Tom Givens article : When Citizens Fight Are We Training Wrong

[Hangingrock]

Tom Givens article : When Citizens Fight Back Are We Training Wrong Sept/Oct 2014 American Handgunner.

"Generally what works in a military battle overseas, or what works for police offers stateside - won't work for Sam and Suzi Homemaker"

Interesting article.

 

[Bobson]

I was expecting a link. I need to go buy something to read it? Bah.

 

[Frosty Dave]

Possible link sighting

Maybe he is talking about this article, which didn't cost me any money...

http://americanhandgunner.com/when-citizens-fight-back/

 

[Kleanbore]

Excellent Article

Worth reading and thinking about.

 

[skoro]

A very good article that brings out some points for serious consideration for a guy like me, who got plenty of handgun training in the military, but not so much in the years since.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Good read. I found this particularly interesting:

These were ordinary citizens, mostly white-collar and professionals, and only about seven percent “blue-collar” workers. The majority of our students are in sales, management, IT work, the medical field or other professional activity.

Now, we don't know the specific make up of all the thousands of students he's ever taught, but I do believe it speaks to the process of the criminal interview. If you appear to have more money and as less likely to fight back from your physical presence (white collar, generally speaking, tends to mean dressed in nicer, more expensive clothing, driving a nicer car, and most likely not in the same kind of physical shape as blue collar folks), you are more likely to be victimized by common thugs seeking material or monetary gains.

Criminals are like any animal predator; they're going to select what seems the best balance of easy target and good bounty from the group. Carry yourself accordingly.

 

[Kleanbore]

While the Data Sample is Small...

...we don't have much in the way of other relevant information.

The shooting distances are interesting:

Only two of my students’ shootings occurred at contact distance. In one of those cases the physical contact was purely accidental. In the other case physical contact was intentional, but the victim missed a large number of cues before he was struck with a club.
At the other end of the spectrum we have had three students who have had to engage at 15, 17 and 22 yards. The other 92 percent of our student-involved incidents took place at a distance of 3 to 7 yards, with the majority occurring between 3 and 5 yards. The rule of thumb then is most civilian shootings occur within the length of a car.

Now, just about everyone here knows that some thirty-one years ago, Dennis Tueller showed that a knife-wielding assailant can cover a distance of twenty one feet in about a second and a half, which is about the time it takes to draw a firearm and shoot.

Obviously, the actual shooting distance in such an encounter would be very short indeed--nominally zero feet, in fact, for someone who has covered twenty one feet, plus whatever distance might be created by the defender as he or she side-steps the onrushing attacker.

I find it almost amusing that when I go to the range, almost everyone seems to be shooting at targets seven yards away--the starting distance for the Tueller Drill. But it stands to reason that in many, if not most, real encounters, the actual shooting distances may well be much closer, as borne out by Tom Givens' observations.

Some people are under the impression that shooting skills are readily transferable from longer to shorter distances. Consider, however, that the defensive reaction comprises more than shooting. It involves observation, reaction, recognition, and response, all in a split second.

That leads me to conclude that a lot of fast shooting on targets three to five yards distant would be better than firing at seven yard targets all the time.

 

[MachIVshooter]

That leads me to conclude that a lot of fast shooting on targets three to five yards distant would be better than firing at seven yard targets all the time.

Agreed. And even drawing and firing at contact distance.

Some of the drills we do involve multiple threat scenarios, and the first threat is at arms length, to be shot from the retention position with the weak hand up (defending incoming blows, deflecting a weapon, etc.).

............. I did give everyone a good laugh once when the buzzer went and, instead of drawing the firearm and shooting, I pulled my Kershaw folder and decapitated the contact target. I might add that my time with the knife was actually faster than anyone else's draw & fire times. lol. Although taking out the other threats meant dropping the knife and drawing the gun, which did cost me almost a second.

 

[henschman]

Good point -- as armed citizens with 2A purposes in mind, we actually have a lot more to learn from the insurgents that are resisting the military and indigenous police overseas than we do from our own military and police.

 

[RustyShackelford]

article, sworn LE.....

I read the article & it's good, but honestly it's not ground-breaking or some huge advance in gun training/tactics.
It's true that sworn US law enforcement officers encounter lethal force events a lot differently than armed citizens or CC license holders but that isn't new or revolutionary.
I think what is important in 2014, is for law enforcement to avoid or at least consider the distinct issues between a concealed carry license holder/armed citizen & the duties/training/legal aspects of a sworn LE officer(trooper, deputy, special agent, etc).
Many criminal investigators & police officers respond to a call(scene) then assume the citizen-license holder is beholden to the same standards/SOPs/regulations they are.
This is not the case.
A few years ago, I saw a homicide detective being interviewed by a media reporter about a home owner/home invasion shooting. A armed citizen shot a crook that gained entry into the dwelling & was aggressive.
The police detective said; "in our agency, the training standards say...." . The home owner/gun owner is not in the same police agency & is not subject to the same training standards or policy.

The same "mindset" can carry over to some private gun-tactics cadre or training
staffs too. I had a older gent do my security re-qual a few years ago who admonished me for going slow. You have to go fast, get it reloaded like you would on the street. Was he right in theory? Yes. But it was a simple mandated re-qual based on a score shooting at a paper target.
It's not SWAT or BUD/S or HRT(Hostage Rescue Team) selection.

Permit holders, gun owners & armed professionals(security, PIs, EP specialists, PSCs) need to learn & know the lethal force laws of their area. They are not the same as sworn LE officers & are held to a different standard.

 

[Blue Thunder]

I attended Tom's Polite Society Pistol Match and Conference in Memphis Tn., with 25 of the best Trainers in the country in March 2013. It was 3 days of all you could attend and then do a Surprise Match Course in the range. I had the opportunity to have lunch with John Farnam during the sessions and picked his brain after he said "Do you mind if I set here"?, and I said only if I can pick your brain while you eat. We had a really great 30 minute lunch in front of 4 other participants who did not ask anything. I did beat John on the surprise match!

 

[btg3]

Good read. I found this particularly interesting:

Quote:
These were ordinary citizens, mostly white-collar and professionals, and only about seven percent “blue-collar” workers. The majority of our students are in sales, management, IT work, the medical field or other professional activity.

Now, we don't know the specific make up of all the thousands of students he's ever taught, but I do believe it speaks to the process of the criminal interview. If you appear to have more money and as less likely to fight back from your physical presence (white collar, generally speaking, tends to mean dressed in nicer, more expensive clothing, driving a nicer car, and most likely not in the same kind of physical shape as blue collar folks), you are more likely to be victimized by common thugs seeking material or monetary gains.

Criminals are like any animal predator; they're going to select what seems the best balance of easy target and good bounty from the group. Carry yourself accordingly.

It might be argued that unless you "are in sales, management, IT work, the medical field or other professional activity", you may not have the disposable income to purchase this training.

The article is a marketing tool. Even so, good reading.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...It might be argued that unless you "are in sales, management, IT work, the medical field or other professional activity", you may not have the disposable income to purchase this training....

Phooey! It's more likely that those sorts get training because going to school and getting an education are parts of their core value system and lifestyle. That's how they got the careers they have.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Impressive article. Notice he said most of his students who used guns in defense (64 of them) did use two hands when it came to shooting.

Interesting that he said engagement distances were about car length. Bit longer than average.

I've seen alot of point shooting press where they say you will default to one handed shooting. Well I guess if you do attend classes and do practice two handed shooting, you will tend to default to two handed shooting (yea yea, wither you will 'see' your sights is another matter.)

Notice Tom said, " All but two of our students brought the gun to eye level, and as a result got good hits. Two had to shoot from below eye level due to unusual circumstances."

Now he still didn't say they 'saw' their sights but you can see they got a good index on the attacker by using two hands and going to eye level.

Excellent article!

Deaf

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Yes, a very good article. I've often read too that in gunfights people generally default to one handed shooting but it seems that training overrides this. That makes sense...what you train is probably what you'll do.

 

[huntsman]

I read the article & it's good, but honestly it's not ground-breaking or some huge advance in gun training/tactics.

it wasn't an in depth piece so it's hard to tell but it seems to me every peddler with a class to fill tell you theirs is the True path

It's true that sworn US law enforcement officers encounter lethal force events a lot differently than armed citizens or CC license holders but that isn't new or revolutionary.

Well then one could argue that equipment, tactics and training should be tailored to that different situation No?

Is it the responsibility of a teacher to dictate the path or to help guide the student on the path He's chosen? IMHO in the popularity of pocket guns the public is choosing their path so if we want to see something new and revolutionary in training it should be classes tailored specifically to this style gun, assuming of course that a student has the right to chose his own path.

 

[AOK]

Nice article. I was hoping to see some discussion on moving. Does his students just stand and deliver like a square range?

"Some effort expended on the contact distance problem, including empty hand skills and weapon retention skills. However, these are secondary skills for the private citizen."

Disagree with this. We see far more h2h fights amongst citizens than we do fights which involve handguns. While it may be popular on gun forums (and Mr. Givens bottom line) to believe handguns are primary, not true IMHO.

 

[Al Thompson]

Now he still didn't say they 'saw' their sights but you can see they got a good index on the attacker by using two hands and going to eye level.

One thing Tom mentions in class often, is to see as much of your sights as you need. Obviously if the bad guy is close you need only gross sight alignment, the further away (or BG behind cover), the more sight alignment required.

may not have the disposable income to purchase this training.

I'm seeing more and more regular folks getting the training bug and participating around here. Ten years ago, nobody trained more than just the 8 hour CWP class, now local classes are sold out PDQ.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Motor vehicles....

About 4/5 years ago, I read a LE industry article that said approx 90% of a state agency's member of service shootings(lethal force) were in or near motor vehicles. This was based on a 12mo period(I think it was KY but I'm not sure).
I also saw an item in the early 2000s that a in depth study by the LAPD showed the officer involved lethal force events averaged 28ft.
Can private citizens learn anything from these LE shooting incidents?
Sure.
But I feel the basic or entry level CCW shooter should be able to deal with a threat in a situation that they may encounter. 0-10 feet.
I often train(shoot) at CQB(close quarter battle) ranges when I can. Targets set up 1-2 feet away or 10ft or so. Knowing where your rounds hit or how your aim is under these conditions is important.
Learning to shoot from odd angles or with the weak hand(wounded drills) are good too, but new shooters should learn the basics first.

 

[Old Dog]

btg3 posted

...It might be argued that unless you "are in sales, management, IT work, the medical field or other professional activity", you may not have the disposable income to purchase this training....

I would absolutely tend to agree -- if we're talking about going to a high-profile, weeklong, nationally-known course out of state, especially. Of the guys I grew up with, those who went to work in the auto plants, mines and driving trucks have neither the extra money nor can they obtain the considerable time off required to do anything more than an inexpensive local weekend class at the gun club ...

Then Frank Ettin posted

Phooey! It's more likely that those sorts get training because going to school and getting an education are parts of their core value system and lifestyle. That's how they got the careers they have.

Ah, really? Not based on what I see around here. I've encountered plenty of very well-off, well-educated Microsoft employees who remain mere dilettantes as far as their firearms involvement goes, yet have seen a number of much lower-paid retail store stockers and construction workers who've strived mightily to scrape up the wherewithal to attend quality training.

I thought we didn't deal in stereo-typing and generalizations here at THR ... If one desires training (and we've sorely beaten this dead horse more than a few times here), one will sacrifice to obtain training ... but many won't be able to take nine days away from work, fly cross-country to Memphis or South Carolina, spending a few thousand dollars for airfare, lodging, food, ammo and the big hit, the course fee. Almost as though Frank Ettin is trying to point out that there IS a class divide and a gun-culture "elitist" group ...

 

[BullfrogKen]

Nonsense.


The resort-based training model is so 80's. To get training back then you had to go away to a school to get it. They were very few itinerant (traveling) trainers.

John Farnam was among the first to come to you to offer classes, be it your club or your piece of land suitable to host such an event.


The cost of that kind of class is a weekend - not 9 days away from work - and tution in today's prices typically runs around $150-250/day, depending on the trainer, type of class, and number of students.


For the price of a quality handgun one can take a two day class and get quality training. I understand for some families even a quality handgun is expensive. But I see a whole lot of gun owners who own many quality handguns and have never taken a class - of any type. Not even a $50-100 NRA basic class.

It's not about the money. Its not about having to fly cross country for a week.


Its a choice, and most gun owners chose not to get any training.

Why? Mostly I think its ego. But it sure ain't any of the things you just said, Old Dog, because that isn't reality.

 

[Old Dog]

But it sure ain't any of the things you just said, Old Dog, because that isn't reality.

Apparently, Ken, you are privileged to live in a region with a multitude of choices. Yeah, there are traveling trainers. Let's take Ayoob, for example. He's doing MAG 40/80 here at FAS down the interstate. I need to get three days off work to combine with my weekend and then pay for the ammo and the $800 course fee, plus food and lodging. Now, I can afford this. But a lot of folks I work with (in law enforcement yet), particularly those with families and a tight budget, simply can't.

It's not ego. I guess your reality is different than my reality. C'est la vie. Thanks, for the diss, though.

 

[BullfrogKen]

BTW Tom Givens has been out to my club probably two dozen times over the past couple decades, traveled all the way from Memphis to south cental PA to teach his classes. He's gone out to Washington state, too. I've traveled to northen VA to take one he went there to teach.

You're not limited to local unknowns to take classes from. Many quality trainers will take their show on the road if you arrange to host it. The industry realizes that's the only real way to have a successful training business.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Old Dog: I thought we didn't deal in stereo-typing and generalizations here at THR ...

Tom made a very simple observation, without "stereotyping."

Almost as though Frank Ettin is trying to point out that there IS a class divide and a gun-culture "elitist" group ...

I didn't take it that way at all. As I took it, a majority of the students being in sales, management, IT work, the medical field or other professional activity might be explained by the fact that those professions require formal training, and that people in them may be more predisposed to avail themselves of formal training than those in some professions that do not involve formal training.

One might expect professional electricians, hazmat specialists, paramedics, vector control persons, horticulturalists, and a number of others to fall into the same category.

Do you have a theory that better explains the stats?

I don't know where the idea of a "gun culture elitist group" would come from.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Old Dog: Yeah, there are traveling trainers. Let's take Ayoob, for example. He's doing MAG 40/80 here at FAS down the interstate. I need to get three days off work to combine with my weekend and then pay for the ammo and the $800 course fee, plus food and lodging. Now, I can afford this. But a lot of folks I work with (in law enforcement yet), particularly those with families and a tight budget, simply can't.

It's not ego. I guess your reality is different than my reality. C'est la vie. Thanks, for the diss, though.

Tom's class in Eustace, Texas on Sept 6 will be given on a Saturday; it is a one day course. Tuition is $225. Students are each required to supple 400 rounds of ammunition.

Eustace is within easy driving distance of the Dallas-Ft. Worth area and is not very far from Austin or Houston.