Tradactical? Retrotactipractical? Does functional HD HAVE to be ugly?? PIC HEAVY

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Girodin, I have seen the light. Thank you. I shall cover my AK in more accessories than the gun itself cost and take urban combat zombie meth head pirate ninja tactical operator home self anti terrorist special forces classes from one of the cooooolest instructors on the internet at once. I am pathetic for lacking room clearing and rappelling skills. :p

Just kidding.

How 'bout we agree to disagree?
 
Before the Lock

I do not think it unlikely that 4 or 5 or 10 assailants to be out of the ordinary.

Actually, with all y'all dumping so many precious funds into "updating" your shotguns, I wouldn't be surprised to see four or five of you banding together to try to recoup some of that wasted cash.:neener:
 
How 'bout we agree to disagree?

Sure, lets be clear about what we are disagreeing on though

Girodin, I have seen the light. Thank you. I shall cover my AK in more accessories than the gun itself cost and take urban combat zombie meth head pirate ninja tactical operator home self anti terrorist special forces classes from one of the cooooolest instructors on the internet at once. I am pathetic for lacking room clearing and rappelling skills.

You probably ought to read post 49 again as well as the above indicates that you don't really get what I was saying either, to whit, that you need not feel compelled to do anything to your gun that you don't like and nowhere in this thread have I made a normative statement about about accessories other than to do what best serves you.


I'm not trying to be jerk, but I'll take your silence and refusal to respond throughout this thread to mean you cannot tell us why an AK would be at a functional disadvantage with an ultimak and a micro T1 aim point, or why it would be less functional with a rail and a light.

I also have a feeling about why you did not care to share how man AKs you have shot and what configurations they have been in (you know the experience upon which you are basing your assertions).

There really is no point in continuing this discussion since one side only cares to create straw man arguments based off horribly wresting (or not understanding) the others contentions. Shy of anyone stating why particular gear is or is not useful, there is not much to discuss.

I doubt that anyone here genuinely believes that an AK is always "best" for every conceivable purpose it might be called upon to fill (from conversation piece, to plinker, to combat) for every single user on the face of the planet. Even if that is what they have argued. The fact that the above is an untenable position has been stated and restated and doing so further without new evidence that such a contention might have merit is pointless.

I certainly get how condasention works. This one is done for me---

Take it that way if you like, but the fact is basic formal logic and basic arguementation) (Things like if A then B. If C then A. Therefore, if C then B and there contra positives etc) are actually something many people don't really understand. Understanding them really does help one to follow logical contentions.

It is arguably more condescending (and actually intended as such) to tell people is only one right way to equip their firearms and that if they do not do it as you see fit (despite you giving no clear reason for it outside of dogmatic belief) they are wrong, wasting their money, stupid, a mall ninja, delusional, engaging in door kicker fantasies etc etc. than to ask someone if they understand a concept that from all indication is foreign to them. Re-read the posts and I think you will see where there was genuinely a condescending attitude at work.
 
I'm not trying to be jerk, but I'll take your silence and refusal to respond throughout this thread to mean you cannot tell us why an AK would be at a functional disadvantage with an ultimak and a micro T1 aim point, or why it would be less functional with a rail and a light.

Because after a dunk in water, immersion in sand, being run over, or getting cleaned with bootlaces and motor oil, none of that stuff will work like the rest of the gun will.

Many a third world militant would laugh at the idea of an AK-47 that needs batteries
 
none of that stuff will work like the rest of the gun will.

An ulitmak gas tube will fail while a stock one wont? Are you sure about that? A polymer railed fore end wont survive that? It probably will survive it better than wood.

Are you sure you do not want to reconsider whether various aimpoint sights can be submerged in water or sand and still work? *HINT they can. They are designed for hard use. As to being run over that probably depends on what runs over it. Even the AK wont survive being run over by some stuff.

I don't think even your third world guerrilla would try to clean the sight with motor oil so I wont comment beyond saying that if you wiped it all off I'm not sure why the sight wouldn't work. It would not hurt a rail or an ultimak, or a VFG (some AKs even come that way).

Batteries do run out; aimpoints usually do so after 50,000 hrs of RUNTIME (some models are less). 50K hours is more than 5.7 years. Given the life expectancy of a third world militant that's not to shabby. Even if they couldn't manage to get a spare battery with that fancy aimpoint it would last them a very long time. Of course supply problems are a factor and should of course be considered by any user. If no batter can be found after the ten years the sight is on there, it could be removed.

Yes equipment OME or otherwise is subject to breaking. If the part breaks you can remove it. Now you are no worse of than you started. War is hard use and things like optics certainly break, yet modern war fighters with a choice still opt for them.

Many a third world militant would laugh at the idea of an AK-47 that needs batteries

Let's assume that the above statement is true, even in the absence of any evidence that it is. Many such individuals don't have stocks on their guns and don't use the sights to aim either. Many have never had the opportunity to use the equipment that all military with a choice have adopted, so although they laugh their opinion is based on no experience of how useful such equipment may or may not be. Given a real choice I am not sure they would actually reject it. They might just as well embrace it. Where the US has intervened to equip and train such fighters they typically take the technology and training with open arms.

I think 3rd world militants don't use certain equipment because the do not have access to it. That is a different issue than how it would function for them. I read your real argument as saying there might be supply chain issues not that the equipment its self doesn't enhance the overall usefulness of the weapon.

Let's say for the sake of argument they really would not be better served by it (although I think that point is highly debatable). That would be one instance where one's purposes would not be better served. As I have said all along it would thus behoove them not to use it. Yet we have not meet the burden of proof that it is never better to have it. It is far from convincing that it wouldn't enhance function given different parameters (say a person who can buy a battery every decade as needed).
 
BTW, see how I addressed your points with out suggesting that you have Che Guevara 3rd world revolution fantasies.
 
this discussion has gone weird.

First off, I dont think "you can run over it with a truck" is a feature I plan to need.

Remember, AKs make people FEEL a certain way. They want to feel 3rd world, indestructable, and most of all INEXPENSIVE.

People who own AKs pride themselves on spending less money then their AR fanatic friends. So convicing them they need <overpriced> red dots is going to be a HARD SELL.

Remember, these guys dont care about accuracy, weight, etc they are into blasting away, and ultimate reliability.

Red Dots dont provide either of those.

I doubt you will convince an AK user that his gun is either outdated, or somehow not perfect just the way it is.


And in the end.. thats fine :) I am in the market for an AK myself for just those reasons.

I have an AR, and spending 500 for a red dot is hard for me to do. I havent done it. It would be pretty close to impossible for an AK purist.
 
Also, sometimes tactical is practical.

I have a 26 inch wingmaster shotgun from 69. 10 shot w/ the extention.

I threw a 20 dollar speedfeed forend on it. <black, so thats tactical>

and a Magpul ACS stock and AR buffer tube with a MIAD grip in a $35 AR stock adapter

So thats an additional $200 bucks for the stock and all that.


On the other hand, it fits in my duffel bag now, is now right at the length of my longest gun so it fits in the hard case, and the pistol grip is just GREAT for hauling around the woods, I wouldnt give that up for anything. so much more comfy to hold at a high position.


I also think it looks great, and can be adjusted shorter or longer <my best friend is almost 7 ft, with monkey arms> and has a nice compartment for earplugs and a cleaning kit, and battery compartment for the light.

Really, for what I paid for the gun in total <less than 400> I got a lot in return.

Sometimes tactical is practical.
 
Since we're off topic anyway, are wood stocks really that much weaker and harder to care for than synthetics? I know that wood has less tolerance and is susceptible to cracking, but is the leap from wood to synthetic as great as many people make it out to be?
 
And for HD a light is a must have, and no "tactical" at all. We all know that.

We do?? I don't think so. I have enough ambient light in my house, I have one other person who sleeps next to me. I have NO need for anything that can snag, break, or upset the balance of the gun

Don't make blanket statements for the rest of us....some of us just aren't into tackycool add-ons that can, and do, fail at the wrong moment
 
Since we're off topic anyway, are wood stocks really that much weaker and harder to care for than synthetics? I know that wood has less tolerance and is susceptible to cracking, but is the leap from wood to synthetic as great as many people make it out to be?

Not at all, they're just more expensive to make - they don't have a tendency to shatter if you bang them on the ground either...... ;)
 
Since this thread needs more pics... Here's the quick evolution of my 26" 870 Exp Mag into my HD closet gun... only other thing I am adding is the 2 shell extended mag, and maybe, just MAYBE a pressure activated light, so I can truely see/blind whatever has gotten into my house...

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Since we're off topic anyway, are wood stocks really that much weaker and harder to care for than synthetics?

Except for the few instances where a composite stock can be an aid to extreme accuracy, it exists in the market place soley because it is cheaper to manufacture, less labor intensive to assemble, lighter so shipping is less. Bottom line, synthetics offer a higher margin to the manufacturer. I have a number of rifles over 40 years old, all wood, all look and perform great. If you don't treat it like you hate it, even freaquently used guns can maintain pretty furniture. I prefer wood. As for longevity, millions of M1, M1a, M14 and AK owners would state emphatically that the wood on their combat weapons served them just fine. 10 times that many would so testify to the longevity of their bolt action, lever action, pump action, semi-auto rifles & shotguns filling the swamped duck / deer/ dove blinds & fields over the years. Wood seems to have worked just fine for all of them as well.
 
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And for HD a light is a must have, and no "tactical" at all. We all know that.

We do?? I don't think so. I have enough ambient light in my house, I have one other person who sleeps next to me. I have NO need for anything that can snag, break, or upset the balance of the gun

Don't make blanket statements for the rest of us....some of us just aren't into tackycool add-ons that can, and do, fail at the wrong moment

Well thought out..........plus one.

Except for the few instances where a composite stock can be an aid to extreme accuracy, it exists in the market place soley because it is cheaper to manufacture, less labor intensive to assemble, lighter so shipping is less. Bottom line, synthetics offer a higher margin to the manufacturer. I have a number of rifles over 40 years old, all wood, all look and perform great. If you don't treat it like you hate it, even frequently used guns can maintain pretty furniture. I prefer wood. As for longevity, millions of M1, M1a, M14 and AK owners would state emphatically that the wood on their combat weapons served them just fine. 10 times that many would so testify to the longevity of their bolt action, lever action, pump action, semi-auto rifles & shotguns filling the swamped duck / deer/ dove blinds & fields over the years. Wood seems to have worked just fine for all of them as well.

Another post right on target.

Plus one.

This discussion does seem to fall into two camps. One says anything tactical may make the gun shoot better for them. And the other group feels that a standard unaltered firearm works just fine for them. In fact it may be simpler and handier without the extras. (A good example here would be an M1 Carbine) We may just have to agree to disagree...................I'm noticing that no one is changing their views.

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M1 Carbine with the accessories that I like. :neener:
 
This discussion does seem to fall into two camps. One says anything tactical may make the gun shoot better for them. And the other group feels that a standard unaltered firearm works just fine for them.

I do not believe that those are the two sides of the discussion here. I think a more accurate assessment is that one side says use what works best for you and your purposes. Than can be anything from bone stock to a gun w/thousands of dollars of add ons. The other side is saying that everyone should always leave their gun stock.

That is the real distinction between the two camps. Which position seems more reasonable?
 
You guys just haven't figured out that it is totally not cool to own anything more than a well worn four-shot 1978 Remington 870 Police model with wood furniture and the arms room control number scrawled into the bottom of the grip. Like the one Greensboro Gander Mt. has in their used rack. I almost bought it last night. :D

I have an ammo sling on my 870s because I feel more comfortable with another 12 rounds on board and I need a sling to transition. And most importantly, I've learned to use it and not merely be encumbered by it. I have a breeching muzzle brake on one of them because the muzzle brake part actually works and the only way to get that is to have the one with teeth on the end. I may put a light on my 870s at some point, if I think I might ever actually need one. And I have a cheap red dot on my AKs because my eyes are aging and I work better with it. Everything I have on my HD/SHTF guns is something I think I might use, and is something I have learned to use to my advantage and not be encumbered by it.

If a shotgun sling, a muzzle brake, and a red dot sight on an AK is 'Mall Ninja' so be it. While I humbly appreciate the advice I am graciously given here, I don't let others' opinions affect what I do to my guns unless someone can show me how it is not advantageous. That has happened, and it may happen again. And I call that learning from others who know more than I, not trying to be part of the in crowd at THR. :)

You guys are tops ... even if you're sometimes snobby. :D
 
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Guns are a big part of hunting. That may sound simplistic, but part of why I enjoy hunting is because I enjoy shooting. I enjoy firearms.

I enjoy handling them, carrying them in the field, setting them in my lap in the stand, and riding with them muzzle down in the front seat of my truck. If I want to simply kill game, I can do that with a net and a hammer.

I am looking for more than that. Black plastic on a hunting gun especially just relegates that gun to killing duties IMO, nothing more than a tool for a task. Certain guns must have that description, and I accept that. It's why I carry a Glock.

But when simple ENJOYMENT permits itself, I want something that looks good and feels good, and offers something more to the experience.

Even a dedicated HD shotgun, or an AK with decent furniture like the ones in my original post can offer some asthetic enjoyment. It's all subjective, and these are of course preferences for me.
 
Two words.

Gun Bling.

And I have no dog in this fight,

'Cause I'm OK with what I've got.

isher
 
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