Transfer shipping - a problem

[Jim K]

I keep hearing from dealers about internet dealers/sellers just blind shipping to a dealer in the buyer's area, without getting the recipient's FFL or advising him that a gun is on the way. Some shippers don't even include their own information for his books or the name of the person the gun is intended for.

This kind of thing can cause a dealer a lot of problems, since he can have a gun in his store with its origin unknown and its destination unknown - a serious problem in a compliance inspection.

One dealer told me he is seriously considering starting a new policy. Under state law, anything shipped to any person in the state that was not ordered can be considered a gift and retained. Any more guns he gets with no valid address of origin and no indication of the real recipient, will be considered as unsolicited goods and turned over to BATFE for disposal. He said that he may lose some business that way, but he doesn't need the kind of business that could cost him his license.

Drastic, but the total lack of consideration and the ignorance of the law by some shippers would seem to make it necessary. What say you?

Jim

 

[NavyLCDR]

What say you?

Jim

I say that it is the buyer's responsibility to have the FFL lined up in advance of the purchase and have the FFL's name and shipping address ready to provide to the seller before the purchase is made. It is also the buyer's responsibility to inform the FFL that they purchased a firearm, whom they purchased it from, and to prepare the FFL ahead of time to receive the gun.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I say that it is the buyer's responsibility to have the FFL lined up in advance of the purchase and have the FFL's name and shipping address ready to provide to the seller before the purchase is made. It is also the buyer's responsibility to inform the FFL that they purchased a firearm, whom they purchased it from, and to prepare the FFL ahead of time to receive the gun.

Excellent advice. All of these details need to be worked out ahead of time, and the buyer needs to clearly communicate to the seller exactly what his receiving/transfer FFL needs and how he wants it done.

These sorts of mess ups are one reason why some FFLs won't accept a gun for transfer from an individual and insist that it be shipped by another FFL.

 

[bikemutt]

This is exactly the sort of nonsense I've seen cause two FFLs to quit accepting transfers from non-licencees. I wonder sometimes what has become of common courtesy. Maybe the OP's FFL would consider assessing a surcharge for the trouble assuming he can locate the transferee, let that person go get the fee back from the inconsiderate transferor.

 

[mgkdrgn]

I keep hearing from dealers about internet dealers/sellers just blind shipping to a dealer in the buyer's area, without getting the recipient's FFL or advising him that a gun is on the way. Some shippers don't even include their own information for his books or the name of the person the gun is intended for.

This kind of thing can cause a dealer a lot of problems, since he can have a gun in his store with its origin unknown and its destination unknown - a serious problem in a compliance inspection.

One dealer told me he is seriously considering starting a new policy. Under state law, anything shipped to any person in the state that was not ordered can be considered a gift and retained. Any more guns he gets with no valid address of origin and no indication of the real recipient, will be considered as unsolicited goods and turned over to BATFE for disposal. He said that he may lose some business that way, but he doesn't need the kind of business that could cost him his license.

Drastic, but the total lack of consideration and the ignorance of the law by some shippers would seem to make it necessary. What say you?

Jim

You're "one dealer" is a boob.

If he doesn't want it, just refuse it on delivery and have it go back to the sender.

The sending dealer would not send it if they did not have a copy of his FFL.

(and yes, I am an FFL and do my share of transfers)

 

[Frank Ettin]

...The sending dealer would not send it if they did not have a copy of his FFL...

I would expect an FFL to do things right. The problem seems to come from non-licensees sending the gun to the receiving/transfer dealer. That's legal, but it looks like it gets messed up a lot. And that's one reason why some dealers won't accept a gun for transfer from a non-licensee.

 

[JD0608]

FFL

I am a ffl dealer and do a lot of gun transfers. very seldom do I have a problem with other ffl`s. most of time it`s non ffl`s. All copies of my ffl have a note posted to the bottom that simply states. If you are a dealer please send copy of your ffl with gun. All non ffl must send a copy of a state id usually a drivers license. you would be amazed how many non ffl`s will refused to send any id with the gun. I will not transfer a gun not knowing who it came from. I have to log this info in my books. It makes a easy transfer a headache when myself and my customer have to ask the shipper over and over to send his id..

 

[goon]

Some FFL's require shipping from a dealer. When I've done online transfers, I've always had the dealer lined up in advance of money changing hands.
If a buyer isn't willing to do that and things don't go well for him... well, stupidity has penalties.

 

[MErl]

There is a local FFL that has a posted sign:
"If the shipper does not include their and your contact information inside the box the transfer fee is $50.00"

That is double their normal fee. I understand exactly why they have that up and am glad they do that instead of not accept private transfers.

 

[Jim K]

Part of the problem is that some sites put out a list of dealers they say will accept shipments, without mentioning anything about the buyer getting an FFL copy or anything else. Some shippers don't even include their own name or address or use one that is invalid or incorrect, perhaps because the gun itself is not as claimed and the shipper wants to get rid of it without having to deal with an irate customer.

The problem is that in a BATFE compliance inspection a dealer MUST be able to account for the origin of every gun in his books or in his store. He can't just say that someone unknown sent it to him to hold for someone else unknown. Even some FFL dealers seem not to know how to properly ship guns. Hopefully, this will alert at least some people as to what they need to do to ship a firearm legally and properly.

Hi, mgkdrgn,

How does the dealer know there is no information in the package until he has accepted delivery and opened it? And what if the shipper is not an FFL? Anyone can ship a firearm TO a dealer; it doesn't have to be a dealer.

Jim

 

[MErl]

The problem is that in a BATFE compliance inspection a dealer MUST be able to account for the origin of every gun in his books or in his store. He can't just say that someone unknown sent it to him to hold for someone else unknown.

This brings up a question related to the cancelled 'buyback' in Boulder. Even if they had found a FFL willing to help would they have encountered trouble?
Must a FFL account for where every gun came from or can they enter "anonymous turn in?" I'm sure they must accurately record where every gun goes but is the source as important?

 

[NavyLCDR]

This brings up a question related to the cancelled 'buyback' in Boulder. Even if they had found a FFL willing to help would they have encountered trouble?
Must a FFL account for where every gun came from or can they enter "anonymous turn in?" I'm sure they must accurately record where every gun goes but is the source as important?

The FFL would have to log in their bound book the name and address of the person turning in the gun, so there could be no "anonymous" buyback. This should not be a problem, however, because the anti-gun crowd has been telling us since 1968 that the record keeping requirements imposed by Federal law are harmless.

Also, it is illegal for an FFL to knowingly transfer stolen firearms - and isn't that one of the purposes of these gun buyback programs? To get these "illegal" firearms off the street? I know if I was an FFL there is no way in heck I would facilitate one of these for the secondary reason I wouldn't want the BATFE giving me headaches about it. The primary reason being, of course, I wouldn't support the anti-gun crowd in any part of their agenda of disarming America.

 

[Jim K]

I usually agree with NavyLCDR, but if a police department sold "turn in" guns to a dealer, the dealer would show the department as the source, not the person who turned a gun in. If the gun turned out to be stolen, the PD would be responsible, not the dealer.

Note the NICS check cannot detect a stolen firearm. The information provided by the dealer is about the prospective buyer, not about the gun. The only gun information is whether it is a rifle, shotgun or handgun.

Jim

 

[Deer_Freak]

How many guns does a FFL receive from Non FFL's in a given month? I bet it's less than 10 on a busy month. It sounds like this guy needs to shut the shop down for a week and have a vacation. We all have stuff shipped to us from a variety of vendors and we don't freak out every time someone forgets to dot an i or cross a t.

There are to many people in the gun business that love guns but hate the gun business. If I hated my business that much I would sell out and find something I enjoy doing.

 

[dogtown tom]

Deer_Freak How many guns does a FFL receive from Non FFL's in a given month? I bet it's less than 10 on a busy month.

You would be waaaaaaaay wrong.
June is usually my slowest month and I received eighteen firearms from nonlicensees. Last January it was sixty two.

We all have stuff shipped to us from a variety of vendors and we don't freak out every time someone forgets to dot an i or cross a t.

So how much of that "stuff" results in a fine, inprisonment or at the very least loss of your ability to conduct business if you have mistakes, errors or ommissions in your recordkeeping?

There are to many people in the gun business that love guns but hate the gun business.

I wouldn't say they hate the gun business, they just aren't very good at it.

 

[Frank Ettin]

.... We all have stuff shipped to us from a variety of vendors and we don't freak out every time someone forgets to dot an i or cross a t....

On the other hand, dealers have lost licenses over clerical problems. I'm completely on the side of any FFL who doesn't want to risk his license over a transfer.