Transporting on Aircraft

[cleardiddion]

So, a recent post by JBP got me thinking:
How would I transport firearms on aircraft?
I'm asking this because I happen to have two new aquisitions from over my Christmas break and would like to take them back. From what I can understand it looks as though I need to have a locking case and that I need to declare it at the airport.
Is that it, or do I need to do a few more steps? And are there any pointers from those who have done it before?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Dave R]

I traveled with a rifle a year ago. I did just what you did. Put it in a locking case, and declare it at the airport. Be there a few minutes early. They'll have to call a TSA rep over to inspect. Adds a few minutes to check in.

My buddy traveled with a rifle earlier in December. Same drill.

 

[kingpin008]

You could always google for the TSA regulations for flying with firearms. Or do a search here, it's been discussed plenty of times in the past.

 

[TAB]

Best thing to do is call the airline your flying on...They will not only be able to tell you the TSA guidlines, but they will be able to advise you on how "they do things" ( IE how much more time you need and etc)

 

[Ed Ames]

I've flown with guns a few times.

Here's what you do:

1. Figure out which airline you'll be flying on.
2. Go to the airline's web page
3. Find the airline's policy on flying with firearms
4. Follow that policy.

You will need:
1. A locking (real, non-TSA, lock by preference) hard sided gun case
2. A suitcase (if flying with clothes, knives, ammo, etc) note: If the firearms being transported are pistols you may wish to place the locking hard sided gun case inside the suitcase. If so, the suitcase will need to be large enough to hold the gun case.

Note that ammo in the hard-sided gun case is a bad thing so be careful that the gun case itself is an ammo-free zone. Some airlines have rules about ammo being in commercial boxes, TSA sets some rules about it being boxed as well, all airlines have limits as to how many guns/pounds of ammo you can bring along. That's where the airline web page comes into play.

Every time I've flown (mostly back and forth between California and Texas) it was simply a matter of going to the ticket counter to check my bags and saying "this bag contains an unloaded firearm." Sometimes they'll hand you a sheet of paper to sign and toss into the gun case. I then carried my bags over to the normal TSA screening area and said "this case has a firearm." They asked if it was unloaded ("yes") and then X-rayed everything and said "you are good to go." No hassle at all.

The only time my hard gun case has been unlocked in an airport was when I was putting in the sheet of paper saying the gun was unloaded into the case. The TSA screeners have never wanted to look in the cases or even touch the keys.

It seems weird the first time but it's easy. They deal with it every day -- many people fly with firearms.

 

[Slugless]

It's pretty easy.

*Lockable case
*2 firearms max
*Unloaded
*Ammo separate
*Ammo in original packaging (there are other options, can't remember them, read the regs
*Declare it to airline
*Airline will escort you to TSA
*TSA will inspect, either manually or by Xray.

I allow an extra 30 min for this but it never takes this long.

I've done a half dozen round trips, i.e. a dozen times through the process. No problems.

Like the other posters said, check w/TSA & airline.

 

[Ed Ames]

Oh, and don't expect a uniform treatment. As you can see from this thread there are inconsistencies... some people have been escorted to the TSA, others have had the TSA come to the check-in counter, I haven't had either of those... other than telling people there was a firearm and waiting for the bag to be cleared (instead of giving it to the screeners and walking off) flying with firearms was exactly like flying without.

Oh, and it isn't 2 firearms max. American Airlines allows 3 long guns or 5 pistols/revolvers. Another airline may not allow ANY. That's why you must check the specific airline web page.

 

[saddenedcitizen]

Ok - I give up
What's with the 'ammo separate' statements ??
Never had that issue -
ammo in factory container INSIDE the Pelican case with both pistols.
Never a question, comment or anything from TSA
What am I missing here ??

 

[Slugless]

I didn't check continental's website, my memory told me 2 firearms and ammo separate. Maybe that used to be the case, maybe because I use 2 firearm capacity containers w/ little room for ammo.

Don't give up! Ed's right - check the airline website.

Continental says up to 5 firearms + ammo can be in the same case.

 

[Cap'n]

Newark, NJ

Not sure where you're traveling, but I've heard some real horror stories associated with Newark, NJ airport and firearms EVENTHOUGH the LAW-ABIDING travelers complied completely with Federal / TA reporting requirements. Despite that, the State of NJ has been known to arrest people and incarcerate them for a few days until they can arrange bail. Then of course there are subsequent court proceedings. Even less fun when you're from out-of-state.

Either the NRA or a NJ shooting organization (think it's the latter) have at least one lawsuit against NJ about this.

I live in TX. I have family in NJ, and I hate having to disarm myself to visit them since there's no reciprocity for my CCW permit in NJ . Fortunately, NJ has outlawed the death penalty, so I'm sure the Bad Guys will reciprocate, and we'll all live together in increased harmony.

 

[bogie]

I put it in the back seat, on the floor, with stuff like sleeping bags, etc...

 

[Ed Ames]

Actually, looking at the TSA website ammo in the hard case is OK so long as it is in a paper/wood/plastic/metal/fully enclosed magazine type case.

Dunno why I thought it wasn't. Maybe it was one airline and I figured it would save trouble for me in the long run. Maybe I was just wrong.

 

[GHF]

Traveling With A Gun

Having traveled a number of times, here's how I go at it:

1. Put the unloaded weapon(s) in a lockable hard-sided case with locks only you have the keys to open. TSA locks are not allowed.
2. Check the airline(s) you are flying on:
   • Determine if the ammo MUST be in boxes OR can fly in loaded magazines.
   • If loaded magazines are permitted, make sure the pouches fully cover the magazines.
   • The round from the pipe(s) must be in a box, not loose.
3. Secure and protect magazines and ammunition boxes from possible damage.
4. Put the lockable hard-sided case with the weapon and the ammo/magazines into a cheap, non-descript bag - with clear labeling outside and inside - for checking in. The labeling should be limited to:
   • Your Name
   • Your Cell Phone - if you have one, or your home phone if you do not
   • Your personal email address - if you have one
   • NO ADDRESSES, JOB TITLES, ORGANIZATIONS SHOULD BE INDICATED
5. Other stuff - like shampoo, mouthwash, toothpaste, etc, could be in this checked bag also.
6. Check this non-descript bag at the airport. Have the rules for the airline in hand.
7. Make sure you have the keys to the lockable hard-sided case with you and you alone (Per Federal Regulations § 1540.111 Carriage of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries by individuals - http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...v8&view=text&node=49:9.1.3.5.9.2.10.6&idno=49) at all times. You will have to open the lockable hard-side case to demonstrate to the airline that the weapon(s) are not loaded at check in, and if the TSA wants to see.
8. Have the serial number(s) and descriptions of your weapons on you, so if they "disappear" you can report the loss/theft to the airline, the FAA Regional office, and the ATF Regional Office immediately.

Other points to ponder:

1. Can you possess the weapon at all your stops.
2. Where can you carry and how at all your stops. Check www.handgunlaw.us.
3. What are the deadly force rules in each state you are visiting. Check www.handgunlaw.us.
4. Have a copy of the Don Young Transportation Letter on hand - http://www.anjrpc.org/DefendingYourRights/us letter.pdf. This covers changing methods of travel - car to plane to car - in a single journey.

 

[Vector]

My experiences have all been good and simple. I inform the agent I am checking a bag with a firearm. They typically ask to see it (sometimes in a private booth, others right there at the ticket counter) and I show them it is unloaded, and in a locking case. The locking case can actually be the plastic container the gun came in provided you can put a lock through the handle (or it is configured in a way as to lock it). The ammo must be separate from the firearm according to certain airlines policies. Typically TSA has not been called or involved, however in Hawaii they did supervise the procedure noted above. Then they tag your bag, you lock the firearm in the case, and off you go.

.

 

[saddenedcitizen]

GHF,
'TSA locks are not allowed' ?? Where'd you get that one ??
Simply isn't true 'cause that's ALL I have ever used.
Reason is simple - if, for whatever reason, your bag is inspected again,
( I've had it happen once - note inside stating the bag had been inspected again ), goes through another scanner at a connection, dog 'alerts' on it, whatever, and TSA cannot open the bag, they WILL break the locks to get inside at which point, you bag continues on its merry journey UNLOCKED !!

 

[Ed Ames]

Per federal regulations you, as the passenger, are supposed to retain sole and complete control of the keys to the gun case. Using a TSA lock is relinquishing control and therefore technically in violation of 49 CFR 1540.111 which says "(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination."

You probably won't be prosecuted but you are breaking the law to use TSA locks.

The TSA won't bust open your gun cases because they don't like the locks. They'll call/page/roust you out of the airplane at gunpoint if they need to but they won't bust the locks.

They may bust the locks on normal suitcases. This information is specific to gun cases.

 

[cleardiddion]

I'm wondering:
If I got a case with intergrated locks would that be ok?
Or would I have to get another set?

 

[Ed Ames]

Built in locks are fine.

E.g.

 

[saddenedcitizen]

Ed Ames
'They'll call/page/roust you out of the airplane at gunpoint if they need to but they won't bust the locks.'
IF they can find you - plane already left gate/airport etc. They won't waste
a lot of time looking.
I know what the regs say but regs written by breauacrats are often different from reality.
Mine have been 'reinspected' at least once that I know of - where or when it happened, I have no idea.
'They may bust the locks on normal suitcases. This information is specific to gun cases.'
Surely you jest !!
'Sorry guys, we can't break into this one 'cause it looks like a gun case'
Right.
Mine doesn't look like a gun case at all - just a Pelican which could contain almost anything one wishes to protect.
If they will break into 'regular luggage' almost without hesitation, what on earth would make you think that if an animal or one of their new scanners detected 'explosives' that they would hesitate for an instant ??

 

[Ed Ames]

Do what you want -- it probably won't get you arrested. The law (written by your elected representatives) requires you to retain exclusive control of the keys/combos.

If the plane has already left the airport chances are the bags have already been screened. They usually try their best to keep the bags on the same plane as their owners though they don't always succeed.

They don't need to open your bag to see that there is a gun present. They have x-ray machines that allow them to see inside your luggage well enough to identify a firearm. If they see a real lock they will x-ray the bags, see the gun, and say "this is a gun case (because it is a locked case with a gun), it is locked as required by federal law, let it pass."

If they see a TSA lock they can legitimately say, "that can't be a gun case, I'll open it up... oh **** that's a gun! (is anyone watching?)"

I've flown with pelican cases with big old non-TSA padlocks looped through each lock point. I've also flown with smaller hard-sided cases (e.g. small pelican cases) with the biggest padlock I could fit on the case inside soft-sided luggage that was locked with TSA locks. I've even flown with a small unlocked gun case inside a pelican case that mostly held camera equipment and just a big old padlock on the pelican case. I've never had any of the padlocked cases opened by the TSA. I can't recall any stories of a properly (non-TSA) locked gun cases being forced open by the TSA without their owners present. The TSA deals with legally locked gun cases every day and they don't just instantly bust out the screwdriver.

Again, they do the initial screening while you are present. After that...if you have already boarded they know exactly where you are. If they decide to re-screen on a connecting flight they can page you. Most of the time they can do a complete screen for a known danger with their X-ray machine alone.

That's the part I find funny. When I flew with unlocked luggage it was *always* opened and checked by someone. I have yet to have the TSA even open any bag of mine that contained a gun. I hand it to them saying "this bag contains an unloaded firearm", they x-ray it, and we're done. Maybe my next flight will be different but every time so far has been pretty much a non-event.

So... IMO it's better to follow the law in this...case.

 

[saddenedcitizen]

'I hand it to them saying "this bag contains an unloaded firearm", they x-ray it, and we're done.'
I don't know what airport you fly in/out of but THAT has NEVER been my experience.
The TSA people MUST SEE the firearm and verify it's unloaded - to do that the case HAS to be opened. Have had it done in the TSA 'area' and had it done at the check in counter ( by a TSA rep called over for the process ) but NEVER have I just said 'there's an unloaded firearm in this bag' and then be done with it. In one instance, the case, Pelican and far larger than actually needed ( the only one I own ) was gone through to the point of almost removing ALL of the foam inside it apparently to verify that there wasn't something else buried deeper !!!
And didn't you overlook that little item about a card ( their form/card ) with your name & address on it that HAS to be INSIDE the 'box' with the firearm
in it ??
Sounds like we have two ENTIRELY different experiences/airports/sets of personnell !!!!

 

[Ed Ames]

Yeah, as I said, don't expect anything to be consistent.

I've flown through a few airports, both class B and class C, mostly in and out of California but a few other places as well, and mostly in the last year or two. The only time I've ever unlocked the gun case while inside the airport was one time when the airline (not TSA) wanted a written statement that the gun was unloaded to be placed in the box. I think that's the sheet you are talking about. I filled it out, unlocked the case, cracked it open enough to toss the sheet in (never opened the case enough for anyone else to see in), locked everything back up, and that was that. That sheet isn't required by some airlines and even on a given airline it isn't always asked for. The law says you must certify orally or in writing to the airline that the gun is unloaded. Telling the person at the check-in counter fulfills that obligation unless the person wants a written certification. Airline's choice.

TSA people don't need to see the firearm to verify it's unloaded. Nobody needs to see the gun. You just need to certify that it's unloaded. The TSA will verify your certification/that the gun is unloaded because if they catch you lying that's a criminal charge for you and they like that (makes their numbers look better) but they can check with an X-ray machine as well as with a visual inspection.

I even went so far as to offer the TSA guys the keys one of the first times (when I was still nervous about the whole thing) and the screener's response was "I don't want that... just wait here while we x-ray the bag and if we need anything we'll call you." A few minutes later the guy waved me on my way.


On the destination side, so far I've always just gone to the carrousel and eventualy my gun case (or bag with gun case inside) has popped out.

Does that mean that my next experience, or your experience, will be anything like that? No... I'm only reporting what I've encountered. I actualy expected the CA side to be a lot worse and now that I think about it the time I was required to fill out that little sheet was one time when flying out of CA but in any case it hasn't been much of anything out of the ordinary.

I should point out that I've been flying with fairly run-of-the-mill handguns (that were legal in both locations... no full-cap mags in CA or anything silly) and I have been careful to do things like seperate ammo and guns clearly. Different bags usually. One flight did have a fairly empty pelican case... I have a bunch of pelican cases but one of my favorite is the 1510... if I'm not carrying a gun I can use it as a carry on bag and if I buy a gun as I'm traveling (C&R license) I can slap some padlocks on the outside and check it as a pistol case on the way back. It also has wheels and works fairly well as a roll-around case. Thumbs up on the 1510.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I don't know what airport you fly in/out of but THAT has NEVER been my experience.
The TSA people MUST SEE the firearm and verify it's unloaded - to do that the case HAS to be opened.

I don't know what YOU are talking about, but I've flown with firearms a zillion times and never ever been asked by TSA to show it's unloaded. It's not in their published procedures either.

From the TSA webpage, going against many of the things you've posted here:

You must declare all firearms to the airline during the ticket counter check-in process.
The firearm must be unloaded.
The firearm must be in a hard-sided container.
The container must be locked.
We recommend that you provide the key or combination to the security officer if he or she needs to open the container. You should remain present during screening to take the key back after the container is cleared. If you are not present and the security officer must open the container, we or the airline will make a reasonable attempt to contact you. If we can't contact you, the container will not be placed on the plane. Federal regulations prohibit unlocked gun cases (or cases with broken locks) on aircraft.

So, they DO NOT need to see that the firearm is unloaded.
They DO NOT get to keep the key, and TSA locks would be a very bad idea.
They DO NOT place an unlocked firearm case on a plane.

You also said:

And didn't you overlook that little item about a card ( their form/card ) with your name & address on it that HAS to be INSIDE the 'box' with the firearm

That is not the requirement either, at least not on Southwest, American, United, Delta or Continental. I've flown on all those and the only information on the card is name, flight number, date and signature for those airlines. Never ever seen anything about address, nor would I be likely to give that frankly.

Ok - I give up
What's with the 'ammo separate' statements ??
Never had that issue -
ammo in factory container INSIDE the Pelican case with both pistols.
Never a question, comment or anything from TSA
What am I missing here ??

American, Southwest and United specifically do not allow ammo and firearm in the same case, though a handgun case can be inside a regular suitcase with ammo. TSA doesn't care but the airline rules are pretty clear on it.

 

[saddenedcitizen]

let's start at the bottom


'*** Southwest *** specifically do not allow ammo and firearm in the same case, though a handgun case can be inside a regular suitcase with ammo.

Horse pucky.

Southwest ( Love Field, Spokane, Austin ) sure as h*** did/do allow ammo in the same case with no problem !!!!!!

Keep in mine that Southwest, American, Continental, American, United, on and on are NOT the one's 'inspecting' your luggage.

'And didn't you overlook that little item about a card ...'

'That is not the requirement either, at least not on Southwest'
Again - horse pucky.

Like to see you try it WITHOUT doing that !!!!!!!!!!

'but I've flown with firearms a zillion times'
Somehow I doubt that'

Sounds like at least two individuals who have read a lot but never actually
DONE it !!
My experiences have been quite consistent and agree with many other threads on this site

 

[cleardiddion]

Alright, I think I finally got all that I think I need:
1 Rifle
1 Shotgun
2 gun locking case from Wally World with four latches and four intergrated locks
A checkup on the Delta Airlines website (http://www.delta.com/traveling_chec...aggage/fragile_bulky/sporting_goods/index.jsp)

Anything else that I really need?

And thanks for all the the great advice guys, really appreciate this since this will be the first time I will be flying with firearms.