Thoughts on the 2nd Amendment (long-ish)

Status
Not open for further replies.
As aforementioned, Syria is an interesting case study. I could be mistaken, but I don't think their populace has any sort of right to keep and bear arms, and I highly doubt their military takes an oath to a constitution. Yet the rebels are putting up the good fight, they've managed to get a hold of the standard compliment of PKMs, Dragunovs, and AKs, and they're making IEDs to good effect.

Some of their military has defected to the rebellion and there was an Associated Press article about a week ago speculating that the reason their air force seems to be rather ineffective in the fight is that their pilots are missing on purpose.

You also have to bear in mind that as an insurgent you don't want to fight the military anyway. By assassinating mayors, police chiefs, and other local government officials the insurgent can deny the government the means to effectively exercise control. By constantly sowing the roads with IEDs the insurgent can deny them freedom of movement as well. What the insurgent really needs is the support of a significant percent of the local populace. Given that, the will to fight, and some creativity he can go far.

Edit to add: I suck at reading comprehension.
 
Last edited:

As long as our glorious leaders understand that "crossing the Rubicon" to the widespread use of naked violence would alter the world in ways they would find unpleasant and irreversible, there is little danger (IMHO) of it happening anytime soon. When the sun rises on a day that most of them don't understand this, or just don't care (too many years in D.C. might do it), then we may be in trouble. I suspect that a fair number of them would sanction such action to stay in power if they thought it was do-able. Most of them, hopefully, realize that the unintended consequences of such barbarity would not work out well for them.

FWIW all of my children served in the military. All of them said the same thing; "The day I am ordered to fire on, round up, or seize the firearms of, private citizens is the day I take off the uniform and take up arms AGAINST the government. The majority of veterans I have queried on this subject say the same thing. How many veterans are out there? I bet most of them still know how to shoot just fine.
 
I think when they wrote the 2nd they where thinking of a "war of 1812" event. The wanted the population to be able to band together and be a force to deal with when a foreign invader came after us. Also, I believe, all of the bill of rights was candy to the people to gather support for the Constitution and US government.
I wonder if they knew how critically important the 1st and 2nd amendments would become in slowing down an out-of-control government like we have today.
The first and second amendments are what make this country truly special and exceptional in my opinion. I believe the government would get rid of both of them if there was a new Constitutional convention.
 
But I don't see how the 2A any longer fulfills the intent of the Founders.

Really? The Founder's intent was to insure that the government, its minions, and its running dog enforcers, were not the only ones with access to the means of coercive force. In light of the catastrophe in place now, I argue that it was never needed more and fulfils the Founder's intent precisely.
 
Philosophy notwithstanding, as a practical matter I maintain that most of us own firearms for protection against each other, and as a distant second, for the overthrow of a tyrannical government. That is the major difference between then and now.

I must disagree. I think the primary purpose of owning weapons in the 18th Century was the same then as now. For protection against each other, hunting and as a distant third, as a defense against a tyrannical government.

It is just looking in hindsight, that the role of protection against a tyrannical government gained such prominence. At least that is my opinion. The number of people who actually took up arms was quite small, 3% is the number often used, and no more than one third of the population supported the American revolution either.
 

As long as our glorious leaders understand that "crossing the Rubicon" to the widespread use of naked violence would alter the world in ways they would find unpleasant and irreversible, there is little danger (IMHO) of it happening anytime soon. When the sun rises on a day that most of them don't understand this, or just don't care (too many years in D.C. might do it), then we may be in trouble. I suspect that a fair number of them would sanction such action to stay in power if they thought it was do-able. Most of them, hopefully, realize that the unintended consequences of such barbarity would not work out well for them.

FWIW all of my children served in the military. All of them said the same thing; "The day I am ordered to fire on, round up, or seize the firearms of, private citizens is the day I take off the uniform and take up arms AGAINST the government. The majority of veterans I have queried on this subject say the same thing. How many veterans are out there? I bet most of them still know how to shoot just fine.


All very fine, and I have no doubt your children mean it, but the U. S. Government has taken up arms against it's people before. Remember the War Between the States also known as the Civil War. Admitted, it was different times, with a lot very passionate feeling on all sides, but it happened anyway. Yes the army split, but a large fraction of it was quite willing to take up arms against it's fellow citizens who wished to leave the Union.

I don't know what could cause that much of split today, but I can imagine several scenarios, although they are all (hopefully) unlikely. But it could happen if the right circumstances take place. If the army was given sufficient reason to coerce a portion of the Citizenry, I have no doubt it would do so, even if many refused orders.
 
But I don't see how the 2A any longer fulfills the intent of the Founders.

Really? The Founder's intent was to insure that the government, its minions, and its running dog enforcers, were not the only ones with access to the means of coercive force. In light of the catastrophe in place now, I argue that it was never needed more and fulfils the Founder's intent precisely.

Far, far more important than coercive force by weapons in the hands of citizens is communications and assembly in the hands of citizens.

Even if a rogue government can kill 40 million citizens like we saw in the last century, it can only get away with that by controlling communications and assembly.

Two things need to become recognized as modern assembly. First is this very forum and its brothers, both on the left and right. We can't have a "town hall meeting" in the Old North Meeting House any more and call it sufficient. And the second is call in talk radio. Those are modern day assembly.

MB
 
Two things need to become recognized as modern assembly. First is this very forum and its brothers, both on the left and right. We can't have a "town hall meeting" in the Old North Meeting House any more and call it sufficient. And the second is call in talk radio. Those are modern day assembly.

MB

I agree one hundred per cent!
 
Let's ask the question again

So, as I understand the interpretation of the 2A, it is designed to allow all citizens to own and maintain arms, with the ultimate intent to, if needed, enable the formation of a militia to overthrow an ill-willed government once again, as was done during the Revolution.

I disagree with this interpretation. The militia really played a rather small role in the American Revolution, and it was the Continental Army which really threw off "an ill-willed government." The militiamen were, generally speaking, unruly, undisciplined, illequiped and unprepared for war. They would leave in the spring for planting season (the best time for military campaign), and would follow State aims rather than national goals. This same problem often occurred during the War Between the States, when individual state Governors would often recall their soldiers to protect their state, at the expense of the national goal of protecting the Confederacy.

Stepping back, one of the founder's biggest fears was a standing army (E.g., "He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures." Declaration of Independence). They were concerned that a large national army would be expensive to maintain, antithetical to the interests of the nation as a whole, serving the interests of the larger states like Virginia and New York over those of the smaller states, and could be co-opted by Generals or Presidents in a reach for power.

The 2nd Amendment is not the only location in the Constitution where the militia is mentioned. Article 1, Section 8, Clauses 15 and 16 state, respectively: "[Congress shall have the power] to provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress."

Pulling this all together, the militia is designed to strike a very careful balance between a large standing armies, and being defenseless. By ensuring that a militia exists which can be called forth as needed (as in the War Between the States, WWII, Korea, and the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, and certainly others. These are just the instances I am aware of), it becomes duplicative and unnecessary to have a large standing army. The militia remains in the hands of the States when not in service of the national government, helping to ensure that the militia not become a national tool against liberty, or too expensive.

Nowhere does it say, imply, or hint that the founders had in mind a militia designed to overthrow the government they had just created. Rather, the militia is to "suppress insurrection and repel invasion."

While a well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free people, it is not a tool to overthrow the national government. It is not designed to be the insurrection which it is supposed to put down. The militia acts as security for free people by preventing the need for large standing armies in times of peace. It develops a certain level of preparedness during times of peace which is not under the control of the national government, and which simultaneously prevents us being caught off-guard when the peace loving nation of the United States is unwillingly forced into war.

Now, I read the 2A as granting an individual rkba. While State's do have vast powers over the militia, they cannot take away an individuals right to keep and bear arms, as that would effectively eliminate the (armed) militia, thereby subverting the entire premise of the 2A.

What arms does this allow us to keep? I can't really answer that. But it may help to reframe the question along what I feel are historically and legally accurate grounds.

This thread is largely focusing on what tools we should use to fight our own soldiers (largely ignoring the fact that many of these soldiers are members of this board, as well as our friends and family). Instead, ask yourself during what kind of scenario would your state or national government call forth the unorganized militia (i.e. all men (perhaps women) of military age (18 - 35?), not in the National Guard or other division of the Armed Forces). Perhaps fighting invasions or insurrections. Perhaps facing natural disaster that overwhelmed existing government forces. How can we, as individuals knowingly a part of the militia, best prepare for that emergency? Is it only guns that we need?

"If a well-regulated militia be the most natural defense of a free country, it ought certainly to be under the regulation and at the disposal of that body which is constituted the guardian of the national security. If standing armies are dangerous to liberty, an efficacious power over the militia in the same body ought, as far as possible, to take away the inducement and the pretext to such unfriendly institutions. If the federal government can command the aid of the militia in those emergencies which call for the military arm in support of the civil magistrate, it can the better dispense with the employment of a different kind of force. If it cannot avail itself of the former [i.e., militias], it will be obliged to recur to the latter [standing armies]. To render an army unnecessary will be a more certain method of preventing its existence than a thousand prohibitions upon paper." Federalist No. 29.
 
We are bleeding from a thousand small cuts already. The oppression will continue and when your old and ready to leave this world you will regret not doing more to protect and secure the freedoms of your heirs when you could have. I am no exception and I am disgusted by this epiphany of mine after participating in "Operation Enduring Freedom" (twice) just to come home to see cameras on street lights and universal health care shoved down my throat.
 
It is my impression that the original framers intended, or at minimum envisioned, a citizen's militia much like the Swiss Army used to be. Specifically each eligible citizen of age was expected to remain prepared and was issued a rifle.

I don't think the framers expected the states to issue rifles. But I do think the citizens were expected to be ready to participate in defense.

Today we have a society that wants to believe everything is someone else's job to hand to them, including the idea that national defense is the job of the "professional soldier" only. We desperately need a core professional cadre of soldiers. But we also desperately need for everyone to have some "skin in the game" as one candidate said last election.

The idea that "that's not my problem" for everything needs to change.

MB


So, as I understand the interpretation of the 2A, it is designed to allow all citizens to own and maintain arms, with the ultimate intent to, if needed, enable the formation of a militia to overthrow an ill-willed government once again, as was done during the Revolution.

I disagree with this interpretation. The militia really played a rather small role in the American Revolution, and it was the Continental Army which really threw off "an ill-willed government." The militiamen were, generally speaking, unruly, undisciplined, illequiped and unprepared for war. They would leave in the spring for planting season (the best time for military campaign), and would follow State aims rather than national goals. This same problem often occurred during the War Between the States, when individual state Governors would often recall their soldiers to protect their state, at the expense of the national goal of protecting the Confederacy.

Stepping back, one of the founder's biggest fears was a standing army (E.g., "He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures." Declaration of Independence). They were concerned that a large national army would be expensive to maintain, antithetical to the interests of the nation as a whole, serving the interests of the larger states like Virginia and New York over those of the smaller states, and could be co-opted by Generals or Presidents in a reach for power.

The 2nd Amendment is not the only location in the Constitution where the militia is mentioned. Article 1, Section 8, Clauses 15 and 16 state, respectively: "[Congress shall have the power] to provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress."

Pulling this all together, the militia is designed to strike a very careful balance between a large standing armies, and being defenseless. By ensuring that a militia exists which can be called forth as needed (as in the War Between the States, WWII, Korea, and the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, and certainly others. These are just the instances I am aware of), it becomes duplicative and unnecessary to have a large standing army. The militia remains in the hands of the States when not in service of the national government, helping to ensure that the militia not become a national tool against liberty, or too expensive.

Nowhere does it say, imply, or hint that the founders had in mind a militia designed to overthrow the government they had just created. Rather, the militia is to "suppress insurrection and repel invasion."

While a well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free people, it is not a tool to overthrow the national government. It is not designed to be the insurrection which it is supposed to put down. The militia acts as security for free people by preventing the need for large standing armies in times of peace. It develops a certain level of preparedness during times of peace which is not under the control of the national government, and which simultaneously prevents us being caught off-guard when the peace loving nation of the United States is unwillingly forced into war.

Now, I read the 2A as granting an individual rkba. While State's do have vast powers over the militia, they cannot take away an individuals right to keep and bear arms, as that would effectively eliminate the (armed) militia, thereby subverting the entire premise of the 2A.

What arms does this allow us to keep? I can't really answer that. But it may help to reframe the question along what I feel are historically and legally accurate grounds.

This thread is largely focusing on what tools we should use to fight our own soldiers (largely ignoring the fact that many of these soldiers are members of this board, as well as our friends and family). Instead, ask yourself during what kind of scenario would your state or national government call forth the unorganized militia (i.e. all men (perhaps women) of military age (18 - 35?), not in the National Guard or other division of the Armed Forces). Perhaps fighting invasions or insurrections. Perhaps facing natural disaster that overwhelmed existing government forces. How can we, as individuals knowingly a part of the militia, best prepare for that emergency? Is it only guns that we need?

"If a well-regulated militia be the most natural defense of a free country, it ought certainly to be under the regulation and at the disposal of that body which is constituted the guardian of the national security. If standing armies are dangerous to liberty, an efficacious power over the militia in the same body ought, as far as possible, to take away the inducement and the pretext to such unfriendly institutions. If the federal government can command the aid of the militia in those emergencies which call for the military arm in support of the civil magistrate, it can the better dispense with the employment of a different kind of force. If it cannot avail itself of the former [i.e., militias], it will be obliged to recur to the latter [standing armies]. To render an army unnecessary will be a more certain method of preventing its existence than a thousand prohibitions upon paper." Federalist No. 29.
 
to put a finer point on it, when the populace is unarmed a tyrannical government can put soldiers or paramilitary police into town and go door to door with the batons and guns and other compliance devices and simply say, "get in the trucks, now." any resistance offered by the citizens is relatively minor, relatively non-lethal, and easy to keep out of the spotlight.

When the citizens are armed (in numbers approaching 50% of house holds, and those house holds often holding more than one firearm) the resistance offered can be far more effective, far more bloody, carried out from greater distances -- and facing and crushing that resistance involves death on both sides. That's something that does get lots of attention and spreads the awareness and alarm of the general population throughout the rest of the country.

Further, our soldiers come from our citizenry. They are obviously willing to follow orders, to one degree or another, but there is quite a psychological difference between controlling rioters and forcibly detaining and even displacing other american citizens, and shooting them dead.

If the citizens in revolt are armed, those young men in uniform will have to be ordered to kill them, and that's a very big deal.

^^^^ this...
 
And this...

Things change: politics, policy, technology, etc.
What hasn't changed since the 2nd Amendment is the right of a nations people (who value that nation and it's Just and Fair existance) be allowed to defend themselves, there families.. and said nation.

The authors of the 2nd Amendment were still in the process of building And maintaining the nation that we live in today. They knew that an armed citizenry would be better able to defend not only themselves but also the nation that they envisioned. THAT has not changed...
 
I like to reference the Federalist Paper #46 when it comes to what the founders' "intent" was, to glean just a bit more insight into their frame of mind.

http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa46.htm

Basically, he acknowledges that the odds of the federal government becoming tyrannical are slim:

That the people and the States should, for a sufficient period of time, elect an uninterupted succession of men ready to betray both; that the traitors should, throughout this period, uniformly and systematically pursue some fixed plan for the extension of the military establishment; that the governments and the people of the States should silently and patiently behold the gathering storm, and continue to supply the materials, until it should be prepared to burst on their own heads, must appear to every one more like the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy, or the misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal, than like the sober apprehensions of genuine patriotism.

However, for the sake of argument....

Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be made. Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it.

From this it appears clear to me that the founders DID intend the second amendment to at least partially be for the purposes of defying an overzealous federal government. Of course they could not have anticipated the weapons available to the military nowadays, and how they would compare, but the intent is pretty clear to me. Then this tidbit:

Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of.

To me, that basically says what Sam1911 is saying. That it isn't just a matter of "could we beat the federal government if it came down to it?" It is a matter of whether or not it would be worth it to them.
 
This is a very interesting thread. Glad I started it, and hope it continues. I will say that it captures my personal confusion about what was intended by the 2A and why gun owners who cite the 2A as the root reason for ensuring their RKBA find it such a challenge in convincing non-believers.
I have not done what I should do, which is to survey the research of Constitutional scholars and see what the consensus is. That is, hopefully objective and unbiased historians (individually or on average) will have a sentiment in line with those of gun owners. Should that be the case, I think it would behoove the gun-owner community to get their story straight. To line up behind one simple interpretation of the 2A that has the corroboration of trusted historians to simplify the argument behind this important issue.
B
 
Get our story straight? What does that mean? You get your own story straight. The court has ruled in the heller case that the 2nd amendment protects the individual fundamental right to keep and bear arms, and the reason for the holding is explained in that decision. Your attempt to "re-interpret" the right to somehow define it in "modern times " was rejected by the court, too.

Let us know what you decide. :)
 
My rather simplistic approach defines my thoughts on this thread. I have a God given right to defend myself, family and whatever I wish with whatever is available to me. The 2nd Amendment covers what I already have, only affirms the government was formed for the common good, mainly defense. I have only my personal limitations as to weapons I may use, have used and hopefully never need again. I will do what is necessary for me and mine to survive. Very simple and easy to live with.
 
Call me a hopeless pollyanna, but I just can't buy into this paranoid talk of "defending ourselves against the federal government."

Certainly it's theoretically possible, but practically speaking, when I imagine us using our 2nd Amendent rights to defend our way of life against a tyrannical government, it is not the government of the United States that I see as the enemy, but some outside force.

For all its faults our government represents what the majority in this country has chosen, for better or for worse. Presidents and administrations come and go. We have the ability to get rid of them every four years at the ballot box.

I had the privilege to go to war under two presidents, (one "D" and one "R") without liking, respecting, or agreeing with either president, either administration, or with their policies. Didn't matter, I didn't go for them, I went for my country.

They're long gone, we're still here, and so is America.

Happy 236th Birthday, and many, many more to follow.

Tinpig
 
I agree that it should absolutely be interpreted as having access to the same resources as the government. This isn't Russia. In my opinion from the start the government should not be allowed access to anything citizens can't. Kind of like you should be able to have a beer even as a teenager. However, to suddenly change the rules (in both cases) would be disastrous. Suddenly giving citizens access to nukes or telling teenagers they can drink wouldn't be practical.
But the separation of rights to the government vs the citizens is the first step to disarming/slavery.
 
I agree that it should absolutely be interpreted as having access to the same resources as the government. This isn't Russia. In my opinion from the start the government should not be allowed access to anything citizens can't. Kind of like you should be able to have a beer even as a teenager. However, to suddenly change the rules (in both cases) would be disastrous. Suddenly giving citizens access to nukes or telling teenagers they can drink wouldn't be practical.
But the separation of rights to the government vs the citizens is the first step to disarming/slavery.

You're tickling a topic much deeper and wider than the 2A there. Suffice it to say, I'll continue to excercise all of my rights... including my vote. You won't see me voting for beer drinking teenagers or the right of my next door neighbor to have a nuclear weapon; but I will do my best to help ensure the prosperity of a Free and Self Governing nation.

Happy Birthday to the United States!
 
Call me a hopeless pollyanna, but I just can't buy into this paranoid talk of "defending ourselves against the federal government."


[...]

we're still here, and so is America.

Happy 236th Birthday, and many, many more to follow.

Tinpig

Like I said above, long before we could ever get to the point of defending ourselves with guns we would have lost freedom of assembly and speech. If we don't see that coming miles ahead of time then we're doomed anyway.

What we need to make sure we protect ourselves from our own government is our channels of communications and our ability to assemble in meaningful groups. Stalin was only successful because he could keep people apart. (No, as much as I might be a "right winger" I don't think there is anyone in Washington with Stalinesque plans for America.)

What we have to fear from Washington is stupidity and graft, not naked aggression.

But I do acknowledge that a real possibility exists that one day in the future the Washington morons could mismanage the country to the point that outside pressures could run us into a place like Colombia or Uruguay is today.

I probably won't live that long, but if I don't protect the rights now, there will be no rights left for my grandchildren.

MB
 
Call me a hopeless pollyanna, but I just can't buy into this paranoid talk of "defending ourselves against the federal government."

Certainly it's theoretically possible, but practically speaking, when I imagine us using our 2nd Amendent rights to defend our way of life against a tyrannical government, it is not the government of the United States that I see as the enemy, but some outside force.

For all its faults our government represents what the majority in this country has chosen, for better or for worse. Presidents and administrations come and go. We have the ability to get rid of them every four years at the ballot box.
Surely it's better to have the 2A right to form a militia to resist the government and not need to do so, than to lose the right and then at a future time find you need it? No one can predict the future. No one knows what the US government will look like in another 236 years time. I'm sure no citizens of any country whose government turned savagely against its own citizens ever really expected it to happen.

And just because the government is endorsed at the ballot box doesn't necessarily make its actions right. I'm sure numerous evil governments in other countries have managed to rustle up a majority at the ballot box. Hitler had overwhelming public support didn't he?
 
My thought on that statement also. There are many in the capital that want to see the general population more dependent on government services.
I think GW sums it up nicely
“A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government”

George Washington
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top