Trigger Creep Theory

[1911Tuner]

Litigation

Ease up there Jammer...

Lawsuits are a sore spot with the general public these days because anybody can sue practically anybody for just about any reason they can cook up.

Fuff isn't talking about something going wrong with Raja's trigger jobs, causing the gun to burst-fire or "go off." None of us dispute the fact that he knows his business...He and others like him couldn't stay solvent for long if their trigger jobs went south on a regular basis.

No...The question is much more basic than the mechanical or geometrical aspect. It's the human part of it that's subject to failure. Imagine this scenario for a minute, and consider it carefully, if you will...and also the fact that a single-action autopistol requires a bit more attention in the handling in order to prevent the following...even if the trigger group is bone stock.

A young fella reads all the gun rags in anticipation of his 21st birthday,
and has been savin' his nickels and dimes so that he can get started enjoying his second declaration of independence by buying a pistol on his own. He's already determined that he has to have a 1911, and that he simply must have it "tuned up" before it will be truly fit to wow the members of his peer group. These tuneups normally include a trigger job...and he will no doubt request a "really GOOD trigger." Okay...So the good smith delivers the gun, complete with a trigger that the lad isn't prepared to use. By the way...the kid lies to the smith when asked if he's an experienced gun-handler. "Oh yeah! I've been around guns like this all my life!")


He can't wait to try it out, so he runs by the local Wally-World for a value-pack of ball..and a box of hollowpoints for defense...and heads for the
local indoor firing range and rent-a-gun emporium...but before he even starts the car, he decides to load his newly-tuned pistol...just to make sure he can do it right, and because it gives him a rush to handle a loaded gun
that belongs to him and him alone...and he proceeds to touch off a round in the car that takes a chunk out of his leg before punching through the door. The bullet riccochets off the pavement and strikes a pregnant woman
in the ankle, who, having heard the shot, knows immediately that she has been hit.

Now...the bullet's energy has been bled off to the point that it barely breaks the skin, but no matter...She's been shot! Terrified, she falls to the ground and begins to experience intense pain in her abdomen. The young guy, of course, sensing his young life going down the tubes, swears that the gun just "Went off!" ...which we all know isn't true, but long before the smoke clears, the gun is examined by the police, who report that it does indeed have a very ticklish trigger. From there, it's only a matter of time before a lawyer takes the woman's case because she had a miscarriage, and after trying the trigger himself, decides that he can make a case out of it. Since the boy is covering his own butt, he tells the lawyer exactly who worked on the gun. Since the young mall ninja doesn't have any real assets to come after, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what comes next.

I submit that it's not so important to know your stuff as it is to know your client. Anybody can get a trigger job if they have the cash to pay for it.
Not everybody with the cash to pay for a trigger job has the cash to pay
a settlement if they get stupid with it. Go to a public indoor range sometime and spend a hour watching everybody...How many will you see
that will make you more than a little nervous?

 

[Jammer Six]

Nope, but sometimes I get paid in coffee...



'Tuner, that's not even close.

Your version of the ending will only happen IF THE SMITH CHOOSES HIS CLIENTS!

If he does that job for anyone, which is the way it should be, the responsibility ends up right where it should be- on the stud muffin.

Personally, I'd rather have a claim on all the future earnings of a 21 year old than on the possessions of an old, burned out pistolsmith.

Now, don't go getting upset. This is just a simple challenge.

I challenge you to present a valid citation of any settlement in which the weight of the trigger determined guilt, innocence, liability or changed the amount of damages.

Any valid citation that we can verify.

Gee, it got quiet in here.

Go to a public indoor range sometime and spend a hour watching everybody...How many will you see that will make you more than a little nervous?

Couldn't have said it better, 'Tuner.

Why weren't they turned away?

Why didn't the range pick and choose who they let shoot?

Because that would make them liable for the actions of the people they do let shoot!

This isn't complicated. It isn't hard. Staying out of the decision and making the same goods and services available to everybody eliminates liability, making choices and decisions on who to serve and who not to serve promotes liability.

Following your logic, why is it that Colt, Springfield, H&K and everyone else will sell to anyone who can legally buy and has the money?

Why don't they simply eliminate all that liability by picking and choosing their customers?

Because decisions invoke liability, that's why.

 

[1911Tuner]

Pick and Choose?

Jammer said:

If he does that job for anyone, which is the way it should be, the responsibility ends up right where it should be- on the stud muffin.
______________

Well, if you say so, m'fren....Understand that my version didn't end in a
net loss for the gunsmith...but it would have cost him a lot of time, sleep and money. Anybody can file a lawsuit for just about any reason these
days. I remember a friend of mine who bought his son a new Corvette for
his graduation...the boy had just turned 18. When he wrapped it around a
tree and crippled his girlfriend, the suit wound up in his father's lap. He
won the suit...but it cost him enough to have bought two more Vettes
and pay the insurance on'em for a year. A liability suit doesn't have to be
successful in order to be ruinous. It only needs to be filed.

I know that I'd never do a trigger job like that for a young man with a gleam in his eye. I've turned away several for just that reason...the same as a licensed firearms dealer reserves the right to refuse to sell a gun to anybody that they feel is of questionable mentality, though they have all the necessary paperwork in order for the transfer. It seems that it would tend to sway a jury of one's peers to be able to say..."I have refused to perform work for certain people who I didn't feel had enough experience
to be safe."

Anywayzzzzz...That's meat for another thread, and I'll be happy to host it and offer point/counterpoint as food for thought.

 

[Wichaka]

Here's something I was pondering yesterday as I was doing a trigger job on a TRP.

All trigger pulls have some creep........

Remember where we started?


I've had several conversations with some LE jusidictions in my state, about which guns are allowed to be carried. 1911's seem to be the most restricted firearm in the LE community. Why? A few reasons, and here are some of them;

1) A -They aren't safe.
Q - Why? What makes them unsafe?
A - The hammer is cocked all the time, and the trigger is too light.

Okay, so we make the trigger a heavier pull. But the hammer being back, that's part of the operation of the gun. Glocks are essentialy cocked & unlocked.......So now what's the problem?

A - Have seen hammers drop, and unintentional discharges.
Q - How has that happened?
A - Don't know.

The 1911 has gone thru 4 wars, and countless other conflicts. How can it be a bad gun?
I agree with Tuner on his point of military adaptation of a gun with a certain trigger. Because they (the military) don't know what fool is going to be behind the trigger. Some take their training seriously........when others.......................well, you take a guess at that one. The reason for DAO guns? Ya.........I think so.

I'll give my best guess at why the 1911 has taken such a bad rapp...........from untrained 'smiths butcherin' the snot out of these good guns. The other reason? Because of the poor quality of late. Why buy a 1911 that won't shoot out of the box, when you can spend less for a Gluck...uh sorry.....Glock, and it shoots fine. Same for HK, Sig.........you name the others. I know that some of the others have problems too...........but on the whole, the poor quality has hurt the 1911. Along with poor 'smithin'.

Now..............my poor 'smithin' comments are NOT aimed at anyone.
Let's have a show of hands here, of which 'smith among us that has never been brought a 1911 that wasn't butchered, and we were asked to uno it?
Thought so.
Now, how many of the others makers guns were brought to us for undoin' the same type of butcherin'? Thought so again.........

I would say that the majority of the pistols brought in for "undoin" are 1911's They were made unsafe by dingbats, and happened to do their unsafe thing in front of someone who has a position somewhere.

I made a challenge to the Chief of one local dept. Here it is;

I would unload my 1911, re-insert the mag. put it in cocked & locked mode. The Chief has 1 shot at my gun to make the hammer fall. I told him he could throw it down the street, let a semi run over it, throw it off a building, hit it with a sledge.........whatever. If the hammer falls, I walk away with a beat up gun. BUT, when the hammer doesn't fall..........I still walk away with my beat up gun, and he buys me a new one to match exactly what I have.
He refused the offer.............but is now studying the 1911 and contacting other dept.'s that allow them.

I don't see a problem with picking & choosing who we will do a light trigger for. You don't start out a child with a .458 Winchester do you?
Luckily, I don't 'smith for a living...........so I can pick and choose who I will do what for.

I don't do the work that Chuck does............some beautiful stuff Chuck!
I don't build works of art, or race guns. I just cater to the L.E. community, and have set my guidelines that nothing going into L.E. duty will have anything les than a 5lb pull.

My intent is not to bash you Dave, am wanting to see how you do your 56oz triggers. How you prep the sears & hammers. The pic you posted of the sear engaged into the hammer hooks, didn't look healthy. I'm hoping a bad pic? as there wasn't much holding onto the hooks. Still would like to see a cross section view of one of your prepped sears. I may ask clarifying questions.............but what you do with your triggers is your biz.

Food for thought...........nothing more.

 

[Old Fuff]

(The Old Fuff emerges from his cave wearing asbestos underwear and a full suit of armor … While peering out from his foxhole he first makes this comment … )

*** The following is offered for the edification of our readers, and is not directed toward any particular person or persons. Only the innocent are guilty, or something like that ***

Lawsuits involving firearms are sometimes more then a simple legal contest because they may have political overtones. On party or the other may be out looking to make points and profits at the same time.

On a number of occasions I have been retained as an expert witness to testify in both criminal cases and civil actions. In all of these the defendant or respondent was someone who was alleged to have discharged a firearm, and as a result caused someone else property damage, physical injury or even death. For the purpose of this story I will call him “Shooter.†Shooter’s defense was that the shooting was unintentional, and so was any injury that was caused. Now this is a very weak defense, and I suspect Shooter would find little sympathy on this forum. However Shooter (and his attorney) usually weren’t dealing with anyone who knew anything about firearms, so there was a remote chance they might sell this story.

Thus one side or the other would retain the Old Fuff, or someone like him to determine if there was any mechanical condition within the offending firearm that might either support or undercut Shooter’s story. In particular the attorneys and their clients were especially interested in:

Broken or worn parts that might cause, or contribute toward an unintentional discharge.

Something in the firearm’s design, and/or material defects or poor workmanship that might be to blame.

Deliberate modifications that were made by some other individual that might cause, or contribute toward the unintentional discharge. In particular, they were interested in any modifications that was made to (1) the trigger mechanism, and (2) that were made to any safety device in a manner that did or might cause it to fail or become inoperative.

If anything was discovered you can bet your bottom dollar that whoever did the work will find themselves part of this lawsuit, regardless if their work did or didn’t play a part in what happened, and it will be up to that person to prove to the jury’s satisfaction that he was indeed blameless. Right or wrong, once it is shown that such modifications were made whoever did them is guilty until proven innocent.

If this is a civil case you can be sure that besides Shooter, the gun’s manufacturer, wholesaler, retailer, and anyone else a hungry lawyer can think of will have been made a party to the suit. The manufacturer’s experts will quickly seize on the opportunity to claim that the outside work, whatever it was, is to blame for the unfortunate firing of their product, and that after it was changed it was no longer “up to factory standard.†This would be especially true where the trigger pull was lightened. The amount of reduction might or might not have lowered the trigger pull to an unsafe level, but in an act of financial self preservation the manufacturer would condemn any changes that were discovered no matter what they were.

For what its worth, in one of the cases in which I was personally involved a modification to the trigger mechanism that could have, and probably did contribute toward or cause the unintentional(?) discharge was found, and the bottom-feeders went on a spree. In the others the gun passed muster, which strengthened Shooters defense, but didn’t always get him off the hook.

 

[1911Tuner]

Answers

Here's some ammo you can shoot back at those questions.

Wichaka
Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: Washington State
Posts: 79
Here's something I was pondering yesterday as I was doing a trigger job on a TRP.

All trigger pulls have some creep........

Remember where we started?


I've had several conversations with some LE jusidictions in my state, about which guns are allowed to be carried. 1911's seem to be the most restricted firearm in the LE community. Why? A few reasons, and here are some of them;

1) They aren't safe.

Of course it's not safe. It's a gun!
___________________


Have seen hammers drop, and unintentional discharges.

Not unless some moron removed the half-cock notch, and even then, it probably ain't gonna happen unless the trigger gets pulled.
______________________

So many misconceptions over that cocked hammer. Why? Because it's visible. When people see the hammer in that mode, they get nervous.

Educate'em, Steve...Fight the good fight!

 

[Jammer Six]

Cite, 'Fuff, cite.

All we need now is a cite. and I'll concede all your points.

You being such an expert, and everything, and having logged so many hours on the witness stand, one little cite should be no problem at all.

One cite in which the weight of trigger changed the outcome, the verdict, or the amount of the award.

Just one, 'Fuff.

 

[Dave Sample]

Thanks for putting up with me Tuner. I am sorry I am me, but you know that story pretty well. The problem is I like Being Me. I also want to thank Chuck for his contribution. I am not one of the "Chronically Offended" and enjoy a lively discussion with 1911 gun fans. I hope you know that I do not intend to offend anyone ever. I am just used to getting to the point quickly perhaps from the guy that taught me how to write great Incident Reports on the last Job. I have been in the shop today and am putting up one just for De Tuner! Stand by for the Pictures and story of a day in the life of a retired 1911 pistolsmith.

 

[Old Fuff]

Given time, I could come up with some, where a jury found someone guilty because the gun had a "hair trigger," what ever that is - but you missed my point.

In examining the gun I didn't have to show that the trigger pull was too light or unsafe. All the lawyer needed was to have it determined that (1) the trigger had been modified after it left the factory, and (2) it MIGHT have been a contributing factor. The lawyer didn't have to go into how many ozs. the trigger pull was, only that it had been changed (and from his point of view, lessened) The jury wasn't concerned about the exact weight of the trigger pull either because it was a very rare jury-person that would have any idea what a particular pull should or shouldn't be.

I understand what you're saying about contractors being sued into the ground, and frankly, I'm on your side. But the issues are SLIGHTLY different because the contractor is usually sued because someone is questioning the quality of his work - right or wrong. A gunsmith can find himself in the middle of someone else's suit simply because he did the work, without a fair determination if the work was good or not. This is especially true if he finds himself up against an "expert" from the company that made the firearm. When "Mr. Company Expert" takes the witness stand and says, "I have examined the handgun identified as "Exhibit A" and find it has been modified outside of our factory and no longer meets our standards for safety," the jury will listen. After that the gunsmith (or whoever) is guilty until proven inocent. This is not right, but there are a lot of things going on in our legal system that aren't right.

 

[Dave Sample]

I would like to see some case numbers and where these trials were held. Maybe Mas would know. I have never heard of anything but rumors. I have been a member of the LEAA for many years and am a charter member of the Arizona County Attorneys' & Sheriffs' Association. I am sure this would make the news if it ever happened. BSBB, Old Fuff.

 

[1911Tuner]

Gentlemen...Time

Well, ladies and laddies....This one has shifted topics from strictly technical to legal and political...and it's probably not gonna get back on track.
Might be better to bring it to an end, since there's not much more than can be added to its technical points.

Dave...We cool. I understand ya better than ya think I do.

Jammer...Fuff is right on one point. A firearm that has been modified in any way that could be even mildly construed as being unsafe could very well be
fair game in the present political climate. 25 years ago, it wouldn't have been an issue...but things have changed. The Million Mom movement has seen to that. There are jurisdictions in which we can't drive to within 300
feet of a public school with a shotgun in the trunk, and the day may be coming when we can't have a firearm on private property if a minor child
resides there. Face facts...Guns are fast becoming taboo in this society,
and it wouldn't take a highly experienced lawyer to convince many juries
to find for the plaintiff in a reckless endangerment suit if the gun's firing mechanism were even lightly modified. A lawyer who is determined to win
his case or make his point often doesn't need to prove anything in order to ruin a man's life...All he has to do is create a doubt...a suspicion. Many a jury has been swayed in the eleventh hour. Also...understand that citing a
known case could reveal Fuff's true identity...and he can't do it. Can't.

As for light trigger actions on street pistols...I have to stand by my own convictions...and not for anything remotely close to legal or civil grounds.
My reasons are due to my own peculiar gun-handling techniques that work for me in a fight/flight scenario...many of which would be viewed with alarm
by knowledgeable folks. Simply put, it's a firing sequence in which the trigger pull begins as the gun clears leather rather than after the sights are aligned. Topic for another discussion if anyone feels the need.

Smoke'em if ya got'em!