Transition to Pistol from Rifle

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Just curious what other people are teaching on this... I've had three formal training classes: Texas Pistol Academy, Chris Grollnek (former Marine Force Recon), and Tac-Pro Shooting Center.

Texas Pistol Academy did not teach transitions at all on their entry level class. They concentrated mainly on basic marksmans ship and use of a sling as support.

Both Chris Grollnek and Tac-Pro Shooting Center taught maintaining control of the rifle (and the muzzle) with the weak hand and using the pistol strong-hand only. Bill Davison at Tac-Pro Shooting Center taught tucking the rifle under the weak arm specifically. One nice advantage of this was it kept good control of the muzzle and it allowed you to still use any flashlights or lasers mounted to the rifle.

However reading comments on transitions, I often see people complaining about getting smacked in uncomfortable places with a loose dangling rifle, which makes me think that some places are teaching just dropping the rifle and going two hands on pistol.

I was curious what the predominant view on this is in the training community?

 

[TexasRifleman]

I was curious what the predominant view on this is in the training community?

At the last class I took here in the DFW area the instructor taught both; just dropping it and weak hand support. We then discussed which we should use.

It seemed to depend a lot on the sling type.

Those of us with the Troy single point found we could just let go while others needed to use the weak hand more often.

It did flop around and I was not particularly fond of just dropping it, so I wound up using my weak hand to control it, but we at least talked about it.

As for what is the general consensus of trainers, I'll be interested to hear.

 

[Steve in PA]

With my shooters I teach pulling the long gun (rifle or shotgun) into the chest with the weak hand. Grip in maintained on the forend and muzzle is controlled. This all happens as the other hand draws to handgun.

Of course if you have a sling you can just let go of the long gun and end up with a two-hand grip on your handgun.

I have no idea why would would tuck the long gun under your weak arm.

Also, never drop the long gun. Why would you? What if the gun is just jammed, or needs a reload but the situation dictates immediately going to your handgun? You've just dropped a more than likely perfectly fine long gun with greater stopping power and range.

 

[hso]

Gomez taught the transition as a weak hand pin of the rifle to the side with the weak hand on the guard.

 

[BOONER]

The way i teach it and have been taught it.
if your primary has failed or run dry. these steps.

right handed shooter

1 to let carbine hang without getting hit in the groin is to roll the carbine ejection port inboard to your chest having the sling trap the butt of the carbine in place and preventing it from faling about.


this places the gun port side trapped to chest and your vertical foregrip out to your left in easy reach to reload.

2. reach down with strong hand grab blaster and and meet support hand and fire as regular.

 

[sacp81170a]

Another technique: if you're strong enough, keep the rifle or shotgun in the weak hand and use it as a vertical brace for the handgun in your strong hand. It's nothing more than bringing your hands together as normal with the exception that you're holding the long arm vertically. Advantage? It provides some degree of cover, which is always better than none. I was taught this as an alternative technique when you're using a rifle or shotgun without a sling or didn't have time to situate your sling properly. Better than just dropping the rifle, which you may need later in the fight if you can get it cleared. You also maintain control of the muzzle and don't have to worry about smacking yourself in any sensitive areas. Try it, you might be surprised how easy it is.

 

[BOONER]

Dont think i would try that while clearing a house. to much to work with and around if your handgun requires a relaod and or malfunction clearing or what about the use of a white light as well. and or hands on is needed to open a door or grab children etc.

and your sling should be set up all ready to proper adjustments even a gi parade sling can be looped over your head to control the weapon if need be in an instant.. your sling should be pre set and ready as well as your other gear.

 

[clt46910]

The sling I use allows me to either drop the long gun, which hangs across my lower chest, upper belly area, or I can push it out of the way under my weak arm or behind my back with my weak arm, while drawing my handgun. I can use both hands with my handgun either way and still keep my long arm with me. I believe it is called a three point sling.

I like this system over the single point sling I had before. I seem to be able to keep control of my long arm better with it.

 

[Bix]

Pat Rogers taught transitions heavily in the carbine class I took. Transition was the immediate action for any stoppage inside of ~25 yards. For single point slings, he showed the technique BOONER describes whereby the support hand rolls the carbine inboard (so that the ejection port is against the chest). This snugs the sling up tight to the body and minimizes the 'flop'. Two hands on the pistol.

 

[BOONER]

Roger that Bix.

I have found it works well with the vickers/vtac/larue 2 points as well.

 

[Jeff White]

I learned the same technique from Pat Rogers as Bix. It works well with both single point and two point slings like the Vickers and it's what I teach.

Jeff

 

[DesertShooter]

Are you talking about the "quick sling transition"?
The way I learned, you hold the long gun in your strong hand, push your weak hand through the sling and move the rifle behind your head, with the butt end somewhat forward. Then, simply drop the long gun onto your back. It should sling diagonally across your back, with the muzzle down....then transition to the handgun. For some reason, this method was easier for me when I was running.

 

[TexasRifleman]

The way I learned, you hold the long gun in your strong hand,

So what are you using to go for your sidearm?

That seems too slow. Maybe if you have time, are under cover etc but during the firefight if you experience a stoppage, I'd think taking the time to move the long gun out of the way that much would get you ded.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the principle.

whereby the support hand rolls the carbine inboard (so that the ejection port is against the chest).

Gonna try that one. I like the sound of that.

 

[BOONER]

TR it works very well........

 

[TexasRifleman]

Also, never drop the long gun. Why would you?

I wasn't talking about dropping it literally, just dropping it and letting the sling have it, with no control of it directly with the weak hand. This seems to be pretty commonly taught as I read all the time about what Bart is describing; "Why is this thing hitting me in.....painful let's say......places. "

Bill Davison at Tac-Pro Shooting Center taught tucking the rifle under the weak arm specifically.

I know he comes highly regarded but that one strikes me as a bit on the goofy side.

Did you feel that was actually a useful and easy to do technique?

 

[Sidewinder6]

Good discussion interested in more

Pics or Vids of this??

 

[BOONER]

Your mileage may very I have tried. trained in and taught almost all of the above, for slings the way i was taught by Pat rogers seams to work the best for me without fighting my kit.

a simple or parade sling works well for me by just bringing it over my head and letting it hang. or if no sling is attached, then i tuck it to my chest with my support hand.

there are no perfect one way.... there are only tools in the tool box and you need to decide which tool is right for your job.

I will try to get video of each posted this week.

 

[sacp81170a]

BOONER:

Dont think i would try that while clearing a house. to much to work with and around if your handgun requires a relaod and or malfunction clearing or what about the use of a white light as well. and or hands on is needed to open a door or grab children etc.

I was taught that as an immediate action drill, when the BG is right in front of you. If you have a malfunction and transition immediately, why wouldn't you clear the malfunction and transition *back* once the immediate danger had passed? I certainly wouldn't continue clearing the house without pausing to get my best weapon back in the fight...

 

[TexasRifleman]

If you have a malfunction and transition immediately, why wouldn't you clear the malfunction and transition *back* once the immediate danger had passed?

I don't think that's the argument. I think the idea of trying to use the, now useless, long gun as some kind of brace is questionable.
Worrying about trying to get it in proper position for some other use rather than just getting it out of your way til the shooting dies down and you can get to cover.

I've never seen anyone advocate just dropping the weapon.

 

[BOONER]

Correct. once the issue has been delt with then get your primary into operation. that is not the question here, that is just plain tactics common sense.

the issue is WHY use the long gun as a brace.? to brace what the strong hand. if obtaing hits on a say 8 inch COM under speed. at 0-7 yds(indoor distances for most homes) then there are bigger issues.... i see no need to brace a handgun with a long gun.

if it works for you great. have you tried it in force on force drills?

 

[sacp81170a]

if it works for you great. have you tried it in force on force drills?

Works fine with sims. Again, not saying other techniques are invalid, I use a Blackhawk single point sling on my duty AR. Just another tool in the box...

Using it as a brace may be the wrong wording. You just hang on to the forearm of the long weapon with the weak hand as you draw and bring your strong hand up to meet it. Quick, no muss, no fuss, and the long weapon in front of you functions as a little extra bit of cover. If you need to ditch it to reload or use a light, well, no extra effort required.

 

[BOONER]

well there yah have it.......

I fully understand i have made the switch to all but one carbine to vickers slings

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I know he comes highly regarded but that one strikes me as a bit on the goofy side. Did you feel that was actually a useful and easy to do technique?

Probably just a bad explanation on my part. Let me try to explain how I execute it (which isn't necessarily the way I was taught it). Keeping the same fighting stance I hold on to the rifle by the forearm with my weak hand while I let go of the rifle grip with my strong hand and reach for the pistol. I draw the pistol high to the armpit and as I start to index towards the target I swing the stock of the rifle over to my weak side; but keeping the same basic stance and holding it by the forearm. As the pistol extends out, instead of planting the stock on my shoulder, I slide it underneath my arm (below the armpit; but above the hip). By this time I am already firing the pistol usually.

This is really one of those things where a few pictures are worth a thousand words. The process sounds awkward to describe; but is very smooth, natural and easy to execute when grasping the forearm. I've found it more awkward when using a vertical grip, since it is a lot harder to manipulate a 16" barrel rifle without removing your hand from the grip (or you change your grip and burn a fraction of a second on the transition).

The idea is that you keep the muzzle pointed in the same direction as your torso (upper body as turret concept). It works with single point slings, some three-points, two-points in a sling-supported shooting position and no sling at all. As a bonus, it also allows you to use the weaponlight on the AR if you have one.

I think the reason that both Davison and Grollnek emphasize muzzle control is that both come from a military background of heavy firing schedules (Royal Marine Commando and USMC Force Recon). Grollnek remarked to me that they had experienced cookoffs during training and I suspect that safety issues probably affected how the military taught that particular process.

Another thing I like about this is that there isn't a strong visual cue that the rifle has gone down. By the time your rifle has dropped to your side, your pistol is already up, on target and firing. So if someone in a force-on-force exercise happens to pop out during the process, he sees a rifle muzzle pointed at him from a shouldered rifle.

I've also practiced rolling the rifle inboard and letting it drop on the sling while going two hands on the pistol. I think this method is a tiny bit faster since you aren't trying to do two things at once (control rifle with weak hand and aim pistol with strong hand); but I find that the arm-tuck method is a lot handier for movement with a single-point sling.

 

[sacp81170a]

One thing this thread brings to mind is the purpose of the transition. Now that I'm gaming this out mentally in a little more detail, I realize the basic drill, however executed, is to bring firepower to bear against a threat with as little lost time as possible. If you run dry or have a weapons malfunction, going to the handgun with no interruption can save your bacon in a tight spot. Now that you've accomplished that, the part I've never practiced comes when you decide to transition back. Given the multiple factors involved, what's a reasonable drill for that procedure? I brought it up in an earlier post without thinking. Holster first and then clear? Attempt to clear/reload with weak hand while strong hand retains handgun? Any thoughts?

 

[BOONER]

"what's a reasonable drill for that procedure? I brought it up in an earlier post without thinking. Holster first and then clear? Attempt to clear/reload with weak hand while strong hand retains handgun? Any thoughts?"



I set up this drill.

I use dummy rounds.

1. set up either a double feed *(my favorite) say 7-10 yds
2 bring rilfe to target press trigger,.
3 sling or/hang carbine in your preferred method
4. transition to handgun
5. fire 2-3 rounds COM or faliure drill or both.
after you have scanned and tac loaded your handgun.
either (per your training policy) take a knee and communicate with your team or partner, clear malfunction. and return to the fight....

set up and do all over again ......... and again and again.