Too much redundancy?

[zdc1775]

So I'm having a serious first world problem here and would like your help making a decision.

I am currently considering building out one of my remaining AR lowers as a 18-20" 6mm ARC to use as a target/hunting rifle. This seems like a great idea to me as I prefer the ergonomics of the AR-15 over those of traditional bolt rifles and having a semi auto that would allow me to take deer out to 400 yards and shoot paper and steel at 600+ yards with reduced recoil as compared to my other rifles capable of doing that seems like a great thing.

But I also want to either buy or build a new precision bolt rifle for target shooting and possibly even using it for PRS. For that I came to the conclusion that 6mm Creedmoor made the most sense for me since I wanted to at least be able to order factory ammo for when I don't feel like loading my own.

So that has led me to a dilemma. Since these two calibers have such similar ballistics they have started to seem redundant to me and now I can't decide if I should just do one of them and use it for both roles or get both like I was originally thinking.

In either case, I will mostly be loading ammo for them, though having good quality factory ammo available is a must, and since I don't currently have any other 6mm chambering at least that part isn't redundant.

So what does the collective say?

 

[Legionnaire]

I voted both, but were I cost sensitive, I’d start with the 6 ARC and add the Creedmoor when I felt the ARC was holding me back.

 

[illinoisburt]

For an AR I think you may be better suited with a 6.5 Grendel. There is very little ballistics difference within 400 yards between it and the 6 ARC, while having better current availability factory ammunition especially heavier hunting bullets.

 

[zdc1775]

I voted both, but were I cost sensitive, I’d start with the 6 ARC and add the Creedmoor when I felt the ARC was holding me back.

That was basically my original thought but now I think I've worked myself up about how similar the performance is that I would just end up neglecting one or even both of them completely until I just end up selling them, and I actually do have a track record of doing that in the past.

 

[zdc1775]

For an AR I think you may be better suited with a 6.5 Grendel. There is very little ballistics difference within 400 yards between it and the 6 ARC, while having better current availability factory ammunition especially heavier hunting bullets.

Thought about that but decided against 6.5 grendel due it's lack of ability to shoot the better performing 140 grain class of bullets efficiently and since it only really works well with bullets in the 120 grain range basically gains me nothing but increased recoil and slightly cheaper factory ammo over the 6 ARC.

 

[zdc1775]

Oh and I guess I should point out, since the hunting portion has already been mentioned, that my go-to deer hunting rifle is currently a 18" AR in 223 Wyle unless I am hunting one of the two fields that give me the possibility of shots out past 250 yards and then I grab either the 308 or 30-06 depending on my mood. So 6 ARC is more than enough gun for my purposes out to 400 ish yards.

 

[rayatphonix]

I think the ARC and 6 CM are apples and oranges. If you compare speeds for. 95 grain hunting bullets the CM has about a 400fps advantage. If you’re using a 6 ARC bolt action gun it’s closer, but there’s still a significant difference. Whether or not the additional energy is required depends on many factors.

 

[Scout21]

Since you like the AR platform, have you considered going with an AR-10 chambered in 6MM Creedmoor and using it for everything? I've been told that with enough care you can get an AR nearly as accurate as a bolt gun.

 

[Glockpride]

If you’re wanting to go to 140gr class, perhaps looking at the 6.5CM might be the better option.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Oh and I guess I should point out, since the hunting portion has already been mentioned, that my go-to deer hunting rifle is currently a 18" AR in 223 Wyle unless I am hunting one of the two fields that give me the possibility of shots out past 250 yards and then I grab either the 308 or 30-06 depending on my mood. So 6 ARC is more than enough gun for my purposes out to 400 ish yards.

Is an AR-10 an option? They are heavy. But one in 6 cm would cover your bases on hunting and target shooting.
To me those cartridges are very different in usage. The 6 ARC would be good for extending you hunting range by a decent amount. While staying in a light platform.
I'm for 1 cartridge and one dope chart. But that's me.

 

[zdc1775]

I think the ARC and 6 CM are apples and oranges. If you compare speeds for. 95 grain hunting bullets the CM has about a 400fps advantage. If you’re using a 6 ARC bolt action gun it’s closer, but there’s still a significant difference. Whether or not the additional energy is required depends on many factors.

I was only seeing about 200 fps difference looking at load data but I might have been looking at bolt gun data vs gas gun. Going to have to dig into that.

 

[zdc1775]

Since you like the AR platform, have you considered going with an AR-10 chambered in 6MM Creedmoor and using it for everything? I've been told that with enough care you can get an AR nearly as accurate as a bolt gun.

Is an AR-10 an option? They are heavy. But one in 6 cm would cover your bases on hunting and target shooting.
To me those cartridges are very different in usage. The 6 ARC would be good for extending you hunting range by a decent amount. While staying in a light platform.
I'm for 1 cartridge and one dope chart. But that's me.

An AR-10 is an option but I have several, ie too d*** many, AR-15 lowers laying around that I could use to justify it.

And I am also leaning toward the one cartridge route. The only reason I am debating it is the question of then what would I do with that lower? Like I said in the beginning this is a serious first world problem.

Regardless of whether or not I do one or both rifles, any new bolt rifle I buy or build will be able to accept a chassis that allows me to have an AR style grip and adjustable buttstock. Right now for a bolt rifle I am leaning to either a Savage 110 or Ruger American action in an MDT oryx chassis.

 

[zdc1775]

If you’re wanting to go to 140gr class, perhaps looking at the 6.5CM might be the better option.

Been there, done that. 6.5's are actually what I was talking about when I said I had a track record of buying too many guns in similar enough calibers that I eventually got tired/bored and sold them all. At one point I had a 6.5x47L, 6.5CM, .260 RemAI, 6.5x55, 6.5x284, and a 6.5-06 all at the same time. They were all extremely accurate guns and shot the same 140 class bullets at between 2700 and 3000 FPS, hence why I eventually got tired of loading for them and basically forgot about them until I sold them all. The only one I regret letting go now is the CZ550 in 6.5x55.

 

[Varminterror]

Do not buy/build an AR for PRS use. It’s a train wreck. So if you want an AR for general purpose use, get the AR in 6 creed or 6 GT for a large frame, or 6 ARC for a small frame, but then get a bolt action rifle in 6 Creed or 6 GT for PRS use. Obviously, 6 creed doesn’t fit into AR-15’s.

6 ARC and 6 creed will be very different in gas guns. AR-15’s can’t take the pressure (bolt thrust) so they’re limited to the 2700fps ballpark with the 108/110 class bullets. AR-10’s/LFAR’s in 6 creed, on the other hand, will achieve 3100fps with these bullets. That increase in speed really makes targets bigger down range. The gap closes a little in bolt guns, with the ARC reaching up to around 2900fps, but again, the Creed will run around 3100-3200 without pushing too hard on pressure.

Visually, we can see the difference between these two. The Creed is a much larger case and gains considerable performance over the ARC.


I have rifles in 6 Dasher, 6 Grendel, 6 ARC, 243win, and 6 Creed. Some use less powder and some have better barrel life than others, and some make targets bigger downrange compared to the others. I like chocolate chip cookies and double chocolate chip, and also like chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream… not all the same, not completely different, but always all good.

 

[Legionnaire]

Can’t add much to @Varminterror’s post; good stuff. Since you want to build on an AR lower you already possess, I still think your path is to start with the 6 ARC.

 

[Varminterror]

Since you want to build on an AR lower you already possess, I still think your path is to start with the 6 ARC.

By extension, and quaking a concession to my advice above:

If you own the lower and really want to build a 6 ARC, build a 6 ARC, and then bring it to a PRS match. It’ll be tough, and you’ll likely cuss a lot more than the guys around you running stick shifts, but you can see the game and put your fingers on a lot of other rifles and talk to a lot of other shooters to get the good, bad, and ugly on different match rifles and gear. THEN you’ll be armed with info to decide 1) do you want to spend any money to stick with PRS, and 2) if yes, which rifle do you really want.

Why that is important: at most PRS matches around the country, you won’t find many factory rifles. So shooting a sub-optimal AR for a year or so of PRS matches might give you time to design and build the right custom rifle for the game which best fits you. This would be a much better path then spending $1000-1500, or $2500 on a factory rifle and optic before you shoot your first match, only to realize that none of it survives contact with the enemy. I’ve heard that same story from new shooters many times - they spend a bunch of money before they come to their first match and realize saving just a little longer would have put them in the right rifle, but now they have an empty wallet and immediate depreciation losses on the wrong rifle they just bought.

 

[zdc1775]

Do not buy/build an AR for PRS use. It’s a train wreck. So if you want an AR for general purpose use, get the AR in 6 creed or 6 GT for a large frame, or 6 ARC for a small frame, but then get a bolt action rifle in 6 Creed or 6 GT for PRS use. Obviously, 6 creed doesn’t fit into AR-15’s.

6 ARC and 6 creed will be very different in gas guns. AR-15’s can’t take the pressure (bolt thrust) so they’re limited to the 2700fps ballpark with the 108/110 class bullets. AR-10’s/LFAR’s in 6 creed, on the other hand, will achieve 3100fps with these bullets. That increase in speed really makes targets bigger down range. The gap closes a little in bolt guns, with the ARC reaching up to around 2900fps, but again, the Creed will run around 3100-3200 without pushing too hard on pressure.

Visually, we can see the difference between these two. The Creed is a much larger case and gains considerable performance over the ARC.
View attachment 1123560

I have rifles in 6 Dasher, 6 Grendel, 6 ARC, 243win, and 6 Creed. Some use less powder and some have better barrel life than others, and some make targets bigger downrange compared to the others. I like chocolate chip cookies and double chocolate chip, and also like chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream… not all the same, not completely different, but always all good.

I will say that I have zero interest in running either an AR or 6 ARC in PRS, hence why I only mentioned that when I was talking about the bolt gun in 6CM.

And I will confess that apparently all the 6 ARC load data I have been looking at was for bolt guns so that changes my perspective drastically.

Can’t add much to @Varminterror’s post; good stuff. Since you want to build on an AR lower you already possess, I still think your path is to start with the 6 ARC.

Yeah, really the only reason I have been thinking about the 6 ARC is because I have as many stripped lowers as I do. Seemed like a really good compromise for a general purpose hunting/target rifle and probably still is.

By extension, and quaking a concession to my advice above:

If you own the lower and really want to build a 6 ARC, build a 6 ARC, and then bring it to a PRS match. It’ll be tough, and you’ll likely cuss a lot more than the guys around you running stick shifts, but you can see the game and put your fingers on a lot of other rifles and talk to a lot of other shooters to get the good, bad, and ugly on different match rifles and gear. THEN you’ll be armed with info to decide 1) do you want to spend any money to stick with PRS, and 2) if yes, which rifle do you really want.

Why that is important: at most PRS matches around the country, you won’t find many factory rifles. So shooting a sub-optimal AR for a year or so of PRS matches might give you time to design and build the right custom rifle for the game which best fits you. This would be a much better path then spending $1000-1500, or $2500 on a factory rifle and optic before you shoot your first match, only to realize that none of it survives contact with the enemy. I’ve heard that same story from new shooters many times - they spend a bunch of money before they come to their first match and realize saving just a little longer would have put them in the right rifle, but now they have an empty wallet and immediate depreciation losses on the wrong rifle they just bought.

I guess I should have added that I have actually shot quite a few PRS matches before just not in the past 6 or 7 years, ever since I got burned out on the various 6.5's actually. I mentioned it was a possibility with a new rifle because, honestly, I'm really not sure I want to put in enough time to be even remotely competitive again and the 6 CM seemed like the easy way to test the waters to see if I really do miss it as much as I think. And if not it still makes for a good target rifle for me to shoot at my home range without beating me up as much as the bigger rifles I have now do.