thread #20,340,549,019 re: Bear defense

brown bear defense, caliber?

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spacemanspiff

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in need of some help here.... someone on another board is saying that 30'06 and .308 are adequate for bear defense.

what do you think?

edit - one of my answers was that if necessary, a .308 in like the socom 16 would be kinda neat, obviously not thinking that one shot would be enough, but 20 shots on hand from a controllable semi-auto is kind of appealing to me.

then again, what do i know? i live in the city and almost never venture out into brown bear territory.
 
C'm on 'spiff, ya know there outta be options in there for 45/70, .454, 500 S&W, 10mm, etc., etc. ;)

I voted for 12 gauge primarily cuz that's what most of us rednecks would likely have around ...
 
I voted 12gauge, but it would be a good quality copper Barnes type slug for maximum penetration. I like the 870 configuration with a short 18.5" barrel, it'll point quickly and I shoot mine all the time with slugs.
 
From the point of view of penetration, I'd rather have a .308 or .30-'06 than a 12ga. shotgun (unless the latter was stoked with Rottweil Brenneke slugs, which penetrate far better than most of the US-designed Foster slugs). However, for optimum performance, in a bolt-gun I'd go with the .375 H&H as a minimum. In a lever-gun, I'm happy with a .45-70 carbine stoked with Garrett Hammerheads or the Buffalo Bore equivalent.
 
well, thats the thing....in this 'other' thread on another board (which shall remain nameless), it was actually started by someone asking whether or not their glock 22 was good to pack in case of brown bear attack.

as usual, theres teh anectdotal events where someone has used a small caliber handgun to fend off an attacking bear, but it hardly proves that they are the best tool to get the job done.

i figured all the other 'big bore' stuff would be under the 338, and 7 & 8 mag category.

even didnt think about the 4570 or the 500 mag in a lever gun.



okay, so an added twist to the argument, is that the one proposing both smaller caliber handguns and 30'06 and 308 as adequate bear defense, lives up here in alaska. so one would think that being exposed to the bear risks up here would foster a bit of common sense.
 
Well, the issue is a half-ton of adrenalin with teeth, heavy bones and a thick hide.

A main requirement, seems to me, is a projectile that will not only break a bone but continue onward for deep penetration. Things like trajectory are not at issue.

"Defense" means you have other things on your mind besides Mr. Bear, right? Viewing scenery, or fishing, or hanging out at your house doing chores or drinking a cool one. So, a relatively light and handy package as the weapon.

Art
 
North to Alaska.

I have never understood this obsession with = what caliber, what gun, whatever is enough for bear.

Do a search of this topic, and the corresponding results are a little overwhelming...

This not only applies to this site, but to every firearm related board i have seen. How many of us actually will EVER be in a situation that requires us to shoot a bear in defense of life and limb??? I seem to remember a member at TFL that had actually been mauled by a bear and had a site dedicated to this incident. But that has been about it as for reality situations.

I would look to professional bear hunting guides in Alaska & what their advice would be concerning this topic for a definitive answer. WildAlaska should be able to provide some insight on this matter????

12-34hom
 
I used to do some fishing guiding and outfitting in Southeast Alaska, and I know that the most common bear defense was 12ga 00 or 000 magnum buckshot alternating with slugs, along with .44's carried on the belt, in a shoulder holster or in the dry-bag.

For myself, I always wore a 4" 629 and carried a shotgun full of Brenneke's. Over many well lubricated late evening sessions with other experienced hands, the consensus always seemed to be that the shotgun was sufficient to "repel boarders" (i.e., shoot a bear and keep it from getting to you), while the .44 was carried more in the hopes that everybody else would have one, too. Follow me on this line of thought:

Brown Bears are horribly inefficient predators, and do not kill quickly or cleanly. Compare bear attacks with lion and leopard attacks, and you will see that people mauled by bears are usually able to survive the initial attack, if they are rescued within minutes or sometimes hours, whereas those attacked by cats are usually DRT in moments. If you are traveling in a group (common when fishing), then you will take comfort in the fact that almost everyone will have a .44 and will be able to drive off and kill the bear, eventually, even if they have to empty every revolver in the group. If you are traveling solo, however, or with a group that does not carry guns (newbies, paying clients, whatever), then you keep your 12ga close to hand at all times, because you will not have the luxury of rolling up in a ball and waiting for the hail of bullets to settle Mr. Bear's hash.

In several decades of travel to Southeast Alaska, I've never had to shoot a bear. I've sort of shot close to one a couple of times, just to get his attention and persuade him to pick a different hobby, but haven't been forced to kill one. When I'm fishing with friends, I take comfort in knowing that those in my group can shoot reasonably straight and that they carry sidearms I trust to be reliable and stoked with good ammo ('cause I clean everybody's guns, and I provide the ammo). In those circumstances, I'll leave the shotgun with the raft or driftboat hundreds of yards or even a mile or two away. When traveling solo, or with my better half (who doesn't shoot a heavy recoiling sidearm very well), I always carry my nickel plated coachgun loaded with two 3" brenneke's, and I'm never more than a couple of feet away from it.

Just my two cents worth. Your Mileage May Vary. Void where taxed or prohibited by law, and so forth.
 
Bear defending...I shoot shotguns best, gimmee the 12 ga and Slugs.

We actually have had bears come into the big City. The Yuppie folks called the LEO, - figured it was racoons getting into trash cans- so yeah they called 911. It wasn't a racoon. " That ain't a raccon - that is a BEAR! - whaddya call us for - call Game & Fish". :)

Had another one spotted about 1/2 mile from me at the intersection of two Freeways. Just looking at folks, eating the fries and stuff folks tossed his way.

I dunno - he seemed to be having a good time. Helluva lot more Interesting than someone dressed in some silly costume with a sign trying to get motorists to eat a Pizza, try the High-Bucks Coffee...or Jazzersize.

Bear was just minding his own business, checking out the scenery, not bothering anyone. He even waved at me. :)
 
I'd go with the 12 gauge slugs. They have excellent penetration based on what I've seen and I have absolute faith in my Remington 870.

brad cook
 
Buckshot??

Umm, folks ya gotta realize that a BUCK is a deer and buckshot was designed for thin skinned bambis!
Foster slugs regularly fail to penetrate brown bear shoulders in tests done by the feds and state game agencies...tooo soft!
 
woah-

do you mean to say that there is such thing as a .22lr minigun? or is it just made up? because a .22minigun would be...like...awesome.

i'm going to say .30-06.
~TMM
 
OK last time...

When you can hit a softball tossed by Hoyt Wihelm at 35mph with a pistol or a rifle, you are qualifed to use same for bear defense.

Until then, 12 gauge with buckshot for the average person. Lay out a wall of lead while yer kness quake and yer bowels let loose

When people advocate sumpin different, ask em how many t that have faced down a bear. I myself havent, but the advice I am giving is from someone who knows and has done it....

Me, I carr y a slow Spiff.....:)

Wildnext topicAlaska
 
Bear Defense

12-34 hom,

Many of the guides in Alaska who guide hunters in search of brown bear won't let a hunter bring anything less than a .338 into camp, and are much happier if the hunter has a .375 or .416 and can shoot it.

As for defense, the guides I've hunted with bring a .416 Rigby for bear (I was hunting moose and caribou, but asked the guides i used what they do for brown bear).

The northern grizzlies are a little smaller, but the coastal browns are huge creatures, and if you brought a .308 or .30-06 with you in that area, not sure you'd have any company when you left camp.

Michael
 
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