Top U.S. Army Marksman Explains Why Gun Nuts Shoot Better

[herrwalther]

You need to read up on tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, tachypsychia, and other things that happen in combat.

Tunnel vision is a biological side effect of large amounts of adrenaline being pumped into the bloodstream. The "best" fighters can do little to combat this other than opening up their field of vision and situational awareness. I was involved in "a few" firefights and it surprised me how heightened my senses became. I could hear and see what was around me better even though it is often difficult with equipment (helmet, radio etc) to focus on hearing anything.

 

[Cee Zee]

When I'm hunting I try to time my shots to when I know my sights are going to come in line with the target. I see my sights coming up to where the target is or if it's moving where it's going to be and I know I have to make the gun fire at the point my sight is on the target. And I haven't missed a squirrel in about 20 years. Same goes for feral dogs or whatever else I might happen to be shooting. I have missed a bird or two trying to snap shoot them while they're flying. I've hit some of them too. I hit bats flying too. If I spend time thinking about when I am going to pull the trigger the time to shoot is going to pass me right by. I don't have time to wait to be surprised either. I learned these things when I was 5 years old shooting my BB gun. I'm surprised there is such a controversy about it. Yeah if you're shooting targets and you have your gun in a rest where it just isn't going to move you can wait to be surprised. But even then it's clearly better to know when the gun will fire. My .223 sits as steady as any gun I've ever picked up but at 500 yards even the slightest gurgle in my gut can cause the barrel to move off target for a milisecond. If I get surprised at that point I miss. So I don't get surprised if I can help it. I do have to admit that my trigger is set so low that it will surprise me sometimes because I laid my finger on it too hard. That might happen 1 out of every 200 rounds.

 

[jcwit]

Somehow I doubt Brian Zins slaps his trigger at bullseye matches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Zins

Brian Zins is a former United States Marine Corps military police officer and Gunnery Sergeant. He is also a competitive shooter known for his proficiency with the M1911 pistol with which he holds various records at the NRA and other events. He is also known for competing in the second season of History Channel's marksmen competition Top Shot.

During that time, he participated in various competitions, setting several records.[3]

1991, first Lance Corporal to become Pistol Distinguished
1992, 2nd Place at the NRA National Matches at Camp Perry, Ohio
1993–1994, 1st Place at the Inter-service Pistol Championship with the Pistol Team
2006, set National Records for the Center Fire 900 and Center Fire Timed Fire
2006, tied National Record for the .45 National Match Course
2006, 2nd Place at the NRA National Matches
2007, set National Record Score for Military Police Corps Trophy
12x National Pistol Champion (1996, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007, 2008, 2010)[4]

Zins retired from the Marine Corps in May 2008.[5]

 

[Walkalong]

i hope you can appreciate how galactically bad that would be in combat

lol, no doubt.

When I first started playing baseball I had that trouble. I would focus so much on catching the ball I would lose track of everything else. I had to learn to focus on both at the same time. Some of the brain for tracking the ball, with a little keeping track of everything else.

But for Benchrest, it was very desirable, which is what I was speaking of. Maybe that part wasn't clear.

 

[taliv]

jcwit, how is your point related to the article in the OP?

 

[jcwit]

jcwit, how is your point related to the article in the OP?

The OP posts this

1. He lambasts the commonly repeated advice that shooters should “squeeze” the trigger in such a way that they feel surprised when the weapon goes off.
2. Another faulty notion is the idea that the shooter should keep their focus on their weapon’s sight as they aim.

Then the articule goes on with

He takes aim at many old school “secrets” to shooting that he believes derive from flawed reasoning. In particular, he lambasts the commonly repeated advice that shooters should “squeeze” the trigger in such a way that they feel surprised when the weapon goes off.

“I consider that a negligent discharge,” Satterlee says. He’s firm that surprise is never something a soldier should feel while handling a firearm.

“You should know when you’re going to shoot something,” he declares.

Course I do see where he says

He said another faulty notion is the idea that the shooter should keep their focus on their weapon’s sight as they aim. “That’s good for bullseyes or a stationary target,” he says.

 

[Deaf Smith]

i don't know anyone who says that.

those things are precisely why they train to maintain situational awareness. focusing on your sites or just one target in some zen-like trance is not at all desired behavior

Ain't 'zen like trances'.

It's seeing the threat in front of you and dispatching it ASAP once you have identified the threat and decided to engage.

I notice you don't comment on the likes of such as Jim Cirilo writing they did see their sights. Why is that?

Nor the fact all Tom Givens teaches is sighted fire, and precision sighted fire at that, and over 60 of his students did won. Some were just in his CCW classes but others took his more advanced classes. Why is that?

Yes there are times one can use just a physical index and not an optical one but I've already posted how to do that while attempting an optical one.

Deaf

 

[taliv]

uhh, because no one is advocating not seeing their sights so i didn't feel it was necessary to comment as it was just a distraction from the thread.

 

[lysanderxiii]

The question of training comes down to: during BRM (Basic Rifle Marksmanship), how best to teach someone, who increasingly has never seen a rifle other than on TV, how to become a good shot? (or at least able to hit a target 150 meters away 75% of the time.)

I think the current curriculum is pretty good. First to start with the basics sight alignment breathing and trigger squeeze. Later, after he/she has mastered the basics, we move to snap shooting, shooting at moving targets and shooting on the move. Some techniques of which seem to run counter to the basics (but not really, for the most part you just have to do the basics faster, much faster).

First you learn to walk, then you learn to run, then you learn how to ride the motorcycle.

Don't try and teach toddlers how to ride motorcycles....

 

[scythefwd]

but I see way too many folks in here giving new (defensive pistol) shooters the squeeze the trigger advice.

I think that is very important. It should be a motion repeated so frequently that you can do it at the speed of a slap and with the smoothness of a slow squeeze. Its about getting it into muscle memory so you aren't making rudimentary mistakes when you need to be smooth in a hurry.

Take a person that has done 10's of thousands of correct, slow, squeeze type trigger pulls, and tell them to speed up. Take a look at their a zone hits. Now hand the same pistol to a total beginner and have him go balls to the wall. Compare their two targets. Even if the slow shooter never has done a tatical shooting game.. I'd wager he outshoots the new guy the vast majority of the time. Technique gets ingrained in practice so you dont have to practice it during battle.

 

[basicblur]

Even if the slow shooter never has done a tatical shooting game.. I'd wager he outshoots the new guy the vast majority of the time.

There may be something to that.

After reading way too much back / forth over point shooting, I ordered one of Lenny McGill's videos on the subject. Seems he was as perplexed as I over why there was such contention over the subject, so he made a video covering the science / physics, and having shooters of varying experience try their hand at point shooting.

And the best point shooter of the bunch was....a gal that had never fired a gun before they made the video!
She was out (point) shooting a wide range of experienced shooters, some of which were not new to competition.

Yeah, I know folks love to make fun of his videos, but the ones he hosts aren't that bad for beginners / intermediate shooters, and the ones he makes with professionals are pretty darn good.

His Low Light Shooting & Flashlight Techniques (with Bill Wilson / Ken Hackathorn) is one of the better instructional videos I've seen on the subject.

BUT...flashlights and guns is a whole 'nother can o' worms...

 

[scythefwd]

That would have been interesting to see..

There is a LOT that goes into that though. Muscle memory is one thing. Natural point of aim is another. My favorite firearm, doesnt have near the same "natural" aim as an old revolver I once had. That I could pull up and the sights were always lined up exactly where I thought they were. My bhp (the favorite) isnt there, yet (still working on the muscle memory for that) but I can put a lot more rounds into the A target in the same amount of time.

I'm far from a competitive shooter.. I dont even attempt to compete. I DO know that I'm able to shoot faster now that I could a year ago because my fundamentals are better engrained.

 

[Frank Ettin]

but I see way too many folks in here giving new (defensive pistol) shooters the squeeze the trigger advice.

I think that is very important. It should be a motion repeated so frequently that you can do it at the speed of a slap and with the smoothness of a slow squeeze. Its about getting it into muscle memory so you aren't making rudimentary mistakes when you need to be smooth in a hurry....

First, we don't say "squeeze" these days. We say "press." "Squeeze" suggests squeezing the hand. A good trigger press is just the trigger finger moving straight back.

It can also be helpful to understand the way humans learn a physical skill. In learning a physical skill, we all go through a four step process:

1. unconscious incompetence, we can't do something and we don't even know how to do it;
   
   
2. conscious incompetence, we can't physically do something, at least consistently, even though we know in our mind how to do it;
   
   
3. conscious competence, we know how to do something and can do it properly consistently, but only if we think about what we're doing and concentrate on doing it properly; and
   
   
4. unconscious competence, at this final stage we know how to do something and can do it reflexively, on demand and without having to think about it.

To get to the third stage, you need to think through the physical task consciously in order to do it perfectly. Then going from conscious competence to unconscious competence is usually thought to take around 5,000 good repetitions. The good news is that, in the case of shooting, dry practice will count. The bad news is that poor repetitions don't count and can set you back.

If one has reached the stage of unconscious competence he will still need to practice regularly and properly to maintain proficiency, but it's easier to maintain it once achieved than it was to first achieve it.

And ss Clint Smith wrote in the January/February 2008 American Handgunner:

It's always argued that in a fight shooters will not look at their sights. I strongly agree -- if no one has ever taught them otherwise. To say that people don't, or won't, look at their sights is wrong. People have, they will in the future, and they'll hit the...target too. The correct alignment of the sights is a learnable skill. Is a textbook perfect sight picture available in every fight? Of course not....In fairness, the sights are only part of the issue -- the jerked on the trigger doesn't improve anything.

 

[scythefwd]

Well Frank, thats pretty much what I was trying to get at.. thank you for saying it more clearly than have.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Oh, and here's an interesting video in which Jeff Cooper explains the Compressed Surprise Break. The point is that with practice the time interval in which the shot breaks "by surprise" becomes vanishingly small.

 

[scythefwd]

I always thought the surprise thing was specifically to keep you from focusing on the break and more on the fundamentals surrounding it.

I have only had 1 rifle ever surprise me when it went off.. and it has a .5 oz trigger. I wasnt surprised that it went pew (22, aint no bang to it lol), but I wasn't able to identify that it was going to go pew until it did.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I always thought the surprise thing was specifically to keep you from focusing on the break and more on the fundamentals surrounding it....

I agree. That's pretty much it.

If one tries to make the gun fire right NOW, one will tend to apply a very quick and heavy pressure to the trigger; and that will tend to jerk the gun off target. It can also contribute to a flinch.

But if you apply a smooth, continuously increasing pressure to the trigger, the gun will eventually fire without jerking off target. And as you practice (perfectly) and develop the facility to reflexively (without conscious thought) apply a smooth, continuously increasing pressure to the trigger the time interval between beginning to press and the shot breaking gets progressively shorter until it become indistinguishable from being instantaneous. And that is the Compressed Surprise Break.

 

[taliv]

the point of the 'surprise' is that the bullet goes off before the shooter can screw it up by flinching. it's a workaround for amateurs with bad habits. it was great for basic training of a million recruits in WW1 and 2. it's not so great if you want to be a competitive shooter today.


i will also say learning to shoot fast by shooting fast is imho a better approach. people who try to learn a language by getting the fundamental rules and vocabulary down are rarely able to keep up with conversations as well as people who just jumped in and started learning by listening to real people talk at normal conversational pace.

in the ham radio world, they say anybody can learn morse code at 20 words per minute except for people who learned morse code at 5 words per minute.

 

[giggitygiggity]

I think we are overanalyzing some parts of the article. Sure, you don't want "surprises," but in the same vein, you do not want to anticipate the shot. I am sure that talking about negligent discharges, he was just trying to establish the point that shooters need to know their weapons, their skills, and not be surprised when the gun fires. Perhaps he wishes to not associate the word "surprise" with the action since the word suggests an action that is not expected. You should definitely expect the trigger to break and the gun to fire, but you should not anticipate it as that will lead to jerking the trigger, anticipating the recoil, not following through with your shot, etc.

Additionally, as far as the sights, you always want to keep that front sight clear. However, there are times where you may need to sacrifice the accuracy that is associated with a clear front sight. For instance, you may need to focus your eyes on potential targets such as if you enter a room during a hostage situation. You need to train to be able to identify targets and hostages which would be made hard if the front sight is clear and those figures are blurry.

I like Haley Strategic Partners. When shooting pistol, I like to use the Venti 100 Shot Wake Up Drill. Look it up on YouTube. It specifically addresses both focusing on the target and focusing on the potential targets.

I think the bottom line of the article was that static shooting at 500 yards with a rifle is rarely encountered in modern conflict. Most modern conflicts are in urban areas and require a more dynamic form of shooting and moving which also requires the brains of service members to more quickly identify and engage threats.

 

[Cee Zee]

If one tries to make the gun fire right NOW, one will tend to apply a very quick and heavy pressure to the trigger; and that will tend to jerk the gun off target. It can also contribute to a flinch.

Trigger pulling is half the battle to become a good shooter. That's why I have practiced it so much it's almost insane. I taped a laser to a pistol and pointed it at a wall (a pistol I could dry fire a lot) and kept pulling the trigger until I could make it break without moving the laser dot off the target even a little. That right there improved my shooting more than anything else I've ever done. The laser doesn't have to be zeroed with the sights or where the gun will shoot. It just has to stay put and not rattle around.

That's where I learned the muscle memory I now have for pulling a trigger. BTW if a person can do that with a pistol a rifle seems like child's play. I could shoot pretty well before I did that drill. I could shoot much better after I did it. I sat around for a month doing it as a matter of fact. I didn't even have ammo for that pistol and I didn't want any. I still checked it everytime I picked it up.

I made pulling a trigger part of my subconscious actually. I learned that from the Russians who spent a gigantic fortune trying to improve there performance in all sports. Shooting was one they worked hard on. It was important to them to win Olympic shooting contests. They advanced the science of sports a great deal and that's probably the biggest thing they learned. Anything that requires skill has to become part of your subconscious and it has to be a positive thing too instead of a negative one. A flinch is an example of a negative influence of your subconscious. I actually learned this stuff from one of the best shooters on the planet. He happens to be a friend of mine. He didn't know the Russians had developed that line of thinking but he definitely knew what it was. I found out later it originated with the Russians. I can't reveal his name because he has asked me not to. He gets a lot of grief from people that think they know more about shooting than he does. I'll just say he has done things no other human has done. And he was my mentor for a good while.

I can just about guarantee that my drill will improve the shooting ability of almost everyone on this site. Obviously there are some who have already master the art of shooting here. I'm not one of those. But my drill works especially for people who have a flinch or are totally new to shooting.

 

[taliv]

cee zee, i totally agree that your dry fire drill is super important and would help anyone. although i don't use a pistol with a laser for that, i do something pretty similar. but the laser is better because it makes any movement of the pistol really easy to see.

however, for this conversation, the point is that you have to be able to make the gun fire "right NOW" and still keep that laser from bouncing.

giggity, yep, but we also shoot moving targets at 500 yards with a rifle a lot. when trying to hit an 8" plate at 500 yards 10 times in 60 seconds, most people set up and ambush the target. that means they put their crosshairs where the target will be, and wait for it to hit their lead and then pull the trigger. if they don't pull the trigger at that instant, they will miss. so it's more or less imperative that you be able to pull the trigger without flinching exactly when you want the gun to go off. 'surprise' doesn't work at all.

 

[Walkalong]

That is correct, while I have experienced the "surprise" most shooting doesn't work like that.

Despite the precision needed in Benchrest, when you are shooting a specific "condition" you must be able to shoot well when that condition is there, which can sometimes be a very short time here and there, within a 7 minute time frame. Seven minutes may sound like a long time, and sometimes it is, but sometimes it goes very quickly. You might end up with 30 seconds left and two shots to make in a different condition because the one you were shooting just simply didn't come back around soon enough. Not only must you now judge a different condition and where to hold, but you must get those two shots off without jerking the trigger and making a bad shot. There is no time for surprise shots. You must be able to shoot when you need to.

 

[Cee Zee]

however, for this conversation, the point is that you have to be able to make the gun fire "right NOW" and still keep that laser from bouncing.

That's true. And I practiced not only repeat firing but snap firing after aiming like I'm point shooting or flash sight picture style. I practice various speeds actually. It's something easy to do as long as your vigilant to make sure it's done safely. It can help in many ways IMO. I actually have another drill where I rig up a switch to resemble a pistol trigger and practice point shooting and make pushing the laser button the equivalent of firing the pistol. That has helped me to get on target faster and more accurately.

 

[ljnowell]

If you don't feel the Zen, you won't understand the "surprise discharge" idea. I suppose that many shooters never have that experience.

When I am at my best, the whole world goes away. Nothing exists but the crosshairs and the bullseye. My grip slowly tightens, there is a loud bang....Oh...yeah... the rifle went off.

I'm a bullseye shooter and that feeling is hard to explain to people. It's akin to a powerful drug though. You go on autopilot, everything is home in your vision except the target and sight, and you don't really feel recoil or hear the gun.

It's a great feeling. My highest scores are shot when I'm in that mindset.

 

[DevsAdvocate]

Well, I disagree.
But I shot with old Army AMU many years ago, so what do I know?

Slapping the trigger may make you fast at 7 yards in a combat match?

But it won't win you any top level NRA Bullseye pistol trophies at 50 yards.

Rc

Because in War, all targets are static NRA approved bullseye targets at 25 yards...