Tried to ship via UPS - What did I do wrong?

[Quoheleth]

I took a revolver to the local UPS Customer Service Center this afternoon (note: not a "UPS Store") to ship a revolver in-state (Texas) to another individual. Neither of us are FFL holders.

At the counter, my open box was politely inspected to make sure the gun was empty. She asked to see my license and I told her I didn't have one. She asked if I had a copy of the license to whom I was shipping. I told her he did not have one and that in Texas, per state and federal code, individuals can ship via common courier to each other.

She called her manager who turned my package away.
I called the 800-ASK-UPS number and was told the same thing - handguns need to be sent via FFL holder.

I didn't have a copy of the US Code handy :banghead: but does't this mean I should have been OK?

[QUOTE[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier? [Back]

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

[/QUOTE]

What did I do wrong that I was denied?

Q

 

[Cop Bob]

BTDT

Been there done that.....
It's why I use FED-EX... never had issue or problem with them....

 

[One-Time]

you ran into a couple idiots, thats all, no fault of yours

 

[357_]

Just because the law allows the shipping doesn't mean that UPS is obliged to do so.

It probably goes against their policies.

 

[rellascout]

Just because the law allows the shipping doesn't mean that UPS is obliged to do so.

It probably goes against their policies.

Bingo... They simply do not want to do it. They have every right to refuse that package if they wish.

 

[zxcvbob]

What did I do wrong that I was denied?

You told her what was in the box. Not required by USC 18 for intrastate shipments. (of course you would have violated UPS policy by not informing them, therefore they would not pay your claim if they lost the package, but they never pay anyway)

 

[nalioth]

It is not against UPS' policies to ship firearms intrastate between nonlicensees. The OP just got hold of a couple of ringers, and an idiot on the other end of the phone.

Quoheleth, next time you go, visit the UPS.com "firearms shipment" page and print it out and take it with you.

Here's the part you want to show them.

UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) for transportation from and between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), law enforcement agencies of the United States (or of any department or agency of the United States), law enforcement agencies of any state or department agency (or political subdivision of any state), from and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law, and when such shipment complies with all federal, state and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient, and package.

I suspect I've been to the same service center on Mykawa a time or two and they do know the laws (at least they have every time I've shipped firearms).

 

[verdun59]

Last week I had to ship one of mine back to the mothership for warranty repair. Took the box already sealed to UPS store, clerk says "what's in there? " I respond "machine parts" and that was that.

 

[zxcvbob]

I've found that when I go to the UPS customer service center, they don't ask what's in the box. So I don't have to lie.

 

[jtmo3]

Quite frankly UPS stinks. I have other words for them, but this is a public forum. Every time I send a gun back to the man or another ffl, I use Fed-ex. I can take it to their outlets where UPS has to go through the service center, which happens to be quite a ways away from me. For firearms, DO NOT USE UPS. As an afterthought, for anything you have a choice about, do not use UPS.

 

[bkhosken]

Listen guys, when you ship "machine parts" you are NOT IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE 18 USC code!!! Per the above, note highlighted section:

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

I don't mind fooling UPS, or even not following UPS policy...but I WON'T break the law, and it's clear by law the shipper has to tell the carrier it's a firearm...not machine parts.

However, thanks VERY much for the UPS policy section, I will bring it with me next time. They denied my shipment too. FedEx now has a policy that says either the shipper or receiver MUST have an FFL. They will no longer take person to person shipments.

 

[zxcvbob]

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

I don't mind fooling UPS, or even not following UPS policy...but I WON'T break the law, and it's clear by law the shipper has to tell the carrier it's a firearm...not machine parts.

That's not the actual law, that looks like a quote from the BATF's faq page. It's pretty close, but not accurate. You must notify the shipper when you are sending a firearm to a nonlicensee in another state.

"Machine parts" is kind of lame.

 

[nalioth]

Listen guys, when you ship "machine parts" you are NOT IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE 18 USC code!!! Per the above, note highlighted section:

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

Again, this only references HALF the law.

You DO NOT have to declare if you're shipping to a licensee.

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped. - The law

 

[Quoheleth]

But I wasn't shipping to a licensee - just an average, ordinary citizen.

I understand that UPS can do what they want --- and they rejected my package.

FED-EX is better about it than UPS between individuals (non-FFLs)? Dang...I had it backwards...now I just have to find a FED-EX nearby...

And it was the UPS center in Baytown. The previous time I used them it was shipping my CZ back to CZ-USA --- no problem. This was no soap.

In a twist, the gal behind the counter, when I said I was declaring a firearm, just about had a tizzy. She had never handled a revolver before and didn't know how to check the pistol to be sure it was unloaded. I asked her if I could handle the gun (I know...it was mine and I shouldn't have had to ask, but it was my way of trying to put her at ease). I picked it up, showed her how to manipulate the cylinder release, and how the check the cylinder. After I did it a couple times, I asked her if she wanted to try it. She did, and thanked me for the impromptu lesson on how to check a revolver.

Anyone know of a gun-friendly FED-EX or UPS customer center in the Kingwood/Humble/I-45 & 1960 area of Houston? I'll be all through there tomorrow.

Q

 

[zxcvbob]

Originally Posted by 18 USC 922
(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped. - The law

You don't have to declare for intrastate shipments either.

 

[Quoheleth]

^
That's US Code, I believe. UPS policy is "thou shalt declare." Period.

I really don't need UPS suing my scrawney carcass because I violated corporate policy.

Q

 

[nalioth]

And it was the UPS center in Baytown.

Well, there's your problem
Yes, it's a long(er) drive to Mykawa, but that is the Houston hub and they know their business there.

In a twist, the gal behind the counter, when I said I was declaring a firearm, just about had a tizzy. She had never handled a revolver before and didn't know how to check the pistol to be sure it was unloaded. I asked her if I could handle the gun (I know...it was mine and I shouldn't have had to ask, but it was my way of trying to put her at ease). I picked it up, showed her how to manipulate the cylinder release, and how the check the cylinder. After I did it a couple times, I asked her if she wanted to try it. She did, and thanked me for the impromptu lesson on how to check a revolver.

Again, you don't have to show them anything (the Mykawa folks don't even ask). You appear to have been victimized by the clerk.

Just box the item up, and take it to Mykawa next time. Yes, you'll need to put "firearm" on the invoice, but they won't give you any static about it.

 

[Quoheleth]

Thanks, Nalioth!

 

[hirundo82]

FED-EX is better about it than UPS between individuals (non-FFLs)? Dang...I had it backwards...now I just have to find a FED-EX nearby...

No, you were right--Fedex will only ship to and from a licensee. Compare what is posted on UPS's website to what Fedex has on their site.

UPS:

UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) for transportation from and between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), law enforcement agencies of the United States (or of any department or agency of the United States), law enforcement agencies of any state or department agency (or political subdivision of any state), from and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law, and when such shipment complies with all federal, state and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient, and package.

FedEx:

Firearms
Carrier will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:
Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S.or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).

I've never had any issue shipping (to myself) from the Mykawa hub, but I always go in with printouts of the UPS policies and the ATF FAQ.

 

[brickeyee]

And if you read further down in the same section of the Regulations you find this:

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart C_Administrative and Miscellaneous Provisions

Sec. 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.


(d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written
acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other
container in which there is a firearm: Provided, That this paragraph
shall not apply with respect to the return of a firearm to a passenger
who places firearms in the carrier's custody for the duration of the
trip.

To comply with this section every shipper requires notice of the package contents.

It is not a matter of 'signature required' as part of the terms of carriage, but CFR, and it is to ANY recipient, even FFLs.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Um, you missed the important part
that is quickly summed as

'If you are illegally shipping a firearm you must inform the carrier'

 

[zxcvbob]

There's that pesky phrase "in interstate or foreign commerce" again that totally nullifies Sec. 478.31 for intrastate shipments.

 

[Shadow 7D]

OOh, yeah that part too.....

 

[joeh84]

So, what if I wanted firearms I already own shipped to me in Texas from my parents' house in Iowa? Anybody ever done that?

 

[nalioth]

So, what if I wanted firearms I already own shipped to me in Texas from my parents' house in Iowa? Anybody ever done that?

This has been covered numerous times here.

You have to be the one to ship it.

If your parents/siblings/childhood-next-door-neighbor-best-friend ships it, it has to go through an FFL on your end.