Travel Warning: Australia

[dev_null]

Jim: Yeah, she knows that (about DC), we've discussed it, and the reasons. Like I said, she agrees with the line of thought, she just was commenting on the holes in Aussie Wheels' reasoning.

From what I've seen, however, the stats on the UK are much more compelling: the ever-increasing restrictions do seem to be matched by ever-increasing crime rates.

 

[Rockrivr1]

I have to agree with Field70. I was in Sydney back in the early 80s during a port visit when I was in the Navy. It was a real friendly place and I had a great time when there. Some of the locals even invited us to thier houses for dinner.

Not sure what to think about this post. We hung out in some pretty seedy places without any problems. Of course, there was 4000 squids running around the area.

 

[Rebar]

In other words, when you can't deal with the argument, go for name-calling. Brilliant refutation. In fact, she is is a moderate Libertarian and is definitely none of the above.

Can't handle the argument? I've heard the same drivel a thousand times. "When these knuckle-draggers get a gun, they'll shoot everyone they see!" How many of us have heard this from liberal/leftist elitists? I didn't call her "names", I correctly labeled her for what she is. If she doesn't like the label, then she needs to change her thinking.

And I call a big BS on her supposed "libertarianism". Seems like when a leftist wants to spread their vile propaganda, they think disguising themselves as a libertarian will give them credibility. But no libertarian would fear giving law-abiding citizens arms.

Let me state that again:
No libertarian would fear giving law-abiding citizens arms.
Compare that to:

I know that holding a gun gives me a sense of power, which make me fearful of giving that right to everyone, considering how incredibly bloody stupid most of the population really is and little control they have over their impulses.

I stand by my previous post. She is clearly anti-RKBA. She thinks we the people are "incredibly bloody stupid" and "little control they have over their impulses". If she isn't a statist, elitist, small-minded, anti-freedom nitwit, then no one is.

 

[Stand_Watie]

She thinks we the people are "incredibly bloody stupid" and "little control they have over their impulses". If she isn't a statist, elitist, small-minded, anti-freedom nitwit, then no one is.

Perhaps she just thinks Australians are "incredibly bloody stupid". Could you ask her for us Dev-Null?

I certainly have to say that if their increasingly anti-freedom governments are any indicator of their general populace I'd have to agree with her (present company excepted of course). Way too many Americans too, for that matter.

 

[Radagast]

I've met Wheels on more than one occasion, I don't buy into his 'Don't come to Oz' theory, but Sydney has certainly changed over the last 10 years, not for the better. From press reports most of the spectacular violent crime comes from a small section of the immigrant population, mainly muslim Lebanese, with a little from the Vietnamese thrown in. Most of the Anglo gangsters of a similar mind set killed themselves off in gang wars during the 80s and 90s. Nature abhores a vacuum so we have new replacements. A week rarely goes by without some form of shooting in a public place, but with a population of close to 4 million in our city,spread over an area of 3000 square kilometes that's not a huge statistic.

Crime is not the reason I support firearms ownership, although it is the purpose most would give for owning a gun. A push has begun in the media to legalise torture of 'terrorist suspects'. Australian citizens have been held as 'illegal immigrants' and then deported. Legislation to allow detention without trial has already been passed. Legislation is pending to remove the rights of those deemed to be 'mentally ill'. The Federal Govt is now pushing to effectively ban importation of new firearms. And so it goes. The frog is definitely in the pot.

OZ is still a lovely place to visit. I don't know what it will be like in ten years.

Ken

 

[Iain]

Ok, as a resident of one of the two countries being talked about in this country I'd like to point out that you could come to England and if you practiced a certain amount of common sense (like you have to anywhere in the world) you'd be fine.

I appreciate the argument about not being given the implements of self-defence, I understand your argument there.

But, neither England or Australia is anything like South Africa even, and I'd be happy to go to several places there. I tend to think that it is a bit of a shame that people would write off potential holiday destinations through nothing more than overblown fear.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

I hate to insert facts into this debate, but...

---

(http://www.nationmaster.com/)

It looks like Australia has slightly more murder and slightly less assault than its neighbor New Zealand. And each pales compared to the good old USA.

Florida, a carry permit paradise, has a murder rate of .054 per 1000, higher than AU, NZ and the USA as a whole.

Wisconsin, a no-issue state, has a murder rate of .033, still higher than AU and NZ, but lower than Florida.

(http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/03cius.htm)

Perhaps there are other factors at work here?

The lesson here is that perception is not the same thing as reality. For example, if you pay attention, you'll see there are a lot more assault and murder stories on the local news in February, May and November. Are they dangerous months? Naw. But they are Nielson/Arbitron "Sweeps" months.

I would like to see per-capita robbery, assault and murder graphs for AU and NZ for the las 20 years. That might be informative.

All of the above notwithstanding, I'd rather visit a country where I could be armed, but I'd guess there are very few that allow foreigners to carry.

 

[Dannyboy]

I spent a couple weeks in Sydney in 98 and I felt safer there than any time I've been to New York or Philly. It may not be the safest place in the world but it's still a great city. The cleanest city I've ever seen. I just can't wait to go back.

 

[dev_null]

Rebar, I'm not going to turn this into a p***ing contest. You seized on the one off-the-cuff emotional statement in a sea of facts, a statement I have already said was an initial reaction that she is interested in learning more about, and you have conveniently ignored all of the factual portion of her remarks, which, I see, are supported not only by other posters here but by the hard facts in Matt's post.

FWIW, Stand Watie picked up on the (unstated) fact that she was in fact talking about her fellow Joe Sixpack types in Oz -- not that I think that makes a difference. I've already "called her" on the remark myself.

So have it your way. She's whatever you say she is, if that makes you feel better.

None of which is germane the point that Aussie Wheels' post is full of rubbish that is as inaccurate, misleading, and emotionally leading as the stuff we see from the Brady Bunch and other gun grabbers, all meant to intimidate the reader into an emotional reaction.

- 0 -

 

[Rebar]

The right to keep and bear arms is NOT DEPENDENT on crime and it's statistics. She could be 100% right on the crime situation, it's completely irrelivent. The fact is she's an anti-freedom bigot, as her statement, emotional or not, clearly illustrates:

which make me fearful of giving that right to everyone

Who is she, that she can "give" rights to anyone? Or is she refering to the government? Rights are inalienable, you are born with rights, the government or elitist busybodies can only punish you for exercising them. The Australian government has decided to strip the natural right of possessing arms from the people. Why it did, or the result of that, does not change the truth, which is it's treating it's people as serfs, as unfree people. She thinks that's just dandy, because, of course, the people are "too stupid".

If they're too stupid and impulsive to have the right to possess arms, maybe they're too stupid to have other rights as well. Like voting, or choosing their own jobs, or travelling without permission. Hey, why not have giant collective farms and factories, where the "smart" people, like your friend, can supervise the "stupid" and "impulsive" proles? Now that they don't have the means of resistance, the government is halfway there!

 

[dev_null]

Whatever. No matter how much you keep spanking it, that horse is gonna stay dead. I've already said I called her on it and that she wants to learn more from me on the issue. Doesn't get any clearer than that, Einstein. Now either discuss the issue that is the topic of this thread, or pat yourself on the back for being so much smarter than someone you've never met, but get over yourself and move on. I'm done.

 

[FRIENDLY]

Dangerous Australia

Every country has dangerous animals and we have our fair share blue ring octupus snakes spiders dingoes crocodiles etc and we also have some no-go areas as ANY big city in any country has,especially if you are a tourist and stand out.I seem to remember Miami I think it was that the scum specifically targeted tourists driving marked rental cars. Also we seem to have more than our fair share of very bad politicians, please tell me what country has only good ones.All in all come you will be welcome just remember the newspapers and TV only report bad news because it sells, the usual good news isnt reported because they dont think it will

 

[Psssniper]

Vizzini: "Not remotely, because Iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you"

Man in Black: "Truly you have a dizzying intellect"

Vizzini: "Wait till I get going"

All quotes from the movie "Princess Bride"

 

[natedog]

“...the police cannot be everywhere. If you’ve been raped, you’ll get over it. Just be thankful you weren’t murderedâ€.

 

[fallingblock]

As a citizen of all three nations being compared here....

Let me just say that, as a devotee of warm weather,
IMHO Australia has by far the nicest cimate of the three.

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"Australia's not a paradise but it's a really good place. That's why so many New Zealanders come here"
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Well, mainly Kiwis come to Oz because they can find a job and make more money (and keep more of it) than they can in N.Z.. And the winters are not so harsh over most of Australia as they are in N.Z..

The retired kiwis come mostly for the improved climate.

I make it a rule not to hang out in cities any more than I absolutely have to, but, having visited all of Australia's major cities, it's obvious that any of them FAR surpass Washington D.C. as a place to live.

Even Canberra, with its concentration of deranged politicians, has nothing like the violence of D.C..

However, there is no doubt that Australian cities are suffering from more crime of a violent nature than previously. Drugs and gang rivalry are responsible for much of the increase in criminal activity.

Also, the point to be made with the "Stealbacks" initiated by the Howard government is that they have had no positive effect on the violent crime rate in Australia. None whatsoever. Millions of tax dollars squandered and over 600,000 firearms destroyed with nothing to show for it but a lot of persecuted lawful gun owners and a misinformed public.

As for Australia's 'dangerous animals', I live in an area where the ratio of venemous/ non-venomous snakes is quite high.

I do see venomous snakes from time to time. They do not terrorize me.

In central Oz, I am in far greater danger of being mugged by a drunken/violent Aboriginal than of being snake-bitten.

The same applies to crocodile attacks, which are not that uncommon in the north of the N.T..

Don't do stupid things, and the crocs won't have a chance to attack you.

Swimming in any waterway with connection to saltwater or camping on the banks of a stream constitutes stupid behaviour in crocodile country.

So, yeah, Aussie Wheels....tone it down a bit, please.

 

[Aussie Wheels]

In response to Dev Nul, it should be remembered that the Australian Institute of Criminology is a Government Department, which mostly put the data in a form which suits Government agenda. E.g. in early 2003, in a "leak" to the Murdoch Press, they announced, and the headlines read, "Gun Murders drop by 25%". It was only after the full details were available that Gun Rights groups were able to point out that in fact, Murders were up 20% in the previous year!! Yes, murderers had mostly chosen knives and fists, instead of guns, but the "25% reduction", was of a total which had been much more than previous year!!
I would also refer you to the comprehensive report carried out by British Home Office criminologist, Patrica Mayhew, on loan to A.I.C. A summary of her findings appeared in The Bulletin, Feb. 4, 2003 stated, in part,
"Australia's crime rate is rising and is out of step with the rest of the western world."
You might like to also check with International Crime Victims Survey, (UN sponsored) which stated, "There were 145,420 crimes of violence in Australia in 1996. By 2002 the figure had grown to 198,722 and 80% were assaults"
(of the many reasons why the murder rate has not followed the assault rate, is most people now have mobile phones, so can get medical help much quicker, and that medical technology is saving lives which in past may have been lost).
As for toy guns; if your kids have them, hang onto them, as they are now prohibited from sale. (follows report from Melbourne Newspaper... similar toy gun bans have recently been brought in in NSW...)

"Dangerous toys to have life as garden furniture By Bridie Smith Consumer Affairs Reporter May 17, 2005

Thousands of illegal toy guns seized in the state's biggest ever haul will be destroyed and remodelled into garden furniture and bollards - a first, according to the State Government.
Around 7500 toy guns were seized by Consumer Affairs Victoria during a blitz on a Moorabbin warehouse in March this year.
The guns, which have been on the banned toy list at Consumer Affairs Victoria since 2002, were considered dangerous because the gun could fire projectiles other than the rubber bullets supplied. Product safety testing by Consumer Affairs Victoria found that the gun could fire everything from nails to pencils.
Consumer Affairs Minister Marsha Thomson said none of the seized toys had made it to retail shelves.
"Had they made it onto the shelves of retail outlets and into the hands of young children, the potential for a horrific accident would have been extreme," Ms Thomson said.
Ms Thomson said the toy guns were "extremely dangerous" and could cause blindness to a child or adult is misused. Some of the guns have already been crushed in preparation for recycling.
The importer of the toy guns, Sunlight Trading, was successfully prosecuted and fined for breaches of the Fair Trading Act.
BANNED TOYS
- Pop Gun: A spring-loaded pop gun designed to fire corks or hollow plastic bullets but can discharge dangerous items.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Dangerous-toys-to-have-life-as-garden-furniture/2005/05/16/1116095905941.html"

The safest time to be in Australia was the decade 1945/55. Homicide rate was less than 1.0/100,000 and Firearm Homicide rate less than 0.3/100,000. That was when most people had guns and there were virtually no "Tough Gun Laws".
The comparison with New Zealand is that it gives a very good Control Group, with similar Socio-economic and cultural background, gun shops in every town, and laws which concentrate on criminals, rather than the instrument of the crime.

 

[Aussie Wheels]

To: Dev Null. Have just re-read your initial posting and I see it is from your friend in Australia. Sorry I didn't see it at first, but hope you will pass my response onto her. The quotes I gave are directly from AIC "Australian Crime. Facts and figures 2004". Note that I have been trying to get figures from AIC on kidnapping, as I had heard from a police contact that it had about doubled in the past couple of years, usually associated with Asian Gangs. For some reason AIC don't report on kidnapping!
Also please ask her how easy is it for her to go shooting in Australia? Perhaps she finds it impossible to own a gun and/or try shooting in Oz. and for that reason she wants to go shooting when she goes to USA. I suggest she phone Firearms Registry on 1300362562 to make arrangements to get into shooting.
To: Fallingblock. G'day mate... Didn't mean to stir up so much dust, but other groups like SSAA put out lots of statistics, graphs etc., which can make peoples eyes glaze over. I wanted to make this more personal. I had been hunting whitetail in Canada with person concerned and he had been hunting/fishing/wandering in NZ for years. Always found the people open, friendly and helpful. His impressions about Australia led me to put the original article together. Distrust of each other and of the police, made me do a bit more thinking on the general Oz. condition. He was amazed to find we weren't allowed to own semi-automatic 22s, or shotties, like you still can in NZ.

 

[dev_null]

AW: Thanks for the civil reply. I'll pass your comments on.

Cheers,

- 0 -

 

[geojap]

I have lived in other countries for a while (Europe, 11 years) and travelled to three other continents besides North America. I've never been to Australia, but I've seen this sort of irrational description of foreign countries before and I don't support it. I am a 100% supporter of the RKBA. True, Australians don't have our freedoms with firearms, and that sucks.

But, their society is not going down the drain as this article implies. Everyone who has shared their experience has stated the country seemed hospitable and fine, not unaccomodating and deteriorating. 400 murders a year in the whole of Australia is paltry compared to what we experience in just one of our major cities. The RKBA is extremely important (to me). However, that cannot be the only aspect of a society that you judge it by. Being myopic is very dangeous. I find this story to be very sensationalistic.

I hear Americans talk about Europe, Mexico and Central America like the people living there are Neanderthals. That is just not the case. In fact, most Americans won't admit it or don't know it, but many European countries have a higher standard of living than the US. The statistics on infant mortality, life expectancy, literacy rates, percentage of people with health insurance, quality of public infrastructure, average education level, etc., are all better in countries like Singapore, Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Finnland, Belgium, Holland, etc. I do not think this characterization of Australia is accurate at all. I'm not USA bashing either, I'm just being fair and calling it like I see it.

 

[richyoung]

but many European countries have a higher standard of living than the US. The statistics on infant mortality, life expectancy, literacy rates, percentage of people with health insurance, quality of public infrastructure, average education level, etc., are all better in countries like Singapore, Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Finnland, Belgium, Holland, etc.

Gee none of THOSE countries are currently being flooded by millions of illegal immigrants from a neighboring third-world country - THINK that might adversly impact the "health insurance" and "infant mortality" numbers? BTW the UN says that the U.S ranked ABOVE Switzerland, Finland, and Japan in 2004. Not to mention a little thing called "freedom" that doesn't seem to make it into the index factors -

 

[fallingblock]

No worries, AW....I realise it's easy to get wound-up over what's happening to Oz

Good point about the deceptive press releases from AIC as well.



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"Didn't mean to stir up so much dust, but other groups like SSAA put out lots of statistics, graphs etc., which can make peoples eyes glaze over."
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Yes, and some of the "leadership" at SSAA don't like people telling it like it is, either.

As Australia's largest shooting organisation, they could be far more proactive rather than their traditional reactive stance.


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"I had been hunting whitetail in Canada with person concerned and he had been hunting/fishing/wandering in NZ for years. Always found the people open, friendly and helpful."
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No arguments there...Kiwis, especially the outdoor sports folk, are very friendly, generous and outgoing people.


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"Distrust of each other and of the police, made me do a bit more thinking on the general Oz. condition. He was amazed to find we weren't allowed to own semi-automatic 22s, or shotties, like you still can in NZ."
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When one examines what has been happening in New South Wales to law-abiding firearms owners at the hands of the firearms branch, is it any wonder Aussie gun owners are a bit paranoid?!

New Zealand maintains an extremely low firearms-involved crime rate despite a very high per-capita firearms ownership ratio.

Licencing shooters rather than their individual firearms is much more cost-effective than Australia's approach.

And all those N.Z. semi-auto rimfires and shotguns are not disproportionately represented in the few firearms incidents which do occur.

 

[Spinner]

Seeing as I live in NZ and have been to Australia several times and have many friends who live in Australia I feel somewhat qualified to provide comment.

NZ citizens enjoy greater freedoms with regard to firearms than Australian citizens, however, reports and recommendations have been made for several years to follow the lead of Australia and other nations to further restrict law-abiding gun owners and tighten firearms legislation further.

While we in NZ see some firearms-related crime, mostly our criminals are not particularly sophistocated and firearms don't often feature ... this may change (and may be changing now). We do have violent social elements in NZ, particularly in the lower socio-economic groups ... violence within families, fatal beatings of children, etc as well as violence between different groups (often racially based) and gangs. New Zealand has a high population of pacific islanders, some of whom exhibit racially based violent behaviour against other pacific island groups ... an example might be a group of Samoan youths attacking a Niue Island youth for instance. These assaults tend to be isolated and involve weapons like hatchets, machetes, baseball bats, etc. The other scenario is members of one gang versus another gang .... mostly the weapons are knives, machetes, etc but occasionally guns are involved. That's one part of the picture and to be honest its not particularly prevalent, tends to be insular and if you're a tourist you probably won't see or be exposed to a lot of that at all.

The other, more concerning, element of violence in New Zealand is caused by drugs .... particularly methamphetamine. NZ has the highest rate of clandestine meth manufacture in the world through laboratories set up in houses, barns, motel rooms, etc (interestingly Australia is no.2 in meth manufacture). Mobile labs that can be packed in a car can be set up in minutes in a quiet location with running water and electricity. Meth addicts will commit crime to buy drugs and will commit crime in drug-induced psychotic states and these people are often irrational, random and extremely violent. There is an alarming increase in this sort of violent crime in New Zealand and the NZ Police are apparently poorly equipped to fight this growing trend.

The NZ Police 111 emergency call service has recently been highlighted as grossly inefficient with calls unanswered, calls not passed onto officers or calls left without a response for days due to lack of resources. While NZ citizens can own guns they are not allowed to use guns for self or home defense unless in extreme circumstances and in mortal danger ... even then the legal ramifications are enormous with backlogged courts and certain prosecution for discharging firearms likely to put lives on hold for 2-3 years with no guarantee of a just outcome.

The NZ Police are overworked, under-resourced, poorly managed and generally fighting a loosing battle on drugs with an increasing likelihood of death or injury from meth-crazed addicts. While our Police do have handguns they are not carried on the belt, they reside in patrol cars and are only carried in situations where the likelihood of offenders with firearms or dangerous weapons has been identified. In serious firearm situations the Armed Offenders Squad are deployed ..... with a greater delay in response times.

My perception of the Australian Police force is that they're much better resourced, better trained, have better leadership and are generally better prepared to deal with violent crime. The Australian judicial system appears to be better with more sensible sentencing and better crime prevention.

As a citizen I have felt vulnerable and unsafe in several situations in NZ, including my own home, while as a tourist in Australia I have never felt particularly unsafe in either cities or in the countryside ... given, of course, sensible precautions.

When all is said and done I don't feel that New Zealand is necessarily safer than Australia, despite our lack of dangerous animals. To me the most dangerous animal is a human and I don't feel that the NZ Police force is adequately resourced or directed to provide its citizens with protection from violent crime. Most criminals and potential criminals know this ... the Police are reactionary and don't do enough to prevent crime with insanely light sentences for drug and "lesser" crimes, even for multiple offenders .... very much the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff rather than the fence at the top.

I choose to remain in New Zealand ..... for now.

Interestingly we have quite a few South African immigrants in New Zealand and the principle reason I have heard for uprooting their families and disrupting their lives is the violence in South Africa and the relative safety of New Zealand. I guess its all relative.

Spinner

 

[ceetee]

The internet is really a wonderful thing... There are now so many media outlets online (mostly radio, but a few television stations feature web broadcasts of their more sensational stories) that you can get live news, from literally anywhere in the world.

That being said, if you want to know what's going on somewhere in the world, tune in for a few days! You'll be amazed!

As for the family from South Africa moving to NZ to get away from the violence, I can believe it. Check out the news on 94.7 Highveld Radio for a few days... ( Highveld Stereo's website )

 

[fallingblock]

Speaking of which, Spinner.....

"NZ citizens enjoy greater freedoms with regard to firearms than Australian citizens, however, reports and recommendations have been made for several years to follow the lead of Australia and other nations to further restrict law-abiding gun owners and tighten firearms legislation further."
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Don't forget to make your submission soon to:

Law and Order Committee
Parliament Buildings
WELLINGTON

on the Arms Act Amendment III.

There is some pretty sneaky stuff going on with that one, particularly with regard to prohibiting owners working on their personal firearms, forbidding ammunition imports and 'back-door' registration via "serial number lists".


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"As a citizen I have felt vulnerable and unsafe in several situations in NZ, including my own home, while as a tourist in Australia I have never felt particularly unsafe in either cities or in the countryside ... given, of course, sensible precautions."
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I've been panhandled to distraction in Australia, and threatened with violence in both nations:

A druged-up motorist on the Gold Coast (some illegally-held capsicum spray defused that situation) and in Dunedin' Octagon...by a drug-affected dimwit! Fortunatley for me, he was too wasted to pursue.

N.Z. really does have to get a handle on the methamphetamine fad, and soon.

Putting some "real world" magistrates and justices in place would be of great assistance as well.