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Tul Ammo Small Pistol Primers FTF

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by giggitygiggity, Jun 13, 2012.

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  1. giggitygiggity

    giggitygiggity Member

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    I have been using Tul Ammo small pistol primers in my .380 and 9mm loads. In both cases, I have been getting about 5-7% of the loads failing to firing on the first primer strike. Just about all of the ones that fail to fire the first time, go off on the second strike. For my .380, I am using a Bersa and the 9mm is a Sig P226. I am certain that the issue is not with the firearms as both of the firearms that I mentioned are well-made, especially the Sig and they both eat up factory ammo just fine. I am just wondering if anyone else has had issues with Tul Ammo primers. They were the cheapest and that's why I bought them. I'm hoping that I just got a bad batch. If this is common for Tul Ammo primers, I will be spending a couple extra bucks per thousand and getting CCI's as I have had great luck with them.
     
  2. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf member

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    Try seating them a little harder/firmer.. that's what I hear anyway.
     
  3. Otto

    Otto Member

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    Quality control at Wolf/Tula is spotty. Most lots are fine but some lots have duds.
    Suggest you buy small quantities or an American made primer instead. The savings are not worth the trouble as you are finding out.
    Wolf/Tula primers have unsupported anvils and seating them very firmly can help. But I've also seen where the anvils have fallen out completely....just depends on the batch.
     
  4. gamestalker

    gamestalker member

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    I've been loading for more than 30 yrs. and have yet to experience a FTF. So for what it's worth, I would say with certainty that your primers are not seated deep enough. Inertia from the firing pin striking is ever so slightly pushing the primer into the pocket, which is why the second strike is doing the trick. All it takes is a very small amount of forward movement when the FP lands to prevent detonation. If it isn't dead seated to the bottom of the pocket, FTF's are certain to be a problem. I have loaded with CCI's almost exclusively with maybe 5% Winchester. And although Winchester has never failed me, CCI's design produce a very distintive feel when they reach bottom. You should actually be feeling a slight amount of cam over when a primer reaches bottom. It's hard to actually apply a measurement to this process since not all primer brands are exactly the same depth. But if I were to put a number to it, I would say a good .004" bellow the case head is what CCI's and Win has functioned 100% for me at. But other primer brands may require a bit deeper depth to bottom out in the pocket. This can be even more of a problem with primer cups that may be slightly thicker, in which case the primer may need a slightly more rigid reaction to the FP strike.

    GS
     
  5. kingmt

    kingmt Member

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    I agree with gamestocker. You need to seat the primers deeper. Most 9mm anymore has crimped pockets. You should consider swageing them.

    Otto
    Do you even use Tula primers? They are my favorite primers.
     
  6. Hammerdown77

    Hammerdown77 Member

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    I had the same problem with my lot of Tula SPPs. Every magazine I'd have a couple that didn't fire. Even when primers were fully seated. This was in striker-fired guns. Can't recall I had one fail to ignite in my S&W 686, but I may just not be remembering.

    Never had that problem with their LPP. I sold off my remaining Tula SPPs and bought Federal.
     
  7. bds

    bds Member

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    Here's a comprehensive thread on why some of Tula SP primers failed to ignite - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=630512

    Conclusion based on my testing is that Tula SP primers have harder primer cups than CCI SP/Tula .223/SR primers which are supposed to have harder cups and some Tula SP FTF primers won't ignite even after multiple strikes. Interestingly, so far they have all ignited in small primer pocket 45ACP cases using Sig 1911/RIA 1911/M&P45/PT145.

    OTOH, I have yet to run into a Tula LP primer that failed to ignite.
     
  8. ny32182

    ny32182 Member

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    To summarize, Tulas are hard, and chances are your gun is just not striking them hard enough to light them 100%. If you have trigger jobs, you will probably need to go back to factory specs. If you do not, they are probably just not good for those guns.

    I've run 25k of them in Glock and M&P, and only had a very small handful of light strikes, all in the M&P.
     
  9. Jeff H

    Jeff H Member

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    Tula and Wolf are not the same company and in my experience, I don't find the QC spotty in either one.

    As mentioned, the most likely cause is that they aren't seated all the way.
     
  10. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    Same source/manufacturer, though.

    That's cuz they're just fine, most of the time. Personally, I shot 3k of the Tula SPP from two different lots without any problems, and then I had 10-12 duds in my last 1k. Seems like there are more complaints about Tulammo SPP on the forums, compared to the domestic brands.

    And, FTR, I agree OP is not seating, fully. So I'm not counting his issues as a QC problem.


    This isn't what I've found, but I'm using Wolf 223 primers. Maybe the Tula 223 were made to a different specification. I've tried the Wolf 223 primers in a Glock and an FNX just for kicks. I had over 30% failures to ignite in both handguns.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2012
  11. kingmt

    kingmt Member

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    I think 10-12 is the lot that I have.
     
  12. Uniquedot

    Uniquedot Member

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    I bought a case of them and they seemed fine in my 38's and 357's, but in the 9mm (pt111 pro) i used them in i had several FTF's. I also loaded a bunch in .380 acp and they were just fine with 0 FTF's (bersa thunder) so i loaded a bunch in 9x18 and again they were just fine. That Taurus 9mm never fails to fire with good ol American made primers though.
     
  13. JLDickmon

    JLDickmon Member

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    how old is the pistol?

    worn firing pin?
     
  14. giggitygiggity

    giggitygiggity Member

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    Thanks for the responses. I'll put a little more muscle and try seating them deeper. I'll stick with the CCI's after this bunch runs out as I haven't had any issues with CCI primers.

    Also, the Sig is essentially brand new (made in 2012 with less than 500 rounds down the pipe). The Bersa is about 2 years old. I am certain the issue is not with the pistols.

    Thanks for the responses. Hopefully the deeper seating does the trick until I can get the good CCI's.
     
  15. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    And if Tula had an "isolated issue" sometime least year, it sure would have been nice if the company had acknowledged it and been able to disclose the potentially affected lot numbers. This sort of thing is a big part of quality control and is necessary in order to have confidence in this kind of product.

    I had quite a bit of ammo loaded up with Tula primers when I started running into duds. I felt compelled to shoot up all my Tula-primered stock for plinking, even though some of it was loaded with painstakingly sorted brass and premium bullets. All the older stuff went bang. I'm 99% sure the current production is fine. It's obvious they know how to make primers. But I don't plan to see for myself. The savings aren't worth it for me, because it's not obvious to me that they know how to do quality control.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2012
  16. bds

    bds Member

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    GLOOB, I agree.

    I found some Winchester SP/LP primers at last gun show at a good price so I stocked up and now I have enough for several years with a "peace of mind".

    I will be using up the remainder of my Tula SP primers in 45ACP cases with small primer pockets for range practice loads as I have not experienced failures yet. :D
     
  17. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Member

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    All Wolf and Tula primers have been perfect for me except the Tula SPP's. I had used brass colored Wolf SPP's and really liked them. When I needed more, I was afraid to order Wolfs again because supposedly there was one bad batch of nickel-colored primers, about a year earlier (before Tula was ever sold here) with a high failure rate, and I was scared I would get some of the old ones. So I bought Tulas instead. Nickel colored, and a high FTF rate -- but that is mostly in a double-action revolver. If I seat them really hard, they work better. Tula and Wolf rifle primers and LPP's continue to work great.

    I can still use the Tula SPP for plinking ammo, especially for 9mm because my Hi-Power has a ridiculously strong hammer spring. I won't buy them again, but I will continue to buy all their other primers. (the SR primers will work just fine in pistol cartridges)

    They said it was an isolated issue, but my experience suggests otherwise. That's why they can't give lot numbers.
     
  18. bds

    bds Member

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    This is only a theory but I was suspicious whether the old Wolf SP primers with harder nickel/silver cups were relabeled and sold as "Tul Ammo" :scrutiny:

    I have read many "Tula" SP primer threads and only the nickel/silver colored SP primers were the culprits. Both Wolf and Tula LP primers I have experienced reliable ignitions with are bronze/brass colored.

    If I see bronze/brass colored Tula SP primers, I would gladly try them out, but only if the price difference is "significant" from Winchester.
     
  19. Jeff H

    Jeff H Member

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    I just checked my stash and I don't have anymore Tula SPP but I do have Tula 223Rem and LPP and they are both brass colored.

    Of the loaded ammo I have, I think I only used Tula SPP in 9mm for a Ruger SR9 that has a reasonably strong striker spring so that may be a contributing factor.


    Interesting thought to ponder: I load on a LCT. Maybe the reason I have never experienced any issues is because you pull the press handle 3-4 times for each round and consequently can seat the primer several times as well... I have heard that Russian primers are a smidge larger than US primers, but I have never measured them.
     
  20. bds

    bds Member

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    Been there and done that on this thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7810685#post7810685

    Tula SP along with other brand primers were seated to typical .004" below flush and crush depth .008" below flush and Tula SP primers still resulted in FTF.

    [​IMG]



    More on seating primers - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7813399#post7813399
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2012
  21. kingmt

    kingmt Member

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    bds
    Maybe you are seating them to far. I don't measure. I just seat by fell & use my finger nail to confirm also.
     
  22. bds

    bds Member

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    kingmt, the various primer testing done on the other thread was to demonstrate that I gave Tula SP primer a fair and objective assessment to identify why I experienced primer failures.

    The .004" and .008" comparison was done in response to those that suggested that I did not seat the primer "deep" enough to set the anvil against the priming compound. I used the .008" below flush to ensure the anvil was set against the priming compound more than enough and compared with the proper seating depth of .004". BTW, Tula SP primers were also tested seated flush, .004" and .008" below flush with similar results (I even used a brand new G22 to rule out weak striker spring) so I attribute the FTF root cause to something else (my conclusion is harder primer cup - see bottom comparison picture on this post of CCI 400 SR and Tula SP primer cup indentations).

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Paper cups that seal the priming compound and different anvil tips
    [​IMG]


    CCI and .223 military primers are supposed to have harder primer cups. The comparison picture below shows fired primers out of the same G22. Note that CCI 400 SR primer on the left shows shallow indentation and Tula SR/.223 primers shows deeper but still shallower indentation compared to Tula SP indentations.

    [​IMG]

    Two failed to ignite Tula SP primer indentations and two fired Tuia SP primer indentations.
    [​IMG]


    In the end, comparison testing with harder cup CCI primers and .223/SR primers indicated that Tula SP cup hardness along with other factors may be the underlying reasons why I am experiencing FTF. Comparison picture below of fired CCI 400 SR primer and failed to fire Tula SP primer shows similar indentation depth yet the CCI primer fired. Perhaps CCI primer's different priming compound, anvil tip shape/height and pre-set anvil feet length may have allowed the primer to fire even with the harder cup when Tula SP primer did not.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2012
  23. bds

    bds Member

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    Oops, duplicate post.
     
  24. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf member

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    bds did some good work there.
     
  25. kingmt

    kingmt Member

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    If I remember I believe they didn't fire on a second strike ether. Can't remember if you tried the same case in a different gun thay had less failures tho.
     
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