I have a friend who asked me an interesting question the other day. He ordered a new pistol, and has been tracking the package. Although he had the FFL fax the license and shipping information, it appears the pistol was shipped directly to him. He asked if it is indeed shipped to him, has be violated any laws? My answer was that I didn't think so. The law requires the shipper to send it to an FFL if it is being shipped across state lines, so he has no problems, but I'm not sure of that answer. Anyone care to opine?
Pistol shipped to wrong person
- Thread starter TX1911fan
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VARifleman
Member
yikes...I'd say have him call his FFL. As long as he hasn't opened it, and takes it to his FFL, he's probably fine.
Obviously not. A person can never be held responsible for someone's else wrongdoing (or simple harmlesss mistake, as in this case). Holding onto the package is a different issue.
Think about all the arrest police could make by sending criminals guns, drugs, and stolen warez. Oh wait, something called entrapment stops that
Think about all the arrest police could make by sending criminals guns, drugs, and stolen warez. Oh wait, something called entrapment stops that
Autolycus
Member
It is unclear, at least to me, if the seller and buyer are within the same state.
Sorry, the seller is in a different state than the buyer. My question is this: does he need to take it in to his FFL anyway when the package is delivered, or can he just hold on to it because it was shipped to him and not to his FFL? I have at least one answer that he indeed does need to have it processed through his FFL when he gets it.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
So actually what you talk about hasn't even happened yet?
If that is the case and the box has not arrived, I would simply refuse the shipment and have the carrier return it to the sending FFL without even touching it.
Call them, tell them you've refused shipment and why.
You have saved them from big trouble and cost yourself nothing.
Texas R has a great point. That really saves the butt of whoever is selling it to him. I would insist on them paying to overnight it to the FFL it should have been sent too.
I am sure that the FFL he intended it ot goto has some sort of paperwork to fill out before he can have the gun, in many states it has to be shipped with a spent round which needs to be turned in to a ballistics lab by the FFL.
I am sure that the FFL he intended it ot goto has some sort of paperwork to fill out before he can have the gun, in many states it has to be shipped with a spent round which needs to be turned in to a ballistics lab by the FFL.
atblis
Member
If
If it is in the same state, and the shipper is not an FFL, then it is fine under Federal law. Particular states may have laws about this, but the Feds can't touch it (no interstate trade leverage). Anytime an FFL becomes involved it instantly becomes federal.
If it is in the same state, and the shipper is not an FFL, then it is fine under Federal law. Particular states may have laws about this, but the Feds can't touch it (no interstate trade leverage). Anytime an FFL becomes involved it instantly becomes federal.
Most of the time handguns are shipped overnight. That means they go on an aircraft, most often interstate regardless of whether the start and end point is in the same state or not. I think that would qualify as interstate commerce. And the common carrier involved is almost certianly primarily regulated under federal law, rather than state law, since most of their trafiic is interstate.
I like the idea of sending it back. You might also be able to get the carrier to deliver it to you i/c/o the ffl.
Beatnik
Member
I'm not convinced that your friend would be the one to get into trouble. At least not massive trouble.
However, if the seller's local SWAT team hasn't broken into the wrong house in a while, they may decide to turn their attention to the firearms dealers - and when they find a record of a transaction that wasn't handled properly, he's going to get shut down forever.
For the dealer's sake, I'd say return it immediately and have it sent to the FFL.
However, if the seller's local SWAT team hasn't broken into the wrong house in a while, they may decide to turn their attention to the firearms dealers - and when they find a record of a transaction that wasn't handled properly, he's going to get shut down forever.
For the dealer's sake, I'd say return it immediately and have it sent to the FFL.
dralarms
Member
If he's lucky it was shipped fed express, all you have to do is tell the driver "I want to redirect to XXXXXXx" and they will take it there instead of giving it to you. This way you never touch the gun until your FFL has "booked" it.
atblis
Member
Hmmm
I understand that argument and agree that it is interesting, but I don't know if that would hold up in a federal court (which is what matters, right?). I am sure the Feds would try their best to use that one. FWIW (not much), the ATF states on their webpage that it is okay to ship to another person in the same state.
I understand that argument and agree that it is interesting, but I don't know if that would hold up in a federal court (which is what matters, right?). I am sure the Feds would try their best to use that one. FWIW (not much), the ATF states on their webpage that it is okay to ship to another person in the same state.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
every time I scroll past this thread, I read it as "Pistol Whipped Wrong Person," roll my eyes, and think "Oh No, another one!" 
Then I read stretchman's response, and realized my reaction was appropriate, even though I had misread the thread title.
C'mon stretch, people judge all of us here, by what you write. People judge all of us by what we all write.
Then I read stretchman's response, and realized my reaction was appropriate, even though I had misread the thread title.
C'mon stretch, people judge all of us here, by what you write. People judge all of us by what we all write.
Futuristic
Member
atblis wrote:
This issue has long since been settled at the Federal level, and I presume in most State Court Jurisdictions.
The very definition of a Common Carrier implies that they are to carry goods for delivery for the public. In doing so, they take all responsibility for where and how the goods get there. And, they are generally waived of most responsibility for meeting the laws of particular places while those goods are in transit. (Note: Exceptions for HazMat, some Medical stuff, and some National Security stuff.)
This means that UPS (for example) doesn't have to worry about being in violation of the law when they drive a truck with a box containing a pistol through Chicago, IL on its way to someone in Green Bay, WI.
The converse also applies: You, as a person who entrusts a package to a Common Carrier, don't have any say, NOR any Responsibility, on where exactly it goes to get there.
For the final example, let's say you are taking properly checked luggage containing a handgun on a flight from Atlanta to Detroit, with a stopover (for argument's sake) in Washington, D.C. If you have to change planes, and the airline has to haul your suitcase (containing a handgun) off of one plane and stuff it in another plane, on the tarmac in the District of Columbia, where unregistered handguns are VERBOTEN, are you in trouble? Did you commit a crime? No. (To finish that example, if your connection is canceled due to weather and they try to give you your suitcase in D.C., you need to REFUSE to accept it and explain why they must maintain control of it.)
Futuristic
This issue has long since been settled at the Federal level, and I presume in most State Court Jurisdictions.
The very definition of a Common Carrier implies that they are to carry goods for delivery for the public. In doing so, they take all responsibility for where and how the goods get there. And, they are generally waived of most responsibility for meeting the laws of particular places while those goods are in transit. (Note: Exceptions for HazMat, some Medical stuff, and some National Security stuff.)
This means that UPS (for example) doesn't have to worry about being in violation of the law when they drive a truck with a box containing a pistol through Chicago, IL on its way to someone in Green Bay, WI.
The converse also applies: You, as a person who entrusts a package to a Common Carrier, don't have any say, NOR any Responsibility, on where exactly it goes to get there.
For the final example, let's say you are taking properly checked luggage containing a handgun on a flight from Atlanta to Detroit, with a stopover (for argument's sake) in Washington, D.C. If you have to change planes, and the airline has to haul your suitcase (containing a handgun) off of one plane and stuff it in another plane, on the tarmac in the District of Columbia, where unregistered handguns are VERBOTEN, are you in trouble? Did you commit a crime? No. (To finish that example, if your connection is canceled due to weather and they try to give you your suitcase in D.C., you need to REFUSE to accept it and explain why they must maintain control of it.)
Futuristic
Take the gun to your FFL the other guy made a freaking mistake. Give it a break Why are you making a federal case out of it. Why post it on the internet Gheshhh IF IF IF IF. PLTTTTTTTT :banghead:
And you wonder why FFL's will not do transfers.
And you wonder why FFL's will not do transfers.
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