Tough gun
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Willie Sutton
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"2,000 rounds begs for a high capacity double stack 9mm which leaves out lot of real world concealed guns.
:banghead:
You playing games, or training to win with what you will carry?
Most folks who have gone thru the Gunsite 250 course (the standard by which all others are compared) have shot the course with an 8 shot Model 1911. Most of the graduates carry one after they leave. They are confident and qualified with what they plan to use.
It's not a game. Train like you will fight.
Of the Roman legions it was written:
"Their drills were bloodless battles, and their battles were bloody drills"
Or you can play games, shoot something you will never carry, and waste your time in training. Choices, Choices....
Willie
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:banghead:
You playing games, or training to win with what you will carry?
Most folks who have gone thru the Gunsite 250 course (the standard by which all others are compared) have shot the course with an 8 shot Model 1911. Most of the graduates carry one after they leave. They are confident and qualified with what they plan to use.
It's not a game. Train like you will fight.
Of the Roman legions it was written:
"Their drills were bloodless battles, and their battles were bloody drills"
Or you can play games, shoot something you will never carry, and waste your time in training. Choices, Choices....
Willie
.
TimboKhan
Member
I have never had the money to go to a good training, but having shot a ton of pistols over the years my opinion is that most of the major manufacturers make guns that will outlast you. The primary concern, I would think, would be magazines as opposed to the actual firearm. I have stated relatively often that I have become a big XD fan, so that's what I would use. I would just bring a bunch of extra mags.
The other thing is maybe consider some basic small parts. Fact is, your gonna shoot any gun an order or two of magnitude harder in a training class than you are likely to shoot under normal circumstances. Any gun, from any manufacturer, of any type, is going to have the potential to break under those circumstances.
But, again, I have never done a hardcore training class so maybe I am wrong.
The other thing is maybe consider some basic small parts. Fact is, your gonna shoot any gun an order or two of magnitude harder in a training class than you are likely to shoot under normal circumstances. Any gun, from any manufacturer, of any type, is going to have the potential to break under those circumstances.
But, again, I have never done a hardcore training class so maybe I am wrong.
You gotta carry a 1911 if you wanna do good. The 8 round mags are great cuz you can learn to reload 2-3x more than you would with a more modern gun. The tighter tolerances also make for great malfunction drill training. Gung Ho!
Learn to carry something that is ridiculously large, heavy, and low cap or bust.
Old Dog
Member
I'm gonna have to disagree with Willie Sutton on this one. I've seen very few 1911s in classes over the past few years. Gunsite 250 may be the most awesome pistol class ever, but like it or not, a quick review of what people -- professionals, military, citizens -- are taking to gun school these days is going to unearth mostly double-stack 9s.
And if you can't effectively conceal a common double-stack 9mm (i.e., Glock 19, SIG P-228/229, SA XD/XDM, M&P), you just don't get it ... As for training what you carry, hell, a lot of the people I know proclaim their love for big guns, but in reality, pack little bitty single-stack 9s and .380s -- except for the true professionals that I know (and work with) who DO carry full-size guns, but usually NOT 1911s. (Maybe we're just different up here -- all the rain, perhaps?)
1911s are my first love, but I can't ignore what I've witnessed over the last several years.
And if you can't effectively conceal a common double-stack 9mm (i.e., Glock 19, SIG P-228/229, SA XD/XDM, M&P), you just don't get it ... As for training what you carry, hell, a lot of the people I know proclaim their love for big guns, but in reality, pack little bitty single-stack 9s and .380s -- except for the true professionals that I know (and work with) who DO carry full-size guns, but usually NOT 1911s. (Maybe we're just different up here -- all the rain, perhaps?)
1911s are my first love, but I can't ignore what I've witnessed over the last several years.
Willie Sutton
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^^
The point isn't to carry a 1911, the point is to take to the class what you intend to carry after you graduate. If you plan to carry a compact, take a compact to the class. It's not about "scoring well", it's about *gaining proficiency and confidence and learning the limits of YOUR choice in defensive arms, driven by whatever calculus you use to make your selection*. It's not a competition. If you come in last in the final shoot-off but do so with what you will carry shooting against guys that shoot a duty pistol in class and then switch to a compact for carry, you will be able to outshoot them the next day with your compact against theirs. Who got the value from training and who wasted their time and money and developed a false sense of confidence during the course? Not you....
When I went thru the Gunsite 250 I used what I carried daily which was a full sized M1911A1 built in WW-II and gently customized with good sights and a trigger job. There weren't any other good choices at that time other than the Colt 1911 and "Maybe" a Browning HP or two. In my class I shot with zero malfunctions with my old 1944 manufactured Colt, and that was pretty typical reliability among my peers there. I'm sure that there are many Glocks & SIGs shot there now, but when I went thru they hadn't even been invented yet, the S&W Model 59 was laughably unreliable, and the Browning HP was a rarity and only carried by a few Brit "professional adventurers" that came over for the course.
If you're taking the class for serious reasons, take my advice.
If you're going to take the course to play games, then I don't have any advice to offer other than the number of rounds you will shoot ought to be a break-in number for any quality modern pistol. 2000 is not really very many. Pick a pistol out of the apple-barrel and take it. If you are really preparing for a course you likely should have put 1000 thru it already and it ought to be good for another 10K afterwards before a tune up.
Willie
.
The point isn't to carry a 1911, the point is to take to the class what you intend to carry after you graduate. If you plan to carry a compact, take a compact to the class. It's not about "scoring well", it's about *gaining proficiency and confidence and learning the limits of YOUR choice in defensive arms, driven by whatever calculus you use to make your selection*. It's not a competition. If you come in last in the final shoot-off but do so with what you will carry shooting against guys that shoot a duty pistol in class and then switch to a compact for carry, you will be able to outshoot them the next day with your compact against theirs. Who got the value from training and who wasted their time and money and developed a false sense of confidence during the course? Not you....
When I went thru the Gunsite 250 I used what I carried daily which was a full sized M1911A1 built in WW-II and gently customized with good sights and a trigger job. There weren't any other good choices at that time other than the Colt 1911 and "Maybe" a Browning HP or two. In my class I shot with zero malfunctions with my old 1944 manufactured Colt, and that was pretty typical reliability among my peers there. I'm sure that there are many Glocks & SIGs shot there now, but when I went thru they hadn't even been invented yet, the S&W Model 59 was laughably unreliable, and the Browning HP was a rarity and only carried by a few Brit "professional adventurers" that came over for the course.
If you're taking the class for serious reasons, take my advice.
If you're going to take the course to play games, then I don't have any advice to offer other than the number of rounds you will shoot ought to be a break-in number for any quality modern pistol. 2000 is not really very many. Pick a pistol out of the apple-barrel and take it. If you are really preparing for a course you likely should have put 1000 thru it already and it ought to be good for another 10K afterwards before a tune up.
Willie
.
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RustyShackelford
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True, but.....
I agree with Willie's remarks in theory, but it's not always practical or realistic.
You should train or shoot the pistol/weapon you plan to carry-use most often but if a 9x19mm or .40 makes more sense, then so be it.
$, time, supply-logistics, etc can all be factors.
Most shooters or serious students don't have racks & racks of guns to pick from or huge $$$ bank accounts to stock up or plan for.
I'd carry a .45acp often but learning basic skills on a .40 or 9x19mm model would be okay.
If you can buy 9mm FMJs in bulk where you are(where the class is), then it's better than going 1200/1500 miles only to see the shop or local area has 0 .45acp rounds.
Can that happen in 2014? Sure.
Rusty
I agree with Willie's remarks in theory, but it's not always practical or realistic.
You should train or shoot the pistol/weapon you plan to carry-use most often but if a 9x19mm or .40 makes more sense, then so be it.
$, time, supply-logistics, etc can all be factors.
Most shooters or serious students don't have racks & racks of guns to pick from or huge $$$ bank accounts to stock up or plan for.
I'd carry a .45acp often but learning basic skills on a .40 or 9x19mm model would be okay.
If you can buy 9mm FMJs in bulk where you are(where the class is), then it's better than going 1200/1500 miles only to see the shop or local area has 0 .45acp rounds.
Can that happen in 2014? Sure.
Rusty
Willie Sutton
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^^ my advice is not caliber specific.
If you're going to carry a Glock 19, take that. If you're going to carry a Bersa, take that. If you're going to carry a SIG, take it. Just shoot what you are training to carry.
Willie
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If you're going to carry a Glock 19, take that. If you're going to carry a Bersa, take that. If you're going to carry a SIG, take it. Just shoot what you are training to carry.
Willie
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RustyShackelford
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100%....
That sounds good but may not always work.
That sounds good but may not always work.
HankB
Member
How about a Glock 26? Or a G19? Or a G17? The latest generations all work well, and seem to be insensitive to "limp wristing" which was the Achilles Heel of Gen 1 Glocks.
Actually, some years back I took a high round count class using a Browning HP Mk III and had zero malfunctions.
One gun I wouldn't recommend is a Walther; I know these guns are defended with an almost religious fervor by some of the people who have them, but I know some local IDPA shooters who abandoned theirs because of reliability issues; they seemed to need cleaning FAR more frequently than other brands of pistol.
Jim NE
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For reliability and good performance, the 9mm's of mine I'd chose would be a Ruger SR9c or a CZ 75 compact. The Ruger would be my first choice as it feels better (and lighter) in my hand than the CZ. If you want a CZ that would have better ergonomics and weight, you would do very well to look at the CZ 75 PCR or, the CZ P01. Or, you could do as I did and buy rubber grips and extended base plates for the compact.
Honestly, however, many guns could handle the kind of use OP specified. I have an old S&W Sigma that I would be confident in IF I brought the right ammo. Best wishes, and have fun at the training session.
Honestly, however, many guns could handle the kind of use OP specified. I have an old S&W Sigma that I would be confident in IF I brought the right ammo. Best wishes, and have fun at the training session.
I think you can bring a pistola you're not going to use after leaving training if your situation dictates; however you will gain the most shooting the gun you plan on carrying.
I'm a firm believer in carry what you practice with. My usual set up is one gun for the range, the same or a close variant to carry and for home. Any other gun I might have is for fun.
Mine would be the SD9VE and at least 4 mags total.
I'm a firm believer in carry what you practice with. My usual set up is one gun for the range, the same or a close variant to carry and for home. Any other gun I might have is for fun.
Mine would be the SD9VE and at least 4 mags total.
meanmrmustard
Member
I think after taking these courses, folks feel very proficient with the weapon they trained with.
Unfortunately, that's one weapon. I see the need to have faith and training invested in your carry gun. But, depending on the scenario, some folks don't carry the same gun EVERY DAY. I know I don't.
I'd train with any and all weapons I plan on fighting with.
Wise man say " True warriors do not have a favorite weapon". Art of War.
Unfortunately, that's one weapon. I see the need to have faith and training invested in your carry gun. But, depending on the scenario, some folks don't carry the same gun EVERY DAY. I know I don't.
I'd train with any and all weapons I plan on fighting with.
Wise man say " True warriors do not have a favorite weapon". Art of War.
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