traveling to missouri

[JEB]

i am an iowa resident and may be required to travel to missouri this weekend but have been unable to find any solid information as to some specific legalities. from what i have found it seems that MO will honor my Iowa PTCW; after that i get a little confused. i have been told that when traveling to another state, you are required to abide by that state's carry laws, correct? i was previously under the impression that you had to be 23 years of age to carry concealed in MO, but i also heard recently that the age had been lowered to 21; which is correct? (i am currently 22)

if i cant carry concealed do i have any other options? (car carry, open carry, etc...)


any help is appriciated!

 

[A.H. Fox]

i am an iowa resident and may be required to travel to missouri this weekend but have been unable to find any solid information as to some specific legalities. from what i have found it seems that MO will honor my Iowa PTCW; after that i get a little confused. i have been told that when traveling to another state, you are required to abide by that state's carry laws, correct? i was previously under the impression that you had to be 23 years of age to carry concealed in MO, but i also heard recently that the age had been lowered to 21; which is correct? (i am currently 22)

if i cant carry concealed do i have any other options? (car carry, open carry, etc...)


any help is appriciated!

RsMO - 571.030. 3. Subdivisions (1), (5), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section do not apply when the actor is transporting such weapons in a nonfunctioning state or in an unloaded state when ammunition is not readily accessible or when such weapons are not readily accessible. Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply to any person twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed, nor when the actor is also in possession of an exposed firearm or projectile weapon for the lawful pursuit of game, or is in his or her dwelling unit or upon premises over which the actor has possession, authority or control, or is traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state. Subdivision (10) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply if the firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed by a person while traversing school premises for the purposes of transporting a student to or from school, or possessed by an adult for the purposes of facilitation of a school-sanctioned firearm-related event.

Here is a link to the MO statutes. Read them all and be familiar with the applicable subdivisions.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c571.htm

Specifically 571.107.

Not sure what Iowa law states but Iowa does not recognize a Missouri CCW, per the Missouri AG website, assume no reciprocity. A Iowa permit to carry is not a CCW endorsement as far as Missouri is concerned. It appears that you can carry open or concealed with this PTCW in Iowa. Missouri (state law) has no restrictions on open carry for Missouri residents with exceptions as to where; schools, public buildings, posted "no guns" businesses and that sort of thing. All political subdivisions (cities, towns, villages) of the state can restrict (this makes it very difficult to walk around with a gun on your hip for all to see, cross the street and you go from no problem to big problem) open carry, no statewide preemption. If you do not have a valid CCW endorsement from your state you will not be able to carry concealed anywhere in Missouri. You will need to contact the local sheriff where you will be and travel through to get the correct answer. Remember, it is at times what the sheriff wishes the law to be and not what the law is that will get you in trouble. Since Iowa does not have a separate CCW endorsement there is no reciprocity between Missouri and Iowa for CCW. You will need to get on the phone and make as many calls as required to stay out of the poky.

Good luck.

 

[TX expat]

+1 to everything A.H. said. Great advice ^^^

I would add that open carry, while not illegal in MO, is a very rare sight, so be very sure to double check all the local ordinances before considering it as an option.

You can find contact information for all the law enforcement offices across the state. I'd most certainly talk to the county sheriff's office that you will be going to and get their advice on your situation.

http://ago.mo.gov/lawenforcement.htm

 

[NavyLCDR]

I am just not seeing the problem with carrying a concealed handgun in Missouri on an Iowa license.

http://ago.mo.gov/Concealed-Weapons/

Missouri's concealed carry law provides recognition of concealed weapons endorsements from every state that issues them.

States that do not issue endorsements to carry a concealed weapon
Illinois
Wisconsin

Our OP has a permit from Iowa that permits him to carry a handgun concealed in Iowa. It would be illegal for him to carry the handgun concealed in Iowa without it. Therefore, his Iowa permit is an endorsement to carry a concealed handgun in Iowa and is recognized in Missouri, according the AG's website.

This is the actual MO statute:

571.107. 1. A concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize the person in whose name the permit or endorsement is issued to carry concealed firearms on or about his or her person or vehicle throughout the state.

Our OP has a permit issued by another state. That is all that is required. It is not required that the other state recongizes MO permits.

Heck, according to you guys, I could not carry a concealed handgun in MO on my Washington Concealed Pistol License because it is specifically a "license" and not an endorsement or permit.

To the OP, be advised the Federal 1000' school zone will still apply to you in MO if you do not have a MO permit (not that it would ever have reason to be enforced, but it is still there.)

 

[TX expat]

Yeah, it looks like some of the reciprocity may have changed since I looked at it last. Iowa still does not recognize any other permits but it looks like MO recognizes theirs. I think I'd still call the MO AG office and get an explicit verification just to be safe.

 

[A.H. Fox]

Not a legal expert, the key is the requirements to meet reciprocity. When in doubt call ahead. Just cuz the MO AG says you are good to go does not mean that you will not get hassled locally. Since MO's CCW is not recognized I would tread lightly and get the skinny from DA MAN in MO.

 

[bhk]

I live in Misssouri. Missouri recognizes all states' permits, even if they don't honor ours. It is as simple as that, period. BTW, as of the first of the year Iowa will recognize permits from other states.

The reason Missouri has some formal reciprocity agreements with selected other states is that was the only way we could get them to recognize our permit. By Missouri law, these agreements were not need for us to recognize THEIR permits. We recognize all of them. Our law is relatively new and our attorney general's office was great about contacting other states and doing whatever it took to get recognized by them. Missouri's permit is now probably the most recognized in the nation.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I still don't understand how anyone could argue with a statute that is so plainly written as:

571.107. 1. A concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize the person in whose name the permit or endorsement is issued to carry concealed firearms on or about his or her person or vehicle throughout the state.

Local authority doesn't have squat input into it. State law says any other permit is recognized throughout the state. It's as plain as the nose on Jimmy Durante's face.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Navy, just because the STATE says it is legal and OK to carry statewide does not mean that some of the local LEO's around the state wont hassle you. Granted they don't have a LEGAL leg to stand on, but since when has that stopped them? I think that was what A.H and Punk were getting at. Better to be safe than have to deal with a PITA LEO that doesn't know his rear section from a hole in the ground. Many have had to deal with this very same issue in MANY states.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Better to be safe than have to deal with a PITA LEO that doesn't know his rear section from a hole in the ground.

OK. So Joe calls the Chief of Police in Podunk, MO and says, "I am coming to Podunk tomorrow and I want to know if I can carry a concealed handgun on my Iowa license." Chief of Police in Podunk replies, "No, absolutely not!" Then what? I guess Joe just leaves his gun at home?

The state law is the state law. Period. Personally, I don't particularly care if Barney Fife in Podunk, MO doesn't know what the state law is. If he stops me, then we'll deal with it. This is America... last time I checked we weren't supposed to be living in fear of rogue or ignorant police officers. We are supposed to abide by what the law says, and so are police officers. We should not go out of our way to ensure that Barney knows the law BEFORE we engage in a lawful activity. Where does it end? Do I ask Barney ahead of time if I can ride my bicycle down the street on the 5th Sunday of the month because a 5th Sunday only happens once every couple years and Barney may not know it's legal to ride a bicycle on the 5th Sunday of a month?

For the record, my personal feeling is that only a fraction of one percent of police officers are ignorant or rogue.

Again, it is a very plainly written statute that actually declares the activity as legal. There are very few times when the law is this plain and clear about something. How hard is it to accept what the law says? I am really confused. There is a state law that says an activity is legal. There is an Attorney General's website that says the same activity is legal. What is it going to take for someone just to get on with their life and engage in the legal activity and not worry about it?!?

 

[A.H. Fox]

If the sheriff in Podunk MO says "No" then Joe will be in heap big trouble. Even if the sheriff is in violation of state statute. Barney Fife routinely enforces laws he wishes were on the books and let the judge sort it out.

Joe, not being a Missouri resident, will get all sorts of bogus charges stuck to him. He is not going to be a very happy camper being tossed in the poky far from home. Barney will always use "qualified immunity" or "reasonable whatever" to get out of the jam he put himself into. Judges, in virtually every instance, will side with Barney when it comes to redress by the falsely detained or arrested.

The thing Joe needs to determine is whether or not he has the intestinal fortitude to exercise his right of redress after he gets out of the poky.

The law is on the side of Joe in the state of Missouri. Barney Fife is only concerned about Podunk and could care less what other Barney's do or do not do.

The goal here in Missouri is to get state wide preemption, lower the age for a CCW to 18, further strengthen and expand our Castle Doctrine. When these things occur in Missouri and the rest of these 50 states then Joe will not have to make a phone call to Barney's boss.

Then again, if he is CCW'ing properly Barney Fife will never know and so the issue will not arise.

 

[bhk]

Being from Missouri, I think calling the local LEO is rediculous. Although it took a while, our law enforcement community has a pretty good understanding of our law. In the beginning (7 or 8 years ago), we had several sheriffs who wouldn't even issue permits. As a result, thousands upon thousands of Missourians pursued out-of-state permits to get around this (most from PA). As a result, our LEOs are probably more familiar with the OOS permit concept that in most areas.

If every out-of-state ccw permit holder has to call the destination LEO before visiting what is the purpose of reciprocity anyway. Just go and don't worry about it. If you have more questions, please ask your question at http://www.missouricarry.com/forums/.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I noticed another guy from Missouri on the "other" THR in a thread similar to this one, so I asked him about this thread and simply asked, "Are things really that bad in Missouri?" I don't think he realized there are two THR's, so he asked me to forward his reply, he's brolin_1911a1 on .us:

So are things really this bad in Missouri?:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=560682

No. It sounds like he's been talking to some local cop or cops who have only a slight understanding of the law.

It is true that one must be 23 in order to apply for a Missouri CCW permit. But the state recognizes all other states' and/or political subdivisions' permits regardless of the age of the permit holder. My own daughter, for instance, has carried using a Maine non-resident permit since she was was nineteen. It would have been since age eighteen but the permit didn't arrive until a few days after her nineteenth birthday.

Missouri law also allows anyone 21 or older who is not otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm to transport a concealable firearm ANYWHERE within the passenger compartment of a vehicle. "Anywhere" can include one's pockets; just don't get out of the vehicle with the gun still in your pocket. Known as "glove box carry" this was originally intended by the Democrat lawmaker who introduced it as a means of derailing the CCW effort. Instead, it was incorporated into the final CCW bill.

Missouri's firearms laws are easy to read plain language and found at http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c571.htm if you'd like to read them for yourself.

I just simply find it disturbing that Americans feel the need to ask Local LEO's if it's OK if they do something that the statutes and the State AG so clearly define as a legal activitiy.

 

[JEB]

The goal here in Missouri is to get state wide preemption, lower the age for a CCW to 18, further strengthen and expand our Castle Doctrine.

last i knew, the age to conceal in MO was 23. is this still correct or has the age limit been lowered to 21?

 

[A.H. Fox]

23...working to get 21...18 after that. All it takes is time and the right state legislators.

 

[NavyLCDR]

last i knew, the age to conceal in MO was 23. is this still correct or has the age limit been lowered to 21?

However, persons age 18 and above can conceal carry in MO if they possess a valid out-of-state permit. The 23 age restriction applies to the issuance of a Missouri permit - not the carrying of the firearm itself.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

I just simply find it disturbing that Americans feel the need to ask Local LEO's if it's OK if they do something that the statutes and the State AG so clearly define as a legal activitiy

Totally agree with you Navy. But the fact is, this is the state of our country. Sad as it is to admit, it is best to err on the side of caution when traveling out of state. In your own state is much easier and less expensive to fight a wrong doing from a local LEO which in all reality they tend to target out of stater's for that very reason. They know that 75% of the time they will get "paid" for their illegal acts rather than someone willing to shell out their hard earned cash to fight it which in most cases would be MUCH more expensive than to simply pay off the greedy buttheads.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Sad as it is to admit, it is best to err on the side of caution when traveling out of state.

And you know I am going to disagree with that. I am going to abide by laws. That's it. I feel no need to "err on the side of caution" if I am abiding by the law. I am not going to modify my life to fit into the opinion or personal desire of a LEO who may not like my chosen, LEGAL, activities.

If the law says my Washington CPL is good throughout the state of MO, for instance, then I am going to carry my gun throughout the state MO with my Washington CPL and I'm not going to ask the local LEO's whose jurisdictions I may visit if it is OK with them. I stopped asking my mother for permission to do things 30 years ago, I'm not about to replace her with a badge and uniform.

 

[788Ham]

OOHHRRAAHH NavyLT !! I couldn't agree more, stop living in fear, look fear in the eyes and get on with your life. As I've heard many times in my life, "They might kill you, but they ain't gonna eat you"! Thanks for your service also LT !

 

[brolin_1911a1]

As NavyLT said, the age 23 minimum age restriction applies only to applicants for a Missouri CCW. I was part of the group that worked to pass that law in 2003. A state senator whose vote was needed for passage and to override the expected gubernatorial veto expressed reservations about the perceived irresponsibility of his own 21-year old son. Said senator was comfortable with a 23-year age restriction. Our group was comfortable with it since the language recognizing all out-of-state permits elsewhere in the bill meant that those under 23 could still carry on a Florida, Maine, or Utah permit. Whatever it takes to get the law passed.

My own daughter, just turned 21 a month ago, has carried on a Maine permit since she was nineteen. Shortly after she got it, we had occasion to speak on a friendly, social basis with one of our local gendarmes. He and his partner both made the claim that she had to be 23. Fortunately, I had a booklet with me published by the Missouri Highway Patrol explaining otherwise and used that to correct their misinformation. The booklet, SHP-863, is available free at any Highway Patrol district troop headquarters It is also downloadable off the internet at http://www.mshp.dps.missouri.gov/MSHPWeb/Publications/Brochures/documents/SHP-863.pdf although the officially printed booklet would probably carry more weight with a small town cop.

I, my wife, and daughter now keep that booklet, SHP-863, in the glove box of each of our vehicles. It would be relatively simple and easy to politely say, "Officer, I have a booklet in my glovebox printed by the State Patrol. If you'd be willing to reach in and turn to the right hand column on page 5 you will see that we are in compliance with state law according to both the Highway Patrol and the State Attorney General."

I repeat, you can obtain that booklet by stopping at any Patrol headquarters and asking for one or more copies. A interactive troop headquarters map that provides the location of each troop headquarters can be found here, http://www.mshp.dps.missouri.gov/MSHPWeb/Root/index.html . Just click on the region through which you'll be traveling to find out where that troop's headquarters is located.

 

[writerinmo]

Let me tell you something about Missouri... yes, we recognize your permit, will you get hassled by a LEO if you get pulled over for something and are carrying concealed? Depends on who pulls you over, and where. We have some localities whose chief law enforcement agencies spoke out loudly criticizing the concealed carry law and acted against it wherever they could. Some St. Louis law enforcement agencies went door to door in business districts, advising store owners that they needed to post their business against the CC ordinance, and even furnished signs to them. It has taken a lot to get rid of these signs, and we have an active boycott list on missouricarry.com.

I would never call a LEO and ask them, and I'll tell you why. Because I did. I called my city police department and left a message for the liason officer to contact me, and why. When he called me back, he told me that while there weren't any ordinances against open carry, they advised that I not because there was the probability that I "might cause a panic"... I told him no, I had a CCW, but while we were on the subject... in the end he admitted that the problem is that while Festus allows open carry, it's "sister city" Crystal City does not, and the city limits are not defined well enough to know for certain in several areas exactly which city you might be in. I was like ''Nice..."

And when I applied for my FFL03, I sent in a copy of the app to the Chief of Police, who contacted me, concerned that I was opening a gun shop in a residential area...

 

[NavyLCDR]

That's true, writerinmo. The more of a big deal we make about something, such as talking to police about our guns when we don't have to, the more likely it is that they are going to use it against us later. Personally, I think it's better just to keep my yap shut, obey the law, and go about my business and not solicit what LEO's opinion of my business is.

 

[brolin_1911a1]

I learned while in my late teens that the local cops are no more likely to know firearms laws than are the regulars at your local hardware store's sporting goods counter. Generally the cops are much less likely. Their schtick is to have a broad, generalized overview of those laws most necessary to maintaining public order and safety. For fine details, it's often easier for the cops to just arrest you and let the prosecuting attorney or courts sort it out. It's up to you to know the law, not them. Over the intervening forty or so years, I've learned that it's generally better to look up the laws for oneself either in a law library, official repository, or the internet. That way one knows that one is getting the facts rather than some cop's personal opinion.

 

[A.H. Fox]

"if i cant carry concealed do i have any other options? (car carry, open carry, etc...)"

Folks on these forums seem to think that conducting LEO training on CCW/OC law is to be performed on the side of the road or a sidewalk. :banghead:

If you open carry, for what ever reason, expect to get hassled, if you don't get hassled, bonus. An out-of-stater is the last person on the planet that will accomplish a successful CCW/OC law training event on the side of the road. The requirement to know the law is important, the ease of determining what the open carry law is in any given jurisdiction is also important. Find the local ordinance via the Interwebs, some are easy to find others not so easy. Memorize the municipality boundaries and OC with confidence. Carry concealed legally and all of the above is irrelevant, for the most part.

 

[wow6599]

http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html