Tumblers? Tumblers?! Maybe we don't need no stinkin' tumblers

[hdwhit]

Attached is a photograph of five cartridge cases reflecting the results of an informal test I did over the weekend after seeing that the Hornady manual (4th Edition) mentions washing or tumbling cartridge cases in a dilute solution of vinegar as part of case preparation.

A - Placed in a bucket with 1 teaspoon Lemishine, a few drops of detergent and 1 quart of water and agitated for 30 second every 10 minutes for 30 minutes, rinsed thoroughly and then air dried.
B - Placed in a bucket with 2 ounces vinegar, a few drops of detergent and 1 quart of water and agitated for 30 seconds every 10 minutes for 30 minutes, rinsed thoroughly and then air dried.
C - Same as A but placed in a tumbler with walnut shell media for 4 hours.
D - Same as B but placed in a tumbler with walnut shell media for 4 hours.
E - Uncleaned, untumbled case included as a reference.

The tumbled cases are brighter, but only marginally so. I will be doing additional tests as I refine my case processing, but considering the cost of a tumbler and the media and the considerable investment in time required, I am starting to wonder whether I would be just as well off to skip tumbling except perhaps as a way to remove wax-type resizing lubricant.

I would be interested in hears the experience others have had with using weak acids (Lemishine is predominately citric acid, vinegar is acetic acid) to restore shine to brass in place of or in conjunction with tumbling using various media.

Thanks.

 

[Jmoreno88]

i use lemishine/dawn in a wet tumblr and it far exceeds any tumbling ive used before. Dry media with polish gets pretty close but I prefer wet tumbling

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[USSR]

The results from wet tumbling with stainless steel pins and LemiShine and Dawn detergent will blow you away. My dry tumbler is only used now to remove the spray on lube after resizing.

Don

 

[X-Rap]

I can't get my head around all the water and making sure the cases are dry.

 

[PCCUSNRET]

I clean my brass the same as Don except I add a cap full of NuFinish polish to the corn to keep the brass looking good several months longer. Most of this is not required, just part of the hobby for me as I only shoot and reload for enjoyment.

 

[Hanshi]

"Shiny" doesn't mean squat to me. I just want the cases CLEAN, not necessarily shiny. I have a vibrating "tumbler" and a 45 year old Thumbler Tumbler; the vibrating one is for brass but the Thumbler is for tumbling cast lead ball for my flintlocks.

 

[Jmoreno88]

I can't get my head around all the water and making sure the cases are dry.

i used to think the same thing but its not really as bad as it sounds. when they're done i just rinse them and throw them in a box to dry, vegas is usually pretty hot so drying doesn't take long but I have enough brass where I don't have to clean and reload at the same time

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[salpal48]

There are many Chemicals to clean or Polish Brass. Many years ago I had a Commercial loading and cast Bullet shop. Media Took to long . Pins 2 that time were new and separating was difficult.
We used Chromic Acid. . . i had several 40lb tumblers . . 1/4 tea spoon Of the red Chromic Powder with 5 gals of water , Cleaned and polished in one easy step.
Great to clean

 

[reddog81]

All that sounds like a lot of work. A little hot water and the optional soap will work as good as anything as far as I'm concerned. Let it sit for a couple minutes, drain and let dry. You can wipe them off with a towel if they've got soot on the case.

 

[hdwhit]

i use lemishine/dawn in a wet tumblr and it far exceeds any tumbling ive used before.

All of these were exposed to lemishine or vinegar. Two samples were subsequently dry tumbled. Of the four, the one soaked in lemishine was the least shiny of the four. The vinegar produced a more vibrant shine on both samples where it was used.

 

[hdwhit]

The results from wet tumbling with stainless steel pins and LemiShine and Dawn detergent will blow you away.

I have purchased cases wet tumbled with stainless steel pins, Lemishine and Dawn for four hours from Aardvarkreloading.com (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A45HdldSxxo). While clean and shiny, it was no more clean and was actually less shiny than the cases soaked in vinegar for 30 minutes and then tumbled in walnut media for 4 hours.

 

[armarsh]

There are many Chemicals to clean or Polish Brass. Many years ago I had a Commercial loading and cast Bullet shop. Media Took to long . Pins 2 that time were new and separating was difficult.
We used Chromic Acid. . . i had several 40lb tumblers . . 1/4 tea spoon Of the red Chromic Powder with 5 gals of water , Cleaned and polished in one easy step.
Great to clean

http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9925764

I don't see any compelling reason to use a chemical like this when Citric and Acetic acids are effective, safe and cheap.

 

[hdwhit]

"Shiny" doesn't mean squat to me. I just want the cases CLEAN, not necessarily shiny.

Since the reflective index of copper oxide, zinc oxide, dirt, soot and other contaminates is less than that of unoxidized brass, the degree of shine may be taken as a reasonable proxy for "clean". After all, "clean" must mean the absence of anything other than the brass case itself, and would thus include the oxides, sulfides and nitrides that form on the surface of the case.

 

[hdwhit]

All that sounds like a lot of work. A little hot water and the optional soap will work as good as anything as far as I'm concerned.

Actually, the "work" to get to exhibits "A" and "B" is simply to add either a teaspoon of Lemishine or a splash of Great Value vinegar to the hot water and detergent you're already using.

 

[hdwhit]

We used Chromic Acid. . .

And I'm sure you got great and rapid results, but how readily available is Chromic Acid or its precursors to the average home reloader?

Lemishine and Vinegar can be purchased at the local grocery store and used safely to reduce surface oxidation on brass cases even in undiluted form.

 

[hdwhit]

...vegas is usually pretty hot so drying doesn't take long

People in places like Houston or New Orleans will not have the same experience as you do in the desert.

To accelerate drying in a humid climate, set your oven for 225, stack two baking sheets one nested within the other (this creates an air gap between them so that temperatures remain more uniform) and spread your brass out on the top baking sheet on top of parchment paper (available in any decent grocery store, including most Wal-Marts) and then "bake" the brass for about twenty minutes. Remove and let stand until cool to the touch. A setting of 225 will not impact the chemical or mechanical properties of the brass but will greatly speed up drying out the moisture.

 

[thomas15]

I have to say that I would like to have my brass as nice as those who wet tumble with SS pins. However, I do my work in an unheated garage that doesn't have plumbing. So wet tumbling would be a lot of extra work for me and I already have a vibratory tumbler so that's what I use.

My tumbler is from one of the big names in handloading and costs about $80.00 After about 2 years of very hard use it stopped working. I sent it to the mfg and three weeks later a new one appeared at my doorstep, free of charge.

I do the once in a while cap full of NU Car finish and mineral spirits. It eliminates the dust and does a fairly nice job of polishing, actually it's not bad! But the main thing is it's dry and for those of us who don't want to or cannot wet clean/tumble it's probably the best method. For rifle I clean the primer pockets for every pc of brass and I will admit that it would be nice to omit that step and I believe wet tumbling would do this for me. Maybe someday.

BTW, my company (an electronics mfg) uses ceramic insulators in our products and many of those need to be tumbled. We have a 15 year old Thumblers vibratory that gets used about 4 hours/day or more every day and it really does the job. Not and endorsement but just saying.

 

[hdwhit]

I have to say that I would like to have my brass as nice as those who wet tumble with SS pins. However, I do my work in an unheated garage that doesn't have plumbing. So wet tumbling would be a lot of extra work for me and I already have a vibratory tumbler so that's what I use.

What I have learned so far is that putting brass in a bucket (preferably with a lid) and a quart of water and two ounces of vinegar (doubling as needed for larger volumes of cases) and then agitating it for a few seconds every ten minutes or so for half-an-hour produces a finish on the brass that is not a whole lot different from other methods of case preparation.

Can you do more work and employ more technology and get marginally better results? Yes. But if you're looking at it from a shine (or cleanliness, which shine is taken as a proxy for) standpoint, a half-hour exposure to Vinegar or Lemishine plus detergent with minimal agitation so far seems - at my present stage of testing - to be the optimal combination of shine, effort and time.

 

[Da Yooper]

I can't get my head around all the water and making sure the cases are dry.

For me

I like my cases clean

my tumbler does the job

if the cases do not air dry

I put them in the dehydrator & in a hour or less I am good to go

no problem.........O

 

[thomas15]

I appreciate what you are saying.

 

[Jmoreno88]

All of these were exposed to lemishine or vinegar. Two samples were subsequently dry tumbled. Of the four, the one soaked in lemishine was the least shiny of the four. The vinegar produced a more vibrant shine on both samples where it was used.

exposed as in just sat in lemishine or agitated some how? Ive tried sitting it in a bucket without using the tumbler but its not anywhere near as good having them tumbled with the lemishine

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[475]

The tumbled cases are brighter,...

That's funny. Too me, just going by the photo, "B" looks the most shiny, followed by A, D, and C, in that order. Though some look so close that it probably isn't worth mentioning.

 

[475]

I would be interested in hears the experience others have had with using weak acids (Lemishine is predominately citric acid, vinegar is acetic acid) to restore shine to brass in place of or in conjunction with tumbling using various media.

I wet tumble the same as Jmoreno88 and USSR; Lemi Shine, Dawn, Water, SS pins and the brass cases. I love it, but then I'm a freak about my brass having a mirror finish with perfectly cleaned primer pockets (I decap before tumbling).

This is all fairly new to me in that this is the only way of tumbling I've ever used. I can see the pros and cons both ways and until very recently didn't know if I made the right choice for myself. The main reason I didn't go with a vibratory tumbler is dust. I friggin hate dust. I wasn't too thrilled with the thought of dealing with water either but after working with a wet tumbling process for a number of loads now I actually have no complaints and it's not near as big a deal as I thought it would be, and plus, NO DUST!

The other part of it for me compared to some others is that I load within my main household living quarters as opposed to a garage/basement/shed/dedicated room. So cleanliness is more important to me than need be for others.

I don't see separating the SS pins anymore work than separating from corncob or walnut media but I may be more thorough than some as I like to inspect each cleaned case for a 2 second once over for each case after tumbling. Plus, the SS pins I use are magnetic and makes for easy handling as opposed to having to be swept up or vacuumed.

Drying afterword is fairly simple too. I see other's use the sunshine, ovens or some sort of air dryer. I just do a final hot rinse of the brass after media separating and inspecting, shake them well over a sink, and then lay them out on a towel that I rub around on them for a couple seconds till they're dry on the outside. I don't really have a timed drying time for the inside of the cases before I store them away or whatever, just sometime after a few hours or more, when I feel like it, I do whatever needs to be done with them.

I've toyed around with tumbling times. If the brass is fairly clean to begin with 40 minutes to an hour will have the brass generally clean if not very shiny already. If the brass it filthy and tarnished 2-3 hours does a pretty good job. But if I let it go for 6 hours it gets noticeably more shiny and at 12 hours even more mirrorish finish. I haven't gone beyond 12 hours yet. I might with the brass that's in the tumbler tumbling right now.

I am surprised how quiet it is. It makes sound for sure. But it's not loud per se, and it's a soothing sound as opposed to an obnoxious one IMO. Kind of like listening to flowing water over rocks but different. And it doesn't try to move around at all. Not sure if the vibratory ones do or not.

Some people use the wet mixture for a number of separate tumbling loads. I change it out completely every time. It may not matter to a degree but I'm always amazed at how filthy the water is after each time even when I didn't think the brass was that dirty to begin with and I don't see it as a big deal to change it out every time anyway.

Half the battle is deciding on a specific tumbler model. I chose the Lortone QT12. Others choose the Thumler's Tumbler Model B, Extreme Rebel 17, Frankford Arsenal Rotary Tumbler, RCBS Sidewinder, and others.

No doubt one way of tumbling doesn't work for everyone. Luckily we have options that cover most people's wants and needs. For me the wet tumbling is the way to go. No regrets so far.

 

[GBExpat]

... I would be interested in hears the experience others have had with using weak acids (Lemishine is predominately citric acid, vinegar is acetic acid) to restore shine to brass in place of or in conjunction with tumbling using various media. ...

I used citric or acetic acid solution as a case pre-"shiner" for many years prior to even owning a "tumbler". It made them shinier but not cleaner.

For years I was in the corncob media in a vibratory case cleaner phase, while still doing the "pre-shiny" step.

Awhile back I comfortably settled into the wet tumbler w/ss pins mode (ArmorAllW&W+citric acid) and cannot imagine a better solution to produce almost-new-looking, tarnish-resistant brass.

 

[FiveInADime]

When I tried vinegar it worked but the cases would end up tarnished. Doesn't happen with the citric acid.

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