Trying to undestand gun registration

[accrhodes]

So, I'm a little confused. I have several different firearms, but alot of people around here say "they wont purchase a gun from wal-mart because they dont want it in their name" I have purchased several from wal mart - so I guess I have a few in my name, but the majority I have purchased are from individuals. My friends say, if the gov't was to ever ban firearms they would not be knocking on there door because "they dont have one in there name"


Can someone shed some light on this topic.


P.S. I live in Ohio

 

[rbernie]

The issue is not registration, because there is no formal Federal registration for anything that's not fully automatic. The issue is the Form 4473 that the federal gov't requires be used to document the sale, if the sale is done via a licensed dealer.

The fear that some hold is that the 4473 forms can be used to determine who owns the guns. The forms are NOT sent to the government by default, but are kept by the dealer. Only if the dealer ceases business are they required to then send the forms to the feds.

Private sales are not required (yet) to document the transfer. Thus, private sales are exactly that - private - and dealer sales are semi-private (the forms are accessible and searchable by the Feds but not given to them automatically).

 

[rcmodel]

Ever since the 1968 Gun Control Act, you have been required to fill out an ATF form 4473 and more recently, undergo an instant background check when buy any firearm from an FFL.

One could suppose that given enough time, bureaucracy, skull-duggery, and inclination, they could collect up and enter every one of those forms on a computer, if they haven't already, and have the name of every gun owner in the U.S.A. and the number of guns they had bought since 1968.

Could they, or would they?
It depends on how many layers of tinfoil you have on your hat.

I get all warm and fuzzy feeling when I can buy a gun I want from a private party with no form to fill out and no paper trail.

But in the grand scheme of things big government, if they want to outlaw guns, they will, and if it is against the law to go outside or use one, most law abiding gun owners won't.

It's already been proven in Europe, Canada, Australia, and all the communist countries and dictatorships all over the world over the last 100 years or so.

rc

 

[Radagast]

A gun you can't user is an old pipe.

Having personally had registered handguns confiscated here in Australia when they were made illegal with the stroke of a pen I have a good idea of what can happen.

When Semi auto rifles and shotguns were banned they were not registered prior to this in most states. Compliance with the law was estimated to be less than 50%, but the now illegal guns have not resurfaced, they can't be taken to a range to shoot, they can't be shown to visitors or kept where they can't be found, there is no point in shooting one on a country property - sound travels and rapid fire is rather distinct.

Even if you can find a place to shoot, you may find ammo is no longer available. After SKSs & SKKs were banned, 7.62 x 39 remained a popular round, sold be the crate. So the government banned the importation of mil-surp 7.62 x 39. If there hadn't been a few bolt action CZ rifles sold in that caliber they probably would have banned all importation of that round.

If you want your guns to remain tools instead of old pipes, then don't worry about where the bill of sale is kept, spend money supporting those who are getting results in rolling back unconstitutional restrictions. IIRC The Second Amendment Foundation funded the DC gun case, so send them a cheque. Better still get all your friends who think they will be fine, get them to register to vote and then visit your local legislators office to say why you registered to vote.

Those guys who talk about their 'off paper' guns need to realize they are simply ensuring that if the day comes that they so smugly anticipate, someone will give them up in a plea bargain to avoid jail time. '

When it comes to the time that they are knocking on doors, you have already lost your rights and you and your friends will quickly lose your freedom as well.

 

[Japle]

The fear that some hold is that the 4473 forms can be used to determine who owns the guns. The forms are NOT sent to the government by default, but are kept by the dealer. Only if the dealer ceases business are they required to then send the forms to the feds.

That's true. Just remember that the Feds don't have anything like the personnel to go through all the records that have been sent in, much less the records in gun stores all over the country. They don't computerize the records they have (according to an old buddy who works in the records office), so finding out who owns what would be a big problem.

Could they do it? Not without major additional funding.

I remember when they were looking for Son of Sam. They knew he used a Charter Arms .44 Bulldog. So they sent letters to every FFL in the country asking for the names of suspicious buyers of said wheelgun. I doubt they got much back, but that's still the level of record keeping the Feds have.

 

[dullh]

Does your friend also believe in black helicopters?

Paper 4473's are kept by the dealer and are subject to ATF audits. The dealer retains them for a period prescribed by law (I think 2 years for long guns and 5 years for handguns) then destroys them.

That's the reason why no dealer I know of would participate in the "computerized" 4473 offered last year. To big a possibility it may have become a de facto gun registry, located in or near Washington. While the current administration hasn't done anything gun related yet, they will. They have already demonstrated a disdain for individual liberty (Obamacare) and an arrogant disregard for law (Obama's snitch program - a white house email address for ratting out people who, through casual conversation or email correspondence, indicate they don't want socialized medicine). Gun confiscation is a natural for this kind of statism.

Times are changing and not for the better, where individual freedom and liberty are concerned...so in retrospect your paranoid friend may have a valid point.

 

[RDak]

Uh, IIRC, the Form 4473 must be kept by the FFL for a period of not less than 20 years.

 

[scottaschultz]

I get all warm and fuzzy feeling when I can buy a gun I want from a private party with no form to fill out and no paper trail.

And I get all warm and fuzzy when I see the dealer cut the seal on a brand new, never been out of the box gun.

I guess I will just take my chances!

Scott

 

[Sam1911]

there is no formal Federal registration for anything that's not fully automatic

Or a "Short-Barreled Rifle," "Short-Barreled Shotgun, "Any-Other-Weapon," sound suppressor, or a "Destructive Device."

-Sam

 

[dullh]

"Uh, IIRC, the Form 4473 must be kept by the FFL for a period of not less than 20 years. "

Learn to read written text. I said I think it's 2 and 5 years. And I bet it ain't 20 years. Geez.

 

[Oldslabsides]

I am a FFL and the period of "Not less than 20 years" is correct.

 

[RDak]

Sorry dullh, I should have posted the statute:

Sec. 178.129 -- Record retention.

* * * * *

(b) Firearms transaction record. Licensees shall retain each Form 4473 and Form 4473(LV) for a period of not less than 20 years after the date of sale or disposition. Where a licensee has initiated a NICS check for a proposed firearms transaction, but the sale, delivery, or transfer of the firearm is not made, the licensee shall record any transaction number on the Form 4473, and retain the Form 4473 for a period of not less than 5 years after the date of the NICS inquiry. Forms 4473 shall be retained in the licensee's records as provided in Sec. 178.124(b): Provided, That Forms 4473 with respect to which a sale, delivery or transfer did not take place shall be separately retained in alphabetical (by name of transferee) or chronological (by date of transferee's certification) order.

(c) Statement of intent to obtain a handgun, reports of multiple sales or other disposition of pistols and revolvers, and reports of theft or loss of firearms. Licensees shall retain each Form 5300.35 (Statement of Intent to Obtain a Handgun(s)) for a period of not less than 5 years after notice of the intent to obtain the handgun was forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer, as defined in Sec. 178.150(c). Licensees shall retain each copy of Form 3310.4 (Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers) for a period of not less than 5 years after the date of sale or other disposition. Licensees shall retain each copy of Form 3310.11 (Federal Firearms Licensee Theft/Loss Report) for a period of not less than 5 years after the date the theft or loss was reported to ATF.

For denied transfers, the FFL keeps them for at least 5 years. But for completed transfers, the FFL keeps them for at least 20 years.

For multiple handgun purchases, the FFL keeps the Form 3310.4 for at least 5 years.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

A physical description and serial number of the gun is written on the back of the 4473 (the part the dealer fills out). This would be gun registration of a sort. However, the BATFE would have to go to every dealer and look through every form.

In California where I used to live, a separate form is transmitted to the DOJ, and this is full gun registration.