Tuner: Got A Nork that Needs Checking

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I know ya have, Dean...and it looks like Kart and Caspian have gotten together on their specs. Kudos to'em...but if things ain't exactly in the groove, there can be problems.

AFAI can tell, Kart assumes that the slide will be fairly perfectly in-spec...and that the vertical dimensions from slidestop pin centerline to the inside tops of the slide's lug slots are likewise. If so, the Easy-fit is good to go as per instructions. It also seems to be designed to fit horizontally to the first lug...the strongest one. Not the stoutest lockup in the world, but it'll do for standard pressure.45 ACP ammo.

But let's assume for a minute that the slide isn't truly in-spec in all aspects.
Say...The #2 lug is a little too far rearward...about .003 inch out of spec.
Let's also assume that a given barrel has #2 lug located just a wee bit too far forward. In-spec, but right on the peg.

When the overlength hood is cut to allow the barrel to just enter the slide, it doesn't bear against the #1 lug. It's fitted to #2...a weaker, less supported lug. Let's also assume that lug 1 is also kissin' air, and therefore offer no
help in bearing the brunt of the pressure when the round fires. Guess what will happen to Lug #2...That's right. It will deform rearward...set back. As the setback occurs, the slide will move farther and farther from the barrel when the gun is fired. Headspace begins to grow. If we're lucky, the air space in front of lug(s) 1 and 3 is very slight...maybe .002 inch or so. As #2
sets back enough to let one of the others take a share of the shock load, things get stronger. Headspace is still good, if it was close to minimum to start with. If the gap is larger...say .005 or .006 inch, the lug will continue to deform and set back...and will likely crack or shear. NOT good.

Now, let's move to vertical lug engagement and assume that instead of full engagement, the vertical stackups only allow about .030 inch of engagement and overlap when the E-Z Fit pads allow the gun to go into battery. (Same gun) Tight vertical lock...but only a little more than half the available surface area to contain all that pressure. Imagine two hammer heads being slammed together dead on-center. Then imagine them being slammed together off-center by 50%. In this gun, the load-bearing lug will deform twice as fast as another gun with one lug bearing, but with full depth...and about three times as fast as another gun with the strongest lug bearing...#1.

Let's also assume...just for the sake of debate...that our boy has decided to try jumping into .45 Super ballistics. After all...He's got a bank-vault lockup...Right? Guess what'll happen after about 500 rounds of that stuff. Even if the lug doesn't crack or shear...which it likely will if the airspace between the two that don't help is larger than about .003 inch...The headspace will increase at an accelerated rate, and what started out as near-minimum will quickly reach maximum. Another hundred rounds, and he'll start noticing slightly bulged cases ahead of the web...and shortly afterward, he'll probably blow one out...at .45 Super pressures. A .45 ACP blowout is bad. .45 Super would probably be catastrophic. Scary stuff.

Now then...If you don't gauge the slide to determine exactly where the lugs are...How are ya gonna know what kind of fit you're gettin' with your new match-grade barrel? If you do gauge it, you can determine how to fit for
equal lug engagement, and reap the benefits of the strongest lockup that the Colt-Browning design will provide...assuming that you also have full vertical engagement...which you might get with the E-Z Fit, and you might not...unless all is well within-spec...which many slides aren't. Caspian notwithstanding, I'd guess that you'll not likely find one in ten that will allow full depth AND equal horizontal engagement on even two lugs with a given barrel without some adjustment.

At any rate...Even with only .030 inch in the vertical...if you have all three taking an equal share of the force, you still have a total engagement area equal to two lugs with .045 inch each...or 90% of full depth with one lug...and one of those is the most supported lug...#1...which is probably
equal to 90% of the strength of the other two combined.

Clear as mud?:cool:
 
I am a pretty precise guy. I measure everything and use a marking pen to check lock up. I would bet my major PF (old requirement) .38 Super loads were/are higher pressure than most .45 Super ones. (I am also precise about loading with my 650.) I still would not put a $200 Kart barrel in a $200 pistol - especially if it was out of spec. The Norinco chrome barrel is easy to clean and with a "national match" bushing and a clean up of the throat it will give very good functional accuracy in my opinion. I would raid my spare parts drawer and try to limit my self to $75 new spending on up grades to a Norinco - just another way of thinking about this.

Dean
[email protected]
410-952-7848
 
Precision

Howdy Dean,

No argument that the OEM Nork barrels provide decent accuracy. Fully up to any reasonable field requirements in a non-match situation. I've seen it in too many of'em to say otherwise.

A few points on this particular pistol.

First, was the nifty Tripp chrome plate job. It's a beautiful gun, and the chrome really tightened up the clearances, not only making it feel like a new pre-war (WW2) pistol that had been carefully assembled at Colt...but one that also would resist corrosion better than any stainless pistol out there.
I have my own reasons for that...Speculate if you wish.

Second...I dunno where you buy your Kart barrels...but I only paid about 95 bucks for mine. I won't count shipping because I had several items in the order that amounted to nearly 800 dollars. I already had the links and pins on hand.

Third...Out-of-specness/dimensional variation is part of the reason that hard-fit barrels are designed they way they are...to compensate for the tolerance stacks and provide a good fit. Ditto for bushings and the like.

Fourth...Again, I liked the pistol for various reasons, not all of which are purely practical. (I do respond to certain kinds of "Bling".) It was unusual...but the fit of the OEM barrel only provided about .035 inch of vertical engagement...on one lug. It wouldn't have lived long in that condition. The gun had been fired only a few hundred rounds, but was already showing signs of slap-seating and lug deformation. Typical of most Norincos, the headspace was close to max to start with, and it wouldn't have taken much more than another thousand rounds to push it over the limit. I'm just not comfortable with that...even though the over-generous headspace was more related to the chamber being cut too deep rather than
going in the other direction. Match-grade accuracy wasn't my goal in this barrel upgrade. That it turned out to be a side-effect was icing on the cake...but my main reason for doing it was strength and longevity. If it had shot no better or no worse than the stock barrel, I would still be happy with it.

A good example of this is noted in the heroic but fruitless effort that Dave made in attempting to salvage a Norinco barrel that he got from a THR member a while back. He cleaned up the damage and reworked the barrel throat...but the lugs were set back nearly .025 inch...and that threw the headspacing clear off the scale with...IIRC...about .045 inch total. That's over double the maximum allowable.

Not also that...even though I've done it...that grinding the chrome off the throat of a fully hard-chromed barrel will probably result in the rest of the chrom peeling off in the chamber and possibly causing problems down the road that would require more work...but would eventually work its way into the bore. It's a short-term fix that I'll do on a gun that I either plan on rebarrelling at some point...or that the owner plans for.

Note also that Norinco barrels are typically the same diameter from forward of the third lug to the muzzle and fitting a tight bushing doesn't usually allow for sufficient clearance for barrel tilt. (Remember the problem that the Norinco owner had with unlocking and linkdown after Dave fitted the bushing?) So...There's a limit to how tight that bushing can be on a Nork barrel, assuming that wringing the most accuracy out of it possible is the goal.

If the Tripp-ed Nork hadn't been plated, I could have reduced a lot of the vertical stacking issue by simply swaging the frame rails down and refitting...
and used an Easy-Fit Kart...but I didn't want to damage the plating, and because it would've been a real chore to remove the plating from the rails and the area just under them on the frame to refit it. So I went with a
hard-fit barrel...and I'm well satisfied with the results. The Norinco frames and slides are as tough as a chunk of pig iron. With full, equalized lug engagement, this gun should take a lickin' and keep on tickin'.

In the final analysis...If cost was always the issue, nobody would even consider sinking 2500-3500 dollars into a full custom pistol that essentially does the same job as a decent Colt or Springfield. Hell...If I wanted to carry a "Top Gun", and didn't mind it costing 3,000+ in long green...I'd just carry my
Union Switch and be done with it. All steel...sub 4-inch sandbagged groups at 50 yards with good ammo...Dead reliable...and the OOOH! AHHH! factor amongst 1911 buffs would cause a scene in most circles. (Not to mention that they'd also think I was nuts and that Dana Kamm would probably put out a contract on me.):D
 
I do my lock ups at .048 to .052. I agree that .035 is not adaquate. I am only an amatuer metal smith who builds Custom Caspians for myself. I only do limited repair/upgrade work on my own guns so I must defer to Tuner who is a busy professional with extensive repair and upgrade experience for other people especially with Norincs that he frequently describes here. As I have stated Norincos are very rare here.

Dean
[email protected]
410-952-7848
 
Norks

Nah...Ain't been a pro in about 15 years. I do stay busy though...but it ain't on Norincos so much as Springfields that flat won't run. Dang Micro that belongs to kartracer near drove me over the edge.:cuss: :banghead:

Norincos are gettin' pretty scarce around here too. Not that they're not here...Just that nobody is willin' to turn'em loose. I was hopin' to get an even hundred for the research, but I may have to settle for what I've got, unless Ted (aka ulflyer...aka Duke of Nork) keeps findin' more.:cool:

I've got five of'em myself. All bought within the past year or so. They're out there, Dean...Ya just gotta ferret'em out.
 
I see them quite often NIB for sale up here. I saw three last week. But I know at least one was sold.

Used ones are rarer. Seems people who buy them keep them.
(Or perhaps they're all being "smuggled" down into the Confederacy.)

I have a dealer who swears he knows where there is a large supply of all things Norinco. :scrutiny: Says he has no problem getting as many as he wants. Of course his prices are obscene.

I often wonder if the proximity of the Canadian border has any influence on the number of new ones I see?


Just what is a NIB Norinco 1911A1 actually worth?
 
Norks Norks Norks

Bear...I think you mighta hit it on the proximity of the border. I've noticed that the sightings around here seems to ebb and flow with the hunting trips to Canada during the season. Good ol' American black market is alive and well it seems...:p

The value also rises and falls with the individual pistol. NIB/LNIB/EC examples bring as much as 450-500 bucks. A little steep IMO...but there it is. Supply/Demand drives the market, no matter which commodity you trade. Used pistols have been bought for as little as 150-175 dollars in private transactions to as high as 400 in a shop...Again, depending on overall condition and/or whether or not the potential buyer is able to spot any obvious problems...which some do have. I bought one of mine for 225...
Clean/Mean/and Green...the best way to get one, IMHO.:cool: (Actually bartered for one of my five. Used pistols in shops are gettin' more scarce every year.

The simple truth is, that there's a blue million of'em out there somewhere. I
tend to think that if a man can't find one, he ain't beatin' the bushes
hard enough.
 
Norks vs 1991A1

Re' Nork prices, I've paid as little as $300 and up to $400, the latter simply being my limit. One exception was the Chromed Pimp Machine that Johnny now owns...was a trade within a trade thing where I got caught up with the glitter and paid way too much.

Lately tho, I'm beginning to get interested in 1991A1's. Picked up a second one the other evening for $475, used but clean. If I can find them for the prices that Norks are climbing too, I might as well buy Colts. :)
 
My First Gun...a Norinco 1911!

Couple years ago while visiting my brother in Arkansas we went shooting.
(I live in a Chicago suburb)...During the shoot he asked me if I had anything for home protection? I said not really. Then he handed me a 'NORINCO' 1911 .45 and said "This is Yours". I said "Thanks ALOT!!!!:) "
He got the Norc in a multi gun deal. It looked like a new gun, not a mark on it! Having been a cylinder head porter for automotive race engines I can tell someone has blended what I think is called the ramp. It also has a Wilson brl.& bushing, Millet adj. sites and wooden Wilson grips but he didn't give any magazines with the gun. He told me to get 'Wilson' magazines but I got three 8 round Kimbers bcuz thats all the gun shop had at the time.
With help from 1911 type internet sites I've learned how to completely disassemble - assemble this sidearm.
I noticed the underside of the slide has the last 4 digits of the serial # scribed in it.
I've heard about and seen automatic pistols jamming. I've tried to make my Norc jam by holding it loosly and by shooting fast I can pull the trigger but it won't jam.

-The only slip up it has is after 100 rounds or so with an empty chamber, and the slide back I'll install a full 8round mag, then push down the slide release to allow the slide to push the 1st round off the mag and chamber the round. What happens is the slide moves forward slightly and stops failing to push the round off the mag. If I remove 1 round from the 8 round magazine the slide will chamber a round fine and work fine from there. This happens with hollow points only as RN work fine. This doesn't really bother me as I usually load 7 into my 8 rd. mags.

--What is a 'contract barrel'?
--What is a 'kart barrel' ?
Thank yous
 
I disagree with those who do not want to put $200 barrel in their Norinco. There is hobby satisfaction in rebuild. I have sporterized Mod 96 and Mod 98 Mausers. Money can't be recovered, but I had fun. My brother's Patrriot is the best handgun I have fired. I can't aford class. I'l; bet he can't sell for what is invested. STI and Brown are excellent. I can't work slide on Les Baer. Don't condem me or others who enjoy hobby rebuilds. Those who do it know the money is not retrievable. [email protected]
 
Ya'll pray for me,I'm gonna try to see Tuner later this week about the micro-what a wrath it may be bring:uhoh:
 
I guess as in most things it all depends on how one wants to spend his/her disposable income and how much one has.

By the way the Norinco Dave rebuilt and has pictures up on his forum has a lockup of .052.

Dean
[email protected]
410-952-7848
 
Income

I still dunno where this talk of 200 dollars for a barrel came from. I got mine through Brownells for less than a C-note.:confused: Seems like the hard-fit was a little cheaper than the Easy-Fits...and I gave like 95 bucks a copy for those...

Somebody's rippin' you off Dean.:uhoh:
 
I buy my barrels direct from Kart - Kart National Match EZ fit barrel and bushing. I do not get a discount.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=7611&title=1911+AUTO+EASY+FIT+BARREL+KIT

I checked the Brownells web site and they charge $165 for the Kart EZ fit .45ACP barrel and the installation kit is $40. I only had to buy the kit the first time. I have tried to paste the URL page above. I do not get a discount from Brownells as I am not a professional with an FFL .

The installation kit makes for an easier higher quality result. I still consider the name EZ Fit a misnomer.

$165 plus $40 equals $205.

Dean
[email protected]
410-952-7848
 
re:

Ah! Okay. I still get the discount. Didn't need the kit, since I used the same techniques and tools as I would have for a hard-fit barrel...except for the top down part. Brownells lists the EZ-Fit at 132 dollars. Seems like the
hard fit was a little less. Don't really remember....It was part of about an 800-dollar order.

Wuzzup with that link on the EZ-fIT? Slidestop pin hole is .210 inch diameter...:confused: :confused:
 
Found two Norincos at the show this past weekend.

One for $475 but is has a laser mounted on the triggerguard. (removeable of course) The guy said he would listen to offers. WhHich means he'll take less.

Another that looked dead mint to me but the owner swears has been fired 50 times for $435. (That's his price to me since he knows me. It was marked higher.)

Now for the record, I'm not interested in buying them. I was just getting prices to compare the Seattle area with other locations.

Used Springfields go for a little more out here but the Armscor produced guns, (Armscor, Daly, Rock Island, High Standard go for a little less)
 
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