosses don't know). From my limited experience and from the guys I've grown up and old with- A rattling old 1911 with 230gr ball x7+1 in the pipe beats a M9 with 15+1 (Or any other 9mm). It's a subjective thing that never really needed defending anyway.
Respectfully,
Paul W. Crowl
CPT (Ret), USA
Pat_Rogers
Member in memoriam
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- 166
MEU(SOC) Pistol
Hi Jeff,
Race gun, huh?
While everyone is entitled to their opinion, UnSafe has said it best in his missive. I too am constantly amazed at how people who have no real experience can- and do- criticize anything that has to do with any military or police operation, weapon , or equipment- based apparently on their great experience acquired over the errornet.
I don't know or know of Mr. Mullin. However, i find immediately suspect any story/ article that can mis identify a unit so badly ("special expeditionary recon Marine unit") when the actual users- they being only the Marines and Sailors in the Force Reconnaissance community are open source to anyone interested.
This is akin to the print media using terminology such as "semi automatic revolver" {unless the perp really did have the famous Zardoz gun} etc.
As to the Pistol, Caliber .45, MEU(SOC) being a "race gun", well, that is kind of silly. The MEU(SOC) pistol, having been around since 86, is anything but.
It is a functional working gun, and well suited to the user community.
It is interesting to note that the commercial variant MEU(SOC) will still be a 1911, and the Kimber ICQB- used by MCSOCOM Det 1 is also a 1911.
Mr. Mullin is entitled to his opinion. However, the users of the MEU(SOC) have a different opinion, and they actually do use the pistol.
I am curious as to if the author has ever seen, in person, this pistol?
It is doubtful, as there are very few around, and none in the economy.
Mistakes, falsehoods and myths are commonly reproduced in print, electrons and tape.
The History Channel had noted firearms author Charlie Cutshaw holding what he purported to be a MEU(SOC) pistol during one of their "gun" series. It most assuredly was not- not even close.
Dr. Lee Atwater, curator of the Ordnance Museum at APG was on air passing on the myth that the Model of 1918 Browning Automatic Rifle was not issued to the AEF to prevent it from falling into enemy hands. This is not supported factually- see "Rock in a Hard Place" for more information.
And just this month, a story in SOF claims that Det 1 has adopted the SureFire FA suppressor- which is not true- a problem writing about something when one has no access to the users.
Hi Jeff,
Race gun, huh?
While everyone is entitled to their opinion, UnSafe has said it best in his missive. I too am constantly amazed at how people who have no real experience can- and do- criticize anything that has to do with any military or police operation, weapon , or equipment- based apparently on their great experience acquired over the errornet.
I don't know or know of Mr. Mullin. However, i find immediately suspect any story/ article that can mis identify a unit so badly ("special expeditionary recon Marine unit") when the actual users- they being only the Marines and Sailors in the Force Reconnaissance community are open source to anyone interested.
This is akin to the print media using terminology such as "semi automatic revolver" {unless the perp really did have the famous Zardoz gun} etc.
As to the Pistol, Caliber .45, MEU(SOC) being a "race gun", well, that is kind of silly. The MEU(SOC) pistol, having been around since 86, is anything but.
It is a functional working gun, and well suited to the user community.
It is interesting to note that the commercial variant MEU(SOC) will still be a 1911, and the Kimber ICQB- used by MCSOCOM Det 1 is also a 1911.
Mr. Mullin is entitled to his opinion. However, the users of the MEU(SOC) have a different opinion, and they actually do use the pistol.
I am curious as to if the author has ever seen, in person, this pistol?
It is doubtful, as there are very few around, and none in the economy.
Mistakes, falsehoods and myths are commonly reproduced in print, electrons and tape.
The History Channel had noted firearms author Charlie Cutshaw holding what he purported to be a MEU(SOC) pistol during one of their "gun" series. It most assuredly was not- not even close.
Dr. Lee Atwater, curator of the Ordnance Museum at APG was on air passing on the myth that the Model of 1918 Browning Automatic Rifle was not issued to the AEF to prevent it from falling into enemy hands. This is not supported factually- see "Rock in a Hard Place" for more information.
And just this month, a story in SOF claims that Det 1 has adopted the SureFire FA suppressor- which is not true- a problem writing about something when one has no access to the users.
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Actually, that gives me an idea.UnSafe
Member
Didn't want to sound too preachy, but armchair experts irk me.
To add- I attended, then worked for a while at the old Mott lake SOT course (Now SFARTIC) at Ft. Bragg, NC and spent many rounds with a rattly old Remington Rand 1911. Did it FTF and FTE once in a rare while, yes, but not very often and besides, it's a good check to see if you can clear a stoppage while moving at night. The point is, that old (1940's?) pistol with parts replaced from a bin- no time for matching or testing, shot consistently and accurately for over 10K rounds from my hands.
Granted, many pistols will work with a high degree of reliability, but my experience had made me a 1911 fan forever.
To add- I attended, then worked for a while at the old Mott lake SOT course (Now SFARTIC) at Ft. Bragg, NC and spent many rounds with a rattly old Remington Rand 1911. Did it FTF and FTE once in a rare while, yes, but not very often and besides, it's a good check to see if you can clear a stoppage while moving at night. The point is, that old (1940's?) pistol with parts replaced from a bin- no time for matching or testing, shot consistently and accurately for over 10K rounds from my hands.
Granted, many pistols will work with a high degree of reliability, but my experience had made me a 1911 fan forever.
Pat_Rogers
Member in memoriam
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2002
- Messages
- 166
Preach- it helps to offset the nonsense that sometimes goes on.
Besides, you earned that right.
Jeff- i truly enjoyed your post- as always...
Besides, you earned that right.
Jeff- i truly enjoyed your post- as always...
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