Trouble grouping less than 3moa @ 100yards with AR

[dcrosle1]

I am averaging 3.5-4moa @ 100 yards using magpul MBUS sights from my 16" 1/7 chrome lined BCM with the free floated KMR rail using my range bag as a rest. I've used 69gr Winchester Match, and even 77gr Black Hills but can't seem to consistently shoot under 3moa.

The best group today was 2.5 inches with the Black Hills, all the rest were 3.5-4. It was a bit windy today however, and I tried to shoot when the wind wasn't blowing. I even had a flag down range to gauge the wind, so that might be a small factor.

I know it's most likely my lack of ability rather than the barrel and I plan to keep practicing. I focus on my sight picture, breathing, and trigger squeeze and it feels like Im doing everything right. I thought my groups should be a bit better since a lot of people claim to get around 1-1.5moa with Match Ammo at 100 yards.

Maybe if I try some more match ammo through a magnified optic and/ or with a better trigger I might get some better results, but right now I only have iron sights and the stock trigger to work with.

Any tips would be appreciated.

 

[1911 guy]

Dumb question, but what kind of groups do you usually shoot with other rifles? If you shoot 4 MOA with something else, you're going to shoot 4 MOA with the AR.

Secondly, if your rear sight has two apertures, are you using the smaller one? The larger one was specifically designed to be "minute of man" out to 200 meters, not for fine sight alignment. If your sight has only one aperture, it is likely to be the larger one, giving you no choice.

I feel your pain on the stock trigger thing. It's not the best trigger around, although I've seen some that weren't too bad. I've got a trade in the works for a Geissele SSA due to a super bad trigger on one of my rifles.

Are you resting the buttstock or pistol grip on the bench when shooting, keeping it in your shoulder or on a rear bag? Often, the rear pistol grip gets rested on the bench and causes some wiggle. Just a thought.

 

[dcrosle1]

Well my only other AR is my M&P sport and I haven't shot it in a while but I feel like it would shoot around the same, maybe even slightly better but I'll have to shoot them back to back next time to know for sure.

I use the smaller aperture when shooting.

I don't rest the stock or grip on anything. I keep the stock in my shoulder with as much as a consistent cheek weld as possibly while holding the grip firmly.

 

[Fla_dogman]

To tighten up the group you may need some magnification. Most battle sights are not that precise in my experience. My eyes won't let me do any better with those block type sights. Only pyramid (pointed) type sights allow me to shoot better at those distances.

 

[Fla_dogman]

That's why I've quit using BUIS altogether.

 

[sawdeanz]

I'm with you, I'm still fairly new to rifle shooting and was getting frustrated when I couldn't get the tiny groups most people claim. But then I accepted that it probably won't happen with iron sights at that distance unless you really know what you are doing. I really want to take an appleseed class before I start concerning myself too much with groupings. In the meantime I'm going to stop using the traditional target bulls eye which you can barely see at that distance to silhouette style targets. At least that way I can get a better idea of my practical abilities.

 

[Bartojc]

Your doing better than me with irons at 100 yards.

With similar sights and only a large aperture it's tough to get under 6" for me. 51 year old eyes don't help. At 50 yards I can group mostly under 3".

Magnification is in my future, and maybe yours as well.

-Jeff

 

[desidog]

What's your target? are you putting the front sight post into the center of a big black circle? If yes, try lining up the sight post with the bottom of the circle, where your eye can more finitely aim; or get a smaller target. I like to shoot at those bright orange price tag stickers; i shoot tighter groups at those than i do at a 9" black circle.

 

[morcey2]

What's your target? are you putting the front sight post into the center of a big black circle? If yes, try lining up the sight post with the bottom of the circle, where your eye can more finitely aim; or get a smaller target. I like to shoot at those bright orange price tag stickers; i shoot tighter groups at those than i do at a 9" black circle.

Or get a couple of the diamond-shaped targets. I use each point of the diamond as a different aimpoint if the diamond is large enough. Aim small, miss small.

Matt

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

Shooting groups with irons is not exactly the easiest thing to do. It requires good eyesight and better sights than what are usually found on AR15's. Using the right type of target is actually important too as the sight post can block out a lot of small targets making it hard to get a precise aiming point.

Also, 16 inch chrome lined barrels are not exactly world renowned for their accuracy. They usually hang around the 1 MOA mark with some being better and some worse. Chrome lining is best for reliability and ease of cleaning but can have a negative effects on accuracy.

 

[Whiskey11]

COLOSHOOTR - I partially disagree. Criterion has been making chrome lined barrels that do not lose much of anything to their unlined counterparts in terms of accuracy. They have perfected the method of coating the middle of the barrel where traditional chrome lining can have issues getting a good plating and they do a lot better prep in the throat area to avoid as much erosion there as possible. But in general, you are right.

 

[Jackal]

3moa with irons sounds pretty darn good to me, considering that the front sight post covers a 12moa area....

 

[fireman 9731]

I would be tickled pink if I could shoot 3moa with irons too. I think thats good for anybody with standard AR sights.

If you want more, you need an optic.

 

[tuj]

Put a scope on it to see how it really shoots, as others have said.

 

[carbine85]

3"-4" ain't all that bad when you consider a few things. You need to scope the rifle to determine what you and the rifle can do. Chrome lined barrels aren't known for their accuracy, they are known for durability.
Most likely your sights cover up at least 3-4" of your target, add a small amount of movement and your shooting 3"-5" groups.
A smaller rear sight and thinner front sight might help.
Good triggers go a long way.

 

[dcrosle1]

What's your target? are you putting the front sight post into the center of a big black circle? If yes, try lining up the sight post with the bottom of the circle, where your eye can more finitely aim; or get a smaller target. I like to shoot at those bright orange price tag stickers; i shoot tighter groups at those than i do at a 9" black circle.

I actually am holding the front sight just below the circle, (3in bright orange sticker on white paper)

I'll try a scope and see if that works. I did notice tighter grouping with the match ammo at 50 yards.

 

[MaterDei]

You probably aren't doing anything terribly wrong but to be safe why don't you ask another shooter to give your rifle a go. Always best to get a second opinion, so to speak.

 

[chicharrones]

I am averaging 3.5-4moa @ 100 yards using magpul MBUS sights from my 16" 1/7 chrome lined BCM with the free floated KMR rail using my range bag as a rest. I've used 69gr Winchester Match, and even 77gr Black Hills but can't seem to consistently shoot under 3moa.

The best group today was 2.5 inches with the Black Hills, all the rest were 3.5-4. It was a bit windy today however, and I tried to shoot when the wind wasn't blowing. I even had a flag down range to gauge the wind, so that might be a small factor.

Any tips would be appreciated.

In my case, I lower my expectations when shooting a gun equipped like that. What I mean by that is, I consider a 4" circle my target with no magnified optics at 100 yards. If I can get all my hits within that 4" circle, I consider it a great day.

 

[David4516]

3 MOA isn't bad with irons, especially the flip up ones

What might help you is a thinner front sight post. I installed one on my rifle and it helped me alot.

This is what I bought and it wasn't that long ago but now I see it's discontinued? Must not be a big seller?

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/844511/dpms-front-sight-post-square-050-wide-dcm-cmp-ar-15-matte

 

[readyeddy]

With the forend resting on a bipod or sand bag, rest the grip or stock on a sand bag. Squeeze the rear sand bag to adjust elevation. Done right, you can eliminate almost all tremors. This is how I test the gun for groups. If I want to test me, then I shoot from field positions.

Like others said, 3 moa isn't bad for a lot of us.

 

[agtman]

That's why I've quit using BUIS altogether.

It's the singer, not the song.

3 MOA isn't bad with irons, especially the flip up ones.

Agree.

Plus, unless his irons are loose and wobbly, more range time will tighten up those groups. Might try different ammo too. Dry-firing practice also helps improve basic marksmanship. Trigger manipulation is huge, frankly.

Playing Call of Duty most of the day, not so much.

 

[frgood]

I recommend an Appleseed weekend. It runs about $60 and is an incredible bargain. The weekend will put you an the best path towards rifle marksmanship. I cannot stress it enough. you will be shown exactly what you can and cannot do with your rifle and there will be several pleasant and trained folks to show you the best method(s).

 

[Tentwing]

Relax your doing great. I'm going to sound like a broken record on this thread, but if I was getting 3 inch groups at a hundred yards with iron sights I would be pretty happy. I probably would have been good with those results way back in the day when my eyes were good

The easiest way to tighten the groups on your rifle will be sight magnification.

Tentwing

 

[Flintknapper]

Agreed 3" with irons is not bad.

The problem with irons besides covering a lot of your target (even held 6 O'Clock sight picture) is that you can't see the small movement of the rifle attendant with breathing or even your heartbeat.

Magnification will reveal that. Also...for most folks (at distance) you simply can't shoot MOA if you can't see MOA.

Optics will let you shoot as good as the rifle is capable of (provided you do your part).

 

[USAF_Vet]

3 MOA (at 100 yards) with open sights is the military standard of acceptance for the M-16 family of rifles. With your build using a 16" carbine barrel, 3 MOA i still acceptable considering the 3 MOA acceptance was for 20" M16 rifles.

Still, your build and ammo are good enough that there's still ability to tighten up those groups if that's your desire. I'd drop in a better trigger and ditch the MBUS for something better, or a low magnification optic instead of open sights.