Training and Practicing Close Quarter/Firearm Retention From Home

[AOK]

Many people that go shooting for self defense purposes don't have the ability to practice or train shooting from retention or other close quarter techniques. Even if you do have an opportunity to shoot at the range from retention is that alone enough? Force-on-force classes, retention classes and the like are invaluable but how do you work on what you have learned outside of classes? Some of us are lucky enough to have a range that allows us to shoot from retention and move around, but can you REALISTICALLY snap a strike out to your target which is likely just a piece of paper with possibly a thin piece of plywood or cardboard backer? The reason I emphasize REALISTICALLY is because I'm guessing most students that have done some force-on-force training understand the type of force it can take to create space between you and a realistic attacker trying to hurt you or get your gun. Believe it or not if you haven't experienced this it's not always easy to clear your garment, draw a weapon with a positive grip from concealment while simultaneously trying to make a strong strike to create space.

Personally, some of my most valuable close quarter and retention practice/training comes from inside my home. My materials (outside of my standard carry gear and snap caps) include a heavy bag, an old long sleeve shirt filled with some old clothes hung up on a hanger, and some gloves attached to the end of the sleeves.

What can I do with these materials? I can realistically strike the heavy bag to simulate creating space between me and the attacker. This can be practiced by throwing palm heal strikes to the sternum, throw out an elbow into the upper torso/chin area, or snap out a front kick to the knees. I can hit the face with a palm heal strike and walk through/steam roll the heavy bag. I can also work on snapping out numerous strikes to the heavy bag that keeps swinging back at me simulating an assailant that desperately keeps trying to attack me after the inital strike.

I can also hang the makeshift torso on the heavy bag. With the torso I can work on retention. I can work on retaining my firearm with the assailants hand on my firearm while holstered (one handed or multiple hands). I can work on the assailant having ahold on my arm while I fight to keep the firearm holstered. I can also work on retention from bear hugs (front/back w/arms down or free), chokes from the (front/rear/sides), headlocks and more.

Good students are always looking for ways to improve their training and practice. We look for our weaknesses and try to shore up those weak links. I felt one of my weak areas was fighting with a firearm in close quarter situations and retention. As much as I love training and practicing this with live fire I still felt my training outside of classes was coming up short. As a result, while I felt like I had been working toward shoring up this weakness, I also believed I needed to create a plan and way to practice/train with real force that I would have to use against an aggressive attacker.

Please don't get me wrong, I don't think this is THEE way to work on retention and close quarter fighting with a firearm at home. I just believe it is A way to help make my training and practice as realistic as possible and to work on techniques I have learned through classes and one-on-one sessions. I also believe it is A way to supplement my live fire training. Best of all, it's something anybody can do in their own home (as long as you have the space),at a minimal cost of a heavy bag (which you can find cheap on craigslist if finances are tight), and a little time to hang it up and stuff an old used shirt.

I know close quarter and retention training/practice isn't enjoyable for many students or tops on their list of priorities. However, for those that do work on it, how do you train and practice? Have you used a heavy bag or torso before with your firearm training outside of a class? If so, how did you utilize the heavy bag and/or torso?

 

[xXxplosive]

Have a heavy bag hung in my basement......practice with it alot, strikes, steam roll and draw. It's a very useful practice tool and doesn't take up much room.
Question:
How does the stuffed shirt help you....not quite sure about it's usefulness.....please further explain with regards to utilizing the heavy bag.

Thanks......

 

[AOK]

Technically the torso doesn't need to be stuffed but I do prefer it (I'll get to that shortly). I primarily have it filled for hand-to-hand defense so I have the ability to grab and paw at the torso as I may do if different situations in a real fight. I like to hang the torso on the heavy bags chains so I can realistically strike during weapon retention work to practice creating space between the assailant once I break their hold.

You could do some of the drills I do with just a long sleeve shirt hung on a wall and stopping short of my actual strikes to create space. However, since I want my training to be as realistic as possible I want to be able to use actual force and feel the impact of an actual strike for different reasons such as balance.

One thing I can say about the stuffed torso (this is personal preference) I like feeling of a torso behind me versus just a heavy bag when doing chokes and bear hugs from behind. It gives me a sense of a body behind me and a point of reference that I would be using in a real self defense situation when my back is turned to the attacker.

 

[xXxplosive]

I can hang a manakin from the chains too but do you attach it to the bag some how like maybe a thin rope....? I practice palm and elbo strikes at the bag while steam rolling through, drawing and fireing with the muzzle pointed at a downward angle so as not to injure myself / arm.
I'm still not really clear on the stuffed manakin though.....guess I'm just not getting it...there.
I can understand hand position on a stuffed manakin but other than that...the bag is what it's about I guess for me.

What type of excercises do you perform on the stuffed manakin ? I can difinately learn from this and further utilize my heavy bag and equipment.

Thanks

 

[AOK]

I can hang a manakin from the chains too but do you attach it to the bag some how like maybe a thin rope....? I practice palm and elbo strikes at the bag while steam rolling through, drawing and fireing with the muzzle pointed at a downward angle so as not to injure myself / arm.
I'm still not rally clear on the stuffed manakin though.....guess I'm just not getting it...there.
I can understand hand position on a stuffed manakin but other than that...the bag is what it's about I guess.

I literally have the filled shirt on a hanger and hook the hanger to the change above the bag.

I, like you have the muzzle pointed down naturally when I go into the retention position I prefer (#2 draw stroke). If I create enough space where we won't be making contact I can start to stand more erect and my muzzle natually raises to the middle to upper torso.

Regarding the stuffed torso, I am not really sure how else to explain it. It really doesn't need to be filled, I just personally prefer it. Especially if my back is to the attacker simulating chokes and bear hugs.

For example, one of my defenses for a bear hug from behind with my arms pinned to my sides..... I start by basing out and stepping out with my left foot. This basically helps pin the gun between me and the attacker (or the stuffed torso) as well as pins my arm against the gun to a point where he wouldn't be able to grab it. (Of course depending on how strong the attacker is and where/how you carry your gun, it may not be pinned at all.) I throw hammer fists to the groin and as soon as I feel his grip start to loosen I start to rotate my firearm away from the assailant (or torso) while. As I'm rotating my dominant hand is getting a grip on the firearm for retention purposes and my off hand is striking and working on creating space.

This is just one example of the times I prefer feeling a torso rather than a cylinder shaped heavy bag. It helps give me a feeling of my firearm being pinned where the assailant can't get the firearm. If I just have the heavy bag and I put the middle of my back against it, when I go through the same technique I won't feel the firearm pinned on anything unless I over rotate around the bag.

 

[xXxplosive]

Hmmm......on the choke from behind, I try to turn in while placing my left leg behing the BG's right one....I then go into a crouch position and strike utilizing the power form the that crouch position and my body weight....then while creating distance draw and fire if necessary.
I will try the stuffed shirt technique and let you know if it works for me.....sounds like a good simulation...I try to spend at least some time every day on the bag....some days only 15 min....plus weights afterwards and sometimes longer depending how I feel.
The heavy bag is an integral part of my CQB home training but no one ever wants to get that close.

One morning many years ago, I was opening up my business in the early hours of a November morning in the dark in Newark NJ. I usually had my dog with me but for some reason I broke with tradition and left him in my 4WD vehicle.....I just got the lights tunred on in the office when I hear the door behind me start to open. I jambed my shoulder against the door to find a guy there in the dark asking me for money. The only thing I did right that morning was to put my S&W Model 36 in my pocket befor leaving my truck....well he was there and maybe there was 4 feet between us....he looked in my eyes as I told hime I had no money and to leave. He hesitated for a moment looked at my hand in my coat pocket and moved on....I had him stone cold and I guess my demeaner and confidense showed that...so I guess what I'm saying is ...Yes, close encounters can happen unexpectedly...."I just don't know where he came from" is the old addage....One must be prepared for it all today if that's possible....

 

[AOK]

Hmmm......on the choke from behind, I try to turn in while placing my left leg behing the BG's right one....I then go into a crouch position and strike utilizing the power form the that crouch position and my body weight....then while creating distance draw and fire if necessary.
I will try the stuffed shirt technique and let you know if it works for me.....sounds like a good simulation...I try to spend at least some time every day on the bag....some days only 15 min....plus weights afterwards and sometimes longer depending how I feel.
The heavy bag is an integral part of my CQB home training but no one ever wants to get that close.

One morning many years ago, I was opening up my business in the early hours of a November morning in the dark in Newark NJ. I usually had my dog with me but for some reason I broke with tradition and left him in my 4WD vehicle.....I just got the lights tunred on in the office when I hear the door behind me start to open. I jambed my shoulder against the door to find a guy there in the dark asking me for money. The only thing I did right that morning was to put my S&W Model 36 in my pocket befor leaving my truck....well he was there and maybe there was 4 feet between us....he looked in my eyes as I told hime I had no money and to leave. He hesitated for a moment looked at my hand in my coat pocket and moved on....I had him stone cold and I guess my demeaner and confidense showed that...so I guess what I'm saying is ...Yes, close encounters can happen unexpectedly...."I just don't know where he came from" is the old addage....One must be prepared for it all today if that's possible....

Thats one of the ways I have been taught on a rear naked choke as well (different than someone coming from behind and wrapping up my arms as I was explaining). One of the worries I have with that technique is feet getting tangled and we both go to the ground. It can easily happen if you and the assailant are moving all around and/or bumping into things. Going to the ground may not be a terrible thing (especially if you were at least succesful at getting out of the choke), but if there is another assailant nearby ready to start stomping you as soon as you get to the ground then it could get bad quick. Don't get me wrong, it is one viable option, it does have some drawbacks though (as do MANY techniques for that matter).

Sounds like you handled the situation great at the office and you are correct, close encounters can happen. It's not fun for most of us to work on but if you aren't prepared to handle it when the moment of truth comes....... That's why we train/practice and continue to learn!

 

[scaatylobo]

Get a friend

Then see it you can retrieve your weapon [ broomstick will do ] after a barrel grab.

Attack the thumbs by making circular moves up and around.

The thumb does not go that way,so somethings gotta give.

Do the drills with HEAVY gloves as you dont really want to see how much damage you will cause.

After the release [ yes,he will let go ] do simulated bayonet strike to chest/facial area to get attacker off .

If you have access or can afford it,buy a 'red' long gun,then you will have a better weight and a more realistic training sense.

I was lucky to use the red guns at the acedemy and the drill really works,even if the op-for is dumb enough to really try resisting.

I still laugh at those students that had to force the issue.

 

[AOK]

Then see it you can retrieve your weapon [ broomstick will do ] after a barrel grab.

Attack the thumbs by making circular moves up and around.

The thumb does not go that way,so somethings gotta give.

Do the drills with HEAVY gloves as you dont really want to see how much damage you will cause.

After the release [ yes,he will let go ] do simulated bayonet strike to chest/facial area to get attacker off .

If you have access or can afford it,buy a 'red' long gun,then you will have a better weight and a more realistic training sense.

I was lucky to use the red guns at the acedemy and the drill really works,even if the op-for is dumb enough to really try resisting.

I still laugh at those students that had to force the issue.

Are you referring to if someone has grabbed onto the end of the barrel of your long gun? I agree, the small circle/big circle technique is a very effective way to get the assailant to release the barrel. Of course if the are in front of the muzzle it would be easier to just pull the trigger a few times. ;-)

I remember the first time I was practicing this technique with a blue AR in a class. I got so scraped up it only took me one time to put on my sparring gloves!

 

[Owen Sparks]

The only realist way to practice is with a partner.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I use a combination of:

My laser Glock ex-airsoft and a all metal Glock 26 look-alike that is used to make holsters.

That way with a bag I can practice drawing and shooting from the hip in retention mode (or just plain hip shooting) any time.

Deaf

 

[conw]

I agree with the need to understand retention shooting.

In boxing and MAs, the time it takes to punch or hit is known as a "beat." A "beat" is the amount of time you take to hit someone or launch a reasonably fast strike/attack, plus maybe the amount of time before you can hit again (or they can hit you). A good boxer working combos might hit on the half-beat which is why combos are a successful strategy.

Regarding striking to open up a window to draw: I disagree that a "beat" is enough time to be able to draw and get a carry gun into position. You are gambling that you get a good hit on the guy. You are gambling that he won't interfere with your draw if he isn't KO'd. You are gambling that he won't counterpunch, if he is a boxer.

A single punch or even a solid combo of jab-cross will not create much time.

Look at this clip of Mike Tyson's KOs around 1:00:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v0vl6iTlC4

Look how many solid hits the white guy takes before he falls. Tyson does not create space nor does he stun the guy bad enough he could have drawn a gun. You aren't Mike Tyson. Can you reliably hit an unknown hard enough that you could do that?

I think striking to draw a gun is barking up the wrong tree.

 

[AOK]

The only realist way to practice is with a partner.

I certainly agree there is nothing that can replace FOF training and it is the most realistic way to practice. However, while I have taken such courses and will continue to do so from time-to-time I do not have a partner to actually work on retention and close quarter fighting. Since I have a family, work, shoot once a week, go to firearm classes once every few months and attend KM three days a week this will unfortunately have to do for me until I learn of other suggestions or hit up my next FOF class.

Like I said, this isn't thee way to train in these areas. It is however a way and considering I don't have a partner or time/finances to attend FOF classes on a frequent basis this will have to do for now. I believe it is a solid addition to live fire work on the range where I can't use real force on a paper target.

Do you have any suggestions outside of class or partners?

 

[AOK]

Cowict-

I think a boxer and a close quarter fight with a firearm is much different IMHO. Tyson doesn't want to create space, he wants to be in close enough to strike as often as possible. Compared to me where I want to create space not just with a strike (I did learn in FOF classes how little space it creates and more so just maintains while drawing), but also with proper movement and proper body position. My goal isn't necessarily to create as much space between my body and the assailants body but more to create space between the assailant and my gun. Those are two very different things in my opinion.

Also, I don't need to stun or KO the assailant to make a clean draw. I need to create space with a strike, proper movement, and body positioning and hopefully put a slight hitch into his OODA loop. My draw starts at the same time I throw out my initial strike and by time it lands I'm a few tenths of a second away from being into a rention position ready to dump rounds into him.

I agree, this technique can be a gamble. As can any decision we make in a self defense situation whether we use a different technique, run, or comply. They are all gambles and it takes luck to survive any life or death situation regardless of your level of self defense experience or decision.

 

[AOK]

Regarding striking to open up a window to draw: I disagree that a "beat" is enough time to be able to draw and get a carry gun into position. You are gambling that you get a good hit on the guy. You are gambling that he won't interfere with your draw if he isn't KO'd. You are gambling that he won't counterpunch, if he is a boxer.

I forgot to address the counterpunch.

I am definitely aware of the risk of a counter punch if he is a boxer, has some other form of hand to hand training, or just plain old gets lucky. One of the drills we did in one of my FOF classes the assailant had gloves on in addition to his pads. He would hit us to get a feel of how it can add to the difficulty of a draw (and add difficulty to other things) as you mentioned.

In regards to technique and their counter, if I am not steam rolling I would quickly retract my initial strike into a guard position with my off hand protecting the side of my head. This will certainly still leave the right side of my face vulnerable. When in the retention position my body is not erect. It is angled down slightly which will naturally have my head down slightly. There is a chance he could make a direct hit to the side of my face but there is also a chance he could strike the top of the side of my head which will hurt more for him than it will for me.

Obviously just because I am protecting the left side of my head does not mean a shot to the ribs isn't open. However, I am 100% fine with an exchange of a shot to the ribs and in return have my gun out in the fight ready to dump rounds into him. Yes, it will suck for me but it's going to suck for him even more.

 

[conw]

I'm not against the concept of striking to open up a draw, but I really like Southnarc's grappling based in-fight weapon access, personally. You ought to take his ECQC.

 

[AOK]

I'm not against the concept of striking to open up a draw, but I really like Southnarc's grappling based in-fight weapon access, personally. You ought to take his ECQC.

You are right. I have been eyeing Southnarc for a while now. I've heard nothing but good things. I just need to quit putting it off make it happen.

I think grappling and being able to retain and/or bring your weapon into a fight is a very important skill to have. Admittedly that is an area of weakness for me. I have very limited experience in grappling with a firearm but we did cover it in one of the FOF classes. Primarily the grappling covered on the ground and a little standing. Standing was very minimal (primarily focused on how to stay on our feet and controlling the assailants arm that is closest to my gun) and we didn't cover any work in areas such as inside a vehicle or other scenarios we may find ourselves in.

May I ask what you consider was some of the most valuable experiences in that class?

Thanks for your insight by the way!

 

[xXxplosive]

"I agree, this technique can be a gamble. As can any decision we make in a self defense situation whether we use a different technique, run, or comply. They are all gambles and it takes luck to survive any life or death situation regardless of your level of self defense experience or decision"........AOK.


Choosing this technique for me, although I do practice it, would be a last ditch effort to bring my firearm into play. It's not something I would try to rely on as I would not let the BG close the distance if that was a possibility. But close-in encounters in parking lots, on sidewalks, in "Fringe Areas" in general are likely to happen and in the low light hours the preditor has the advantage as his plan is already in action. We are constantly on the defensive and must employ any tactic to survive the situation we are served.

 

[conw]

May I ask what you consider was some of the most valuable experiences in that class?

Personally, it opened me up to the concept that a fight is inherently multidisciplinary. He focuses on the "0-5" foot range in ECQC which a lot of people feel is limiting, but I ask: Why? If you can excel at that range, you can probably excel at other ranges. And anyway, it's not like BGs walk up from 20 feet with their knife drawn, usually.

There is a lot of wishful thinking going on, e.g. (to pick on the poster above me) "I won't let them get close." I don't know where you guys live but where I live people walk by me in parking lots, on the sidewalk, in stores, and outside of stores all the time. It's inavoidable: every single day, someone gets within 5 feet of me. In fact I wouldn't want people to avoid me; it's just not natural for EVERYONE you encounter to stay outside of the 5-foot range.

It's much better to develop a relative comfort level with that range instead of believing you can use a mean voice and OC spray to keep everyone at a distance. Don't get me wrong, "too close" is a bad thing, but SN gives you everything you need to recognize cues of violence, movement skills to stay in a dominant position and deal with multiples, and transitional skills to either close in on a BG (sounds like a weird idea, but it actually works quite well - you see someone fishing a knife out of their pocket, at 4 feet, you are going to get stabbed if you try to shoot them; so why not tangle up and control the knife limb?) or unentangle if he closes on you.

All in all I would have to credit each segment of ECQC with opening up new possibilities. The verbal and positional skills I use constantly (especially positioning; daily in fact), and the comfort level I now have with interpersonal violent contact at close distances would, I feel, allow me to prevail and keep a cool head. I now have options that I have tested and know work for me...not things I heard or read about that "should" work.

That's not to say I'm a master or anything like that. Another eye opening thing about the class was it helped show me how practice time should be spent. I will make a thread soon, and you can pop in there to see what I mean.

 

[AOK]

Thank you for the input! I will certainly look forward to your post in the future. I'm all about getting the most out of my training and practice.

Just out of curiosity, I was watching some of their videos on youtube and one thing I noticed was a lack of combatives when doing the 2 on 1 drills. Every 2 on 1 video I have watched it immediately goes into grappling with the first guy then the second guy comes in shortly. Very realistic, no doubt. It appears they were focused on body positioning by keeping a wider base to avoid going to the ground, start getting into their heads to scan the area for additional threats, as well as stacking the assailants as best as possible. While these are important, the individuals get nowhere fast everytime partially due to the lack of combatives based on what I am seeing.

In Krav we do a lot of 2 on 1 work and we do a lot of of the same things except with softening techniques and low risk combatives such as thowing a quick front knee into the goods or thigh, quick kicks into the second assailant's knees while using the first assailant as leverage, quick elbows to the jaw, palm heal strikes (of course these are used when the opportunities present themselves) and the likes rather than just keep spinning around. My question is do they teach you guys to use these options or do they teach you but not allow you to actually strike the assailants? I do appreciate the fact the class is three days long and you can only cram so much into a short period of time so it's possibly unrealistic to work these in.

Obviously I haven't had the opportunity to attend this class so I just want to understand better what it is their focus is on these drills. For all I know maybe the whole point of the drill is to just stay on your feet as long as possible and they eventually introduce combatives later.

 

[Flintknapper]

AOK wrote:

it's not always easy to clear your garment, draw a weapon with a positive grip from concealment while simultaneously trying to make a strong strike to create space.

I need to create space with a strike, proper movement, and body positioning and hopefully put a slight hitch into his OODA loop. My draw starts at the same time I throw out my initial strike and by time it lands I'm a few tenths of a second away from being into a retention position ready to dump rounds into him.

However, I am 100% fine with an exchange of a shot to the ribs and in return have my gun out in the fight ready to dump rounds into him. Yes, it will suck for me but it's going to suck for him even more.

You definitely have the right mindset (practice, responsible for own safety, desire to survive, etc). I do see a potentially deadly thought pattern here though.

I know you recognize the danger, gamble and risk involved in a struggle to retain and deploy your weapon…but I get the sense that your focus is more on quickly getting it out, than strategically getting it out.

The technique/principle you espouse is one that might well work for you in some situations, but in others….would work against you.

Conwict is gently suggesting (rightfully) that you consider training with someone that can show you a broader set of skills. They have learned (usually the hard way) that being a “one trick pony” gets you maimed or killed on the street.

For example: If you constantly train to strike while simultaneously reaching for your weapon you take your strong hand “out of the fight”. There is a TIME to reach for your weapon and a time NOT to.

Rather than “perfect” one technique…thinking it will work for you, better to learn “principles” and apply them as the dynamics dictate.

If I were attacking you with a knife…I would like nothing better than for you take a jab a me with your “weak” hand while reaching for your weapon with your strong hand.

I will immediately close the distance…pin your arm/elbow or otherwise “stall” your draw. At the same time…I can deliver multiple fatal stab wounds. Even IF you manage to get your weapon out and “dump rounds into me”, a mutual kill does you no good, right?

There is more likely going to be a time to fight….before you are able to present your weapon and you’ll need BOTH hands, feet, legs and whatever else you can muster….to get through it.

Knowing how to make that work for you IF it goes to the ground…..is something else you’ll want to learn.

A good instructor (with street smarts) can show you these things. Lots of supposedly good techniques get tossed out the window when applied to real FOF training.

Others…remain good techniques when used at the APPOPRIATE time. Learning WHAT to do….is only half the battle. Knowing WHEN to do it is where most folks lose out.

For example, one of my defenses for a bear hug from behind with my arms pinned to my sides..... I start by basing out and stepping out with my left foot. This basically helps pin the gun between me and the attacker (or the stuffed torso) as well as pins my arm against the gun to a point where he wouldn't be able to grab it.

Nothing wrong with using part of your technique to help protect your weapon…but don’t count on it…since circumstance might not allow you to step away from your strong side.

Basing yourself (dropping your weight so that your attacker must hold it) is a sound technique... but must be done immediately (instinctively) or you will be pulled off balance. Practice it from BOTH sides so you do NOT hesitate.

(Of course depending on how strong the attacker is and where/how you carry your gun, it may not be pinned at all.) I throw hammer fists to the groin and as soon as I feel his grip start to loosen I start to rotate my firearm away from the assailant (or torso) while.

Here….the idea that you can throw hammer fists to the groin….tells me two things:

1. Your arms aren’t really pinned (not at or below the elbow anyway) because it would be impossible to do otherwise.

2. You are putting too much trust in the “groin shot” loosening his grip.

IF you can get a groin “slap” in…..great, use it to distract…in order to get your leg behind his (which you should have done at the same time you “based”). If you accomplish that…you can unbalance your attacker, a much more effective (and likely) disruption.

You are WAY ahead of most folks and I applaud your efforts and dedication.

Now go get the “extra” training that will really take you to the next level.

Good luck and be safe,

Flint.

 

[conw]

AOK, the focus in 2-on-1 evos is definitely on staying mobile, conscious/upright, and managing the 2 BGs verbally or however you can.

I don't want to speak for Craig (southnarc) so I will just give my own best understanding which I have taken away from the classes.

I believe Craig has found that a turnkey combatives type approach is difficult to apply dynamically and would rather have students reacting and making choices. There is no instruction not to hit one another but you ARE wearing groin protection and head protection. You may differ in opinion but it is my feeling that "combatives" are often intended to stop through pain, and ECQC is about preparing for the absolute worst scenarios possible. The FIST helmets and groin protection render much of that hard to apply...very few people can stop someone through striking, when head and groin are covered. This is probably 100% intentional even past the safety reasons, as I think Craig likes for people to use other tactics, ones that tend to work even on people who are not prone to stopping due to pain.

Craig has been heavily influenced by the "aliveness" of MMA and I am pretty sure if he found anything worked consistently in 2 vs 1 evos, he would teach it... he doesn't really teach special 2 vs 1 techniques other than appropriate positioning, verbal, and use of deadly force if the situation merits it.

What you need to know about ECQC is there is a STRONG mental component. It's not like a 2 vs 1 cage match or something. The solo guy (non-BG) must enter the scenario as a law abiding citizen who does not know the intent of the 2 BGs. The BG roleplayers WILL mess with your head - usually they don't just swoop in in an obvious manner, but attempt to engage you verbally. So you need to know the people engaging in 2 vs 1 have not likely previously determined with 100% certainty that both BGs are a serious threat, and may not have any legal standing to apply lethal or perhaps even any force whatsoever.

It's a very tricky, sticky type of problem. The best thing I've seen in 2 vs 1 evos is usually a strong MUC approach (the verbal skills Craig teaches) paired with positioning and moving so that if the guys keep following you, you can establish ill intent. At that point you can (here is a great example of when good legal strategy and good tactics might not be in agreement) place your hand on your gun, ready to draw, with strong verbal commands to stop and back off. If they keep coming you could draw. Do you have the guts to shoot 2 guys approaching you? Do you feel it's a lethal threat? It's awfully hard to justify it mentally, but it's awfully hard to imagine you have a chance against them without lethal force.

And one thing I can tell you about ECQC and Southnarc... if you place shots on those bad guys it will not stop them. You can shoot to slide lock and they will keep coming, like a nightmare. What's your plan then? I argue the best strategy is entanglement, control of weapon bearing limbs, staying upright, staying conscious. That's why he teaches it.

The class is great for reasons other than simple combatives strategies in other words. It really teaches you to think dynamically. And you are not guaranteed to win because there is no single strategy that will cause you to triumph 100% of the time.

 

[AOK]

AOK wrote:



You definitely have the right mindset (practice, responsible for own safety, desire to survive, etc). I do see a potentially deadly thought pattern here though.

I know you recognize the danger, gamble and risk involved in a struggle to retain and deploy your weapon…but I get the sense that your focus is more on quickly getting it out, than strategically getting it out.

The technique/principle you espouse is one that might well work for you in some situations, but in others….would work against you.

I agree 100%. I am aware and have been taught other techniques to maintain retention and keep an assailant primarily away from my firearm while it is still concealed and he hopefully doesn't even know it's there still.

I can see how my post could come across as I think this is THEE way to handle a close quarter attack. Obviously this isn't the case at all and it is equally if not more important to know how to properly assess a situation fast to determine if deadly force is even needed, then put yourself in position to use it if necessary.

Conwict is gently suggesting (rightfully) that you consider training with someone that can show you a broader set of skills. They have learned (usually the hard way) that being a “one trick pony” gets you maimed or killed on the street.

For example: If you constantly train to strike while simultaneously reaching for your weapon you take your strong hand “out of the fight”. There is a TIME to reach for your weapon and a time NOT to.

Rather than “perfect” one technique…thinking it will work for you, better to learn “principles” and apply them as the dynamics dictate.

Agreed. Much of the other things I have learned through Krav and FOF classes that don't include drawing a firearm which is my issue for training on my own. The only time I get actual work on grappling and other techniques that don't involve drawing and lethal force only get worked on during classes. At this time the only thing I do to work on some of these things is visualization.

If I were attacking you with a knife…I would like nothing better than for you take a jab a me with your “weak” hand while reaching for your weapon with your strong hand.

I will immediately close the distance…pin your arm/elbow or otherwise “stall” your draw. At the same time…I can deliver multiple fatal stab wounds. Even IF you manage to get your weapon out and “dump rounds into me”, a mutual kill does you no good, right?

I totally agree with you here. While I don't consider myself proficient, I have taken a couple edged weapon classes as well as have worked a quite a bit on knife defense (and other weapons such as bats, garrote, guns) in Krav class. Without a doubt strategies can drastically change once a weapon is introduced into a scenario and until I get the assailant into a bad position where I can fairly confidentally bring my firearm (and get rounds on him) into the equation it is staying holstered.

[Knowing how to make that work for you IF it goes to the ground…..is something else you’ll want to learn.

You're correct. While I am again not proficient ground survival isn't a new concept to me. In Krav we have spent a considerable amount of time down on the mats. In addition, one of the FOF classes worked on retention once on the mats. Not as as much as I would like but I did have the opportunity to learn some.

The area I have zero experience in is once the gun is out and I am trying to retain it while the assailant is wrestling around on me on the ground. With that said, I certainly understand how important groundwork training is and the likelyhood of a fight or struggle going to the ground. I am also aware of my lack of experience and training for groundwork with a firearm and the need to improve.

[Others…remain good techniques when used at the APPOPRIATE time. Learning WHAT to do….is only half the battle. Knowing WHEN to do it is where most folks lose out.

I couldn't agree with you more.

[Nothing wrong with using part of your technique to help protect your weapon…but don’t count on it…since circumstance might not allow you to step away from your strong side.

Basing yourself (dropping your weight so that your attacker must hold it) is a sound technique... but must be done immediately (instinctively) or you will be pulled off balance. Practice it from BOTH sides so you do NOT hesitate.



Here….the idea that you can throw hammer fists to the groin….tells me two things:

1. Your arms aren’t really pinned (not at or below the elbow anyway) because it would be impossible to do otherwise.

2. You are putting too much trust in the “groin shot” loosening his grip.

IF you can get a groin “slap” in…..great, use it to distract…in order to get your leg behind his (which you should have done at the same time you “based”). If you accomplish that…you can unbalance your attacker, a much more effective (and likely) disruption.

The example I gave is one technique that I have been taught and work on in Krav (and other softening techniques). I agree, the groin shot may not be there. However, unless the assailant is grabbing me really low on my arms (that changes things) in my experience I can easily step out with one foot regardless of how hard he is squeezing me to slightly open up my hips.

As for getting my feet behind his is a last resort for me. We have covered that technique as well but I want to avoid going to the ground if possible. Maybe not indeal in some disiplines but in Krav we really work on staying on our feet as much as possible. If it goes to the ground we train to get back up on our feet ASAP.

You are WAY ahead of most folks and I applaud your efforts and dedication.

Now go get the “extra” training that will really take you to the next level.

Good luck and be safe,

Flint.

Thank you very much for your post and the kind words. I agree with pretty much everything.

I hope my posts doesn't come across as I think a few of these close quarter techniques I work on are the end all be all way to handle a fight or potential fight for that matter. I certainly don't believe that. This is just a way I can work on these specific techniques on my own. However, there are a lot more ways to handle a close encounter and different situations can dictate different responses on our parts. Many of these tactics and techniques I have yet to learn but am eager to do so.

Thanks again.

 

[AOK]

AOK, the focus in 2-on-1 evos is definitely on staying mobile, conscious/upright, and managing the 2 BGs verbally or however you can.

I don't want to speak for Craig (southnarc) so I will just give my own best understanding which I have taken away from the classes.

I believe Craig has found that a turnkey combatives type approach is difficult to apply dynamically and would rather have students reacting and making choices. There is no instruction not to hit one another but you ARE wearing groin protection and head protection. You may differ in opinion but it is my feeling that "combatives" are often intended to stop through pain, and ECQC is about preparing for the absolute worst scenarios possible. The FIST helmets and groin protection render much of that hard to apply...very few people can stop someone through striking, when head and groin are covered. This is probably 100% intentional even past the safety reasons, as I think Craig likes for people to use other tactics, ones that tend to work even on people who are not prone to stopping due to pain.

Craig has been heavily influenced by the "aliveness" of MMA and I am pretty sure if he found anything worked consistently in 2 vs 1 evos, he would teach it... he doesn't really teach special 2 vs 1 techniques other than appropriate positioning, verbal, and use of deadly force if the situation merits it.

What you need to know about ECQC is there is a STRONG mental component. It's not like a 2 vs 1 cage match or something. The solo guy (non-BG) must enter the scenario as a law abiding citizen who does not know the intent of the 2 BGs. The BG roleplayers WILL mess with your head - usually they don't just swoop in in an obvious manner, but attempt to engage you verbally. So you need to know the people engaging in 2 vs 1 have not likely previously determined with 100% certainty that both BGs are a serious threat, and may not have any legal standing to apply lethal or perhaps even any force whatsoever.

It's a very tricky, sticky type of problem. The best thing I've seen in 2 vs 1 evos is usually a strong MUC approach (the verbal skills Craig teaches) paired with positioning and moving so that if the guys keep following you, you can establish ill intent. At that point you can (here is a great example of when good legal strategy and good tactics might not be in agreement) place your hand on your gun, ready to draw, with strong verbal commands to stop and back off. If they keep coming you could draw. Do you have the guts to shoot 2 guys approaching you? Do you feel it's a lethal threat? It's awfully hard to justify it mentally, but it's awfully hard to imagine you have a chance against them without lethal force.

And one thing I can tell you about ECQC and Southnarc... if you place shots on those bad guys it will not stop them. You can shoot to slide lock and they will keep coming, like a nightmare. What's your plan then? I argue the best strategy is entanglement, control of weapon bearing limbs, staying upright, staying conscious. That's why he teaches it.

The class is great for reasons other than simple combatives strategies in other words. It really teaches you to think dynamically. And you are not guaranteed to win because there is no single strategy that will cause you to triumph 100% of the time.

Thank you for taking the time for that explanation!

It definitely looks like a different approach to the problem that I've experienced and on a different level by introducing the mental aspect as well as use of verbage.

Again, I thank you for the time to explain your experiences as well as I sincerely look forward to reading your thread on training.

 

[Bix]

What you need to know about ECQC is there is a STRONG mental component. It's not like a 2 vs 1 cage match or something. The solo guy (non-BG) must enter the scenario as a law abiding citizen who does not know the intent of the 2 BGs. The BG roleplayers WILL mess with your head - usually they don't just swoop in in an obvious manner, but attempt to engage you verbally. So you need to know the people engaging in 2 vs 1 have not likely previously determined with 100% certainty that both BGs are a serious threat, and may not have any legal standing to apply lethal or perhaps even any force whatsoever.

This is a great point that is worth developing a bit, and ties in a little with the theme of this thread. In my class, there were at least one or two evoloutions where a BG roleplayer did not present any sort of threat at all. Inevitably, this role player was able to close distance while the student attempted to process and manage the situation. The tools at this stage are verbalization and positioning, not jab and frontkick. As a student, you can't go into the evo planning to use force/lethal force, because you have no idea how it will develop. It's a great intersection of skill-based and scenario-based FoF.

This mirrors my experience living and working in a large city, where I get approached by unknowns from time to time. While, on it's face it might seem safer and easier, if I fired off a snapkick to the groin every time a wonky dude approached me for change or whatever, my life would quickly become very complicated and unpleasant.