To 'BOB' or not to 'BOB", that is the question.

[Jim PHL]

Buying an M37. The hammer has been bobbed but the seller has offered to have an original re-installed. For those of you that pocket carry, how 'in the way' is a standard hammer? This gun will mainly be for pocket carry but I really like the look of the regular hammer and like the option of a s/a shot. I'd actually prefer something like a "half-bob" job. (Does that sound dirty?) It looks like the way it is bobbed now I'd have to partially pull the trigger to get the hammer started rearward so I could get my thumb on it and pull it the rest of the way back. A half-bob job would leave just enough to be able to get my thumb on it without pulling the trigger, but still have a good chunk of it trimmed off to minimize hang-ups on the draw. Anyone have pix of such a thing?

 

[happy old sailor]

Jim, i think you answered your own questions very well. if i have reason to pocket carry, i keep my thumb on the hammer, not to SA, but to keep it from hanging up on the draw. IMO, if you SA a revolver, you are wasting a maybe precious moment. for hunting and target, and plinking, where i want accuracy. i SA. for protection i practice DA. when the gun clears the pocket, i slide the thumd down to my middle finger and rip away. bottom line, do what is comfortable for you.

 

[Dienekes]

I dehorned my wife's M37 many years ago. She carries it in a fanny pack but the lack of a hammer spur makes it very slick in and out of anything including an ankle holster, pocket, you name it. It's actually a neater package than the Centennial "hammerless". With care it can be cocked for SA but you had better intend to fire it to lower the hammer. I have never lowered the hammer on a live round. I *might* be able to do it with extreme care but would rather not try it.

This is not a real world disadvantage as the gun's purpose is practical DA anyway. Nothing my wife has ever shot at with it complained about any lack of accuracy.

 

[carebear]

Like the happy old sailor I put my thumb on the spur to form a "poor man's hammerless" when I draw.

I will often cock it on the way up though, but that's just me.

 

[BluesBear]

Read this thread.

A scenario like this is the reason I prefer SA capabilities on all of my firearms.
And why, even though I might bob a hammer, I will NEVER remove the SA capability of ANY firearm Iown.

Now I know it will probably never happen, but then most of us will probably never need our CCW anyway.

 

[Jim PHL]

Blues Bear, actually that is kind of my thinking as well, since this will be a self defense/carry gun. A variation on the scenario would be an assailant further away, even without a hostage in front of him, such as someone holding a group of hostages in a store, restaurant, etc. You may be able to get a hit somehwhere on his torso from across the room with a DA shot, but you may be able to achieve a heart/lung shot if you have SA capability. This particular gun has not been converted to DAO, just the hammer job.

Dienekes, when you say your wife's gun is "de-horned", do you mean just the hammer job, or are there other modifications? Got pix?

 

[concerned citizen]

bob'd Hammer

If this piece is intended soley for pocketcarry, I definaly say leave it bob'd..It can still be cocked for a S/A shot if nessesary.

If you were going to ankle or IWB/OWB carry it leaving the hammer would not be such a bad thing, but I personally would still have it bob'd or use a hammer shroud.

My point for IWB/OWB or ankle with a hammer is there is more room to grasp the piece for draw and you can comforty modify your grip to cover the hammer with your thumb, your front pocket is a small space and if you have to bring it into action quick the most important thing is getting a firm solid grip and ripping it out of your pocket, to put your thumb over the hammer will work but your working with a much smaller space. The last thing you need is for it to get hung up on the outside of your pocket ...

Everyone will have a differnet opinion on this, but this is my opinon and just some thing to think about.

Either way, I bet you'll be happy with your purchase..

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
---------------------------
Like the happy old sailor I put my thumb on the spur to form a "poor man's hammerless" when I draw.

I will often cock it on the way up though, but that's just me.
--------------------------

Same here. You lose no time at all in a cock-on-drawing action. The only objection might be if you don't intend to shoot as soon as the sights come on -- then a cocked pistol and a high dose of adrenaline might result in a problem.

 

[carebear]

Yep, it's completely situational. Immediate use, I'm cocking it. Everything else I own is a single action, that's the trigger pull I usually train on.

If it is a "maybe" situation, I'll leave the hammer down, if it comes to an "aiming in" point, I can again cock it or not if need be.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
----------------------------------
Yep, it's completely situational. Immediate use, I'm cocking it. Everything else I own is a single action, that's the trigger pull I usually train on.

If it is a "maybe" situation, I'll leave the hammer down, if it comes to an "aiming in" point, I can again cock it or not if need be.
__________________

You make a good point -- leave the hammer alone, and you can choose to cock or not, depending on the situation.

Now someone said you can cock a bobbed hammer. Well, yeees. But under stress?

 

[Dienekes]

Jim PHL: No photos. I am lucky just to get online and off again, much less do anything fancier...

When I "dehorned" the hammer I removed all of the spur and polished the back of he hammer. Also removed the trigger serrations and altered the trigger to a narrow, smooth contour for DA, and cut the rebound slightly. The DA is very good and conducive to good accuracy with practice.

In spite of the rationalizations for a SA capability, I remain unconvinced. Even though a 2" gun is surprisingly accurate, the odds of being able to deliver an accurate SA shot way out there is somewhat low. Also a bit harder to justify in a civilian self defense scenario. Cocking a DA gun for an SA pull in a stressful situation is liable to lead to an inadvertent discharge in a number of ways--which is why a number of PDs modified DA revovers to DAO after experiences of that sort.

Covering the hammer with a thumb on the way out may work--but it also makes for a clumsier draw, again under stress.

All of which is just elaborating on Murphy's Law.

 

[carebear]

Part of the reason for covering the hammer is to avoid the monkey in the coconut problem of trying to fit my thumb between my leg and the gun while simultaneously getting my fingers around the grip to hook the gun out.

My pants pocket openings aren't big enough to get a full firing grip inside the pocket and still get the gun out, the thumb gives me leverage against the grip of my fingers on the frontstrap for a controlled draw.

The thumb can then either cock the hammer and/or just slip down ala 1911 safety sweep as the gun clears the pocket and begins to rotate.

As far as justification goes, if I can demonstrate it did not require any appreciable additional time to cock the piece than to just fire DA (and the shoot itself is good) there is no problem.

Heck, if it is a beyond 15 foot or so shot, the fact I attempted to make the "safer" shot for all and sundry downrange and, in a way, attempted to minimize the amount of force ultimately necessary by being able to shoot that much more accurately, it could only look good.

The key is to be able to articulate why you did what you did, that takes care of "appearances", if the shoot is good, it is good regardless of the technique or weapon used.

 

[Ankeny]

I haven't shot a Smith and Wesson revolver single action for 30 years. Shooting double action in no way impairs accuracy. In fact, in my PPC days, I never met a Master who shot SA at the 50 yard line. Maybe bob the hammer and spend more time learning how to shoot DA?

 

[Tacoma]

I'm also a fan of bobbed with SA feature left in. I'd vote to buy the gun as is but have him ship the origional hammer with it. It's not hard to switch back if you decide.

 

[Mannlicher]

Back when I did a bit of metallic silhouette competition, I shot SA, but I have always shot DA when carrying a revolver for defense.
I have two bobbed, Double Action Only Smith&Wessons, a Model 65 and a Model 60, both with 3 inch heavy barrels.

 

[BluesBear]

I was never asked nor have I ever known of anyone being asked whether or not they cocked their revolver before justifiably shooting anyone.

 

[Jim PHL]

Dienekes-good point regarding potential DA accuracy. Well taken. And the hammer job on 'mine' is similar to what you did to your wife's. I don't like to get too into scenarios (I know, I started it in this case) but my point is not shooting a bad guy in the eye while he's standing behind a hostage at 15 yards...more like a center-mass shot vs. a somewhere on the torso shot at such a distance.

Tacoma-I also like the bobbed profile with SA capability. As stated the SA option still mechanically exists but not enough of the hammer remains to be able to cock the hammer without pulling the trigger slightly to start it, which is awkward under stress. Also, as Dienekes mentioned earlier, not enough hammer left to safely lower it without firing the round it's cocked on.

I'm also in the air as far as looks, too. (I know, not a primary concern) I like the original hammer with the original skinny wood grips and I like the bobbed look with an uncle mike's boot grip. The latter may be more "practical" even dare I say "tactical", but cool factor counts, too. I can buy either grip for the same cost so that's not a factor.

I appreciate everyone's opinion. Just for your reference I AM getting the gun, I'm just deciding how I want it set up.

Thanks.

 

[KurtC]

Anyone who would consider cocking a revolver in a defensive situation has obviously never had any formal (documented) training in defensive handgunning.

Those who think they are going to save the day by drawing and cocking their snub nose .38 are in need of a reality check.

Try this at the range:

Take a brick and tie a 3' string to it. Tie a long, weak spring to the end of the string. Take 2 helium filled balloons (one red, one orange) and fasten them to the spring with a couple of 6" strings. Now put the the hole assembly down range and let it bob in the wind.

When you hear the whistle, you have 3 seconds to draw your concealed revolver, cock it, and shoot only the red balloon. If you miss altogether, you lose. If you hit the orange balloon, you lose. You only get one shot.

Now for the wager. You are betting everthing you have. Your home, car, job, savings, friends and family. Everything rides on the outcome of that one single shot.

Bottom line: Any situation in which a hostage is in close contact with the suspect needs to be left to those trained in such matters. If the suspect begins to actually harm the hostage, then react accordingly. Always use your brains before your bullets.

And never, ever use a 2-3 trigger pull (cocked revolver) in a defensive situation. You will last only about 5 minutes in court, and lose everything dear to you.

 

[Jim PHL]

Well put, Kurt, and the reason I usually try to stay away from bringing "scenarios" into these discussions. I feel (and hope I always feel this way) that I am always going to be more likely to draw my gun from a pocket and fire it either single action or double action, at a balloon than at a hostage taker. That said, which is better, bobbed or unbobbed?

 

[g56]

I haven't shot a Smith and Wesson revolver single action for 30 years. Shooting double action in no way impairs accuracy. In fact, in my PPC days, I never met a Master who shot SA at the 50 yard line. Maybe bob the hammer and spend more time learning how to shoot DA?

I agree 100% If you want to learn to shoot defensively, you need to learn to shoot double action, with practice DA is as accurate as single action and it is MUCH safer! A hammer spur has no place on a pocket pistol, when the situation demands a quick draw...it will hang up, no question about it.

Single action in a defensive situation is an accident about to happen.

I am an NRA classified Police Pistol Combat Master, and I've never seen a decent shooter in PPC use single action and be competitive in PPC.

 

[KurtC]

A bobbed hammer has the obvious advantage of a snag-free draw, and I highly recommend it for any concealable revolver, be it DAO or DA/SA. If carried in a coat pocket, it also makes it easier for a last ditch shoot-thru-the clothes shot, should you be on the ground with the assailant on top of you.

The advantage of a hammer spur on any DA revolver is when the gun becomes extremely dirty or jammed and the you cannot pull the trigger. Pulling back on the spur to turn the cylinder is much easier than pulling the trigger.
Fortunately, this situation is rare.

All that taken into consideration, I am a firm believer in a bobbed hammer DAO version of any purely defensive revolver. But I live and work in New Jersey, which has the Lawyer as our state animal.

If your revolver has collector value, have any such conversions done by the factory. My 3" SP101 in 9mm has the factory DAO hammer, because it is rare. If it were a .357 (more common) than I would have a competent smith do a conversion.

My other carry revolver is a S&W 625 with 4" barrel. It has a spur and is DA/SA. It also gets used for range and field work. When I had the 3" version, it was bobbed and DAO, since it only got carried concealed.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
------------------------------
Single action in a defensive situation is an accident about to happen.
------------------------------

If you don't intend to shoot, yes.

Of course, my carry gun is an M1911A1 (a Kimber) -- that's always single action, and with training such a weapon is as safe as a revolver.

 

[Old Fuff]

Any snubbie I carry in deep cover under clothing has a shrouded, concealed or bobbed hammer. I also remove the single action feature. I know of three unintentional discharges when someone tried to lower a bobbed hammer on a loaded chamber and didn't do it right. (Boy did the Chief have something to say concerning one of those ...)

Another point not always considered ... the checkering on post-war S&W hammers is very sharp, and will wear a hole through a coat lining or a pocket in short order if the spur isn't covered by the holster.

The trouble with today's shooters is that very few are left that know how to shoot a revolver double action. Those that do, including this writer, can make serious head shots up to 25 yards. I doubt that I will ever be required to do this, but I think the ability to shoot is a better solution then asking for trouble while trying to lower a bobbed hammer.

Yes, you can hold your thumb to cover the spur while drawing, but I prefer the get the correct grip in the first place. If you "miss your grip" the first and even fast succeeding shots may go anywhere but where you want. Correcting the grip may take time you haven't got.

 

[carebear]

:banghead:

my carry gun is an M1911A1 (a Kimber) -- that's always single action

...and mine, astonishingly, has a trigger in the 4 lb. range. The only thing keeping me from touching off rounds willy-nilly once aimed in (ie off safe and on a target I am willing to destroy, sound familiar?) it the same thing that keeps me from accidentally potting the wrong ballons at the range.

That would of course be my

formal (documented) training in defensive handgunning.

Single action is a choice, nothing more nothing less.

Old Fuff,

Never missed the lowering yet, and when I do lower, without shooting, it is at a safe backstop, so little possibility of anything but embarassment. And as I said, there are pants I cannot get a full grip on the gun in, the method I use works, because I practice it.

And, all and sundry, preferring to shoot single action for a precise first shot does not necessarily mean one cannot shoot double action.

 

[Old Fuff]

carebear:

As you said ... "Never missed the lowering yet," and neither had the individuals I mentioned until ....

I always keep in mind that I have no way of knowing what kind of experience or background those who follow these threads have. Some of course are very experienced (and you might be an example) while others are "all thumbs," and in such cases a bobbed hammer with the single-action intact could be an invite to a serious problem. I think Blues Bear knows what he's doing, but some of those who follow his advice may not.

I also shoot a Government Model or Commander Colt in the single-action mode, as there is no other - and that is one advantage of the piece. But the draw is made while the safety lock (manual safety) is still "on" and an unintentional shot is unlikely.

I (usually) carry the revolver in a different context - as a compact pocket gun. As I am not a law enforcement officer I suspect that if I need it what happens will be close, fast and dirty when a mugger sees the Old Fuff as an easy target. In this environment I'm sure the double-action mode will do fine, and the hammer spur will not impede my draw because it won't be there.

But this is what I find to be best, and having learned the fundamentals of D.A. shooting from Bill Jordan I am quite comfortable with it. Others of course have different views, and hopefully they will all be presented for consideration. That after all, is what this forum is for.