Mr. Hill
Member
I like the choppers, too! Never seen carbines like those. It would be cool to try one out and see what the recoil was like.
Tunnel Rat Weapon
- Thread starter kBob
- Start date
- Status
Jim Watson
Member
Like this one?
Or
First pic is of a commercial "underfolder" stock. Looks like evidence tags and picture of hippy dippy insurrectionists.
Second one is what Mullin showed as the Advisor Gun.
kBob
Member
Both Universal and Plainfield made PGO carbines that were considered pistols with 10.5 to 11.5 inch barrels. Recoil was not bad at all but you could feel that heavy op rod moving during each shot.
One brand was called "Enforcer" and the type was generally referred to as that on civy street
Can't imagine a field cut down carbine was any worse recoil wise. Notice that most are just cut down standard Carbine stocks whittled into a nice shape. I must admit I rather like the M1A1 with the shortened barrel, one would have to do so relief work inside the stock to allow for the selector if an M2 were used in this mod
In that collage starting on the upper left, notice that carbine has a full length barrel and the stock appears to be the Plainfield Para Stock from a civilian gun. It had a wire stock much like the M3A1 grease gun that collapsed into those humps along the sides of the Pistol gripped stock.
The picture of the Carbine from Patty Hurst and the SLA is of an "MP40" or folding AK type also of civilian make. Federal made a version of this stock that had three legs rather than the two seen here that was some what more stable but I think those three legged (Two on one side and one on the other, automatically turned butt plate correctly) ones came out after the war.
These sawed off carbines get beat up by folks......A number of Police in the 1968 riot season had them and the press identified them as submachine guns and an indication of how evil the cops were. Even Warren Zevon was appearently confused by them as in Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner (talking about the man) he sings "Patty Hurst heard the burst of Roland's Thompson gun and bought it." This appearently in reference to the famous photo of Ms. Hurst holding the gun pictured above.
As a kid in the 60's I shot one of the Enforcers and rather liked it for funsies but recognized that the ability to shoot a PGO gun should be immediately followed up with the ability to open a folding stock and get serious. I had a GI M1 carbine from age 14 so knew what they could do and the PGO model could only do that up real close. Beyound 7 to 10 yards I wanted my full stock.
On the other hand something like the cut down Carbine in the M1A1 stock or even the "Schmisser" stock (I know but folks called MP38/40's that) was very attractive and I don't think the phrase Personal Defense Weapon (did Jane's come up with that) had even been thought of yet. I mean a full sized M1/2 weighs but 5.5 pounds empty and here ya go lopping half a foot off the barrel and a good bit of walnut off the butt and it sure is a handy size.......viola ....PDW.
Maybe if the Hearing Protection Act goes through we should lobby for a Freedom From Bulk bill next........
Oh and please just send the guns and money and keep the lawyers to yourselves.
-kBob
One brand was called "Enforcer" and the type was generally referred to as that on civy street
Can't imagine a field cut down carbine was any worse recoil wise. Notice that most are just cut down standard Carbine stocks whittled into a nice shape. I must admit I rather like the M1A1 with the shortened barrel, one would have to do so relief work inside the stock to allow for the selector if an M2 were used in this mod
In that collage starting on the upper left, notice that carbine has a full length barrel and the stock appears to be the Plainfield Para Stock from a civilian gun. It had a wire stock much like the M3A1 grease gun that collapsed into those humps along the sides of the Pistol gripped stock.
The picture of the Carbine from Patty Hurst and the SLA is of an "MP40" or folding AK type also of civilian make. Federal made a version of this stock that had three legs rather than the two seen here that was some what more stable but I think those three legged (Two on one side and one on the other, automatically turned butt plate correctly) ones came out after the war.
These sawed off carbines get beat up by folks......A number of Police in the 1968 riot season had them and the press identified them as submachine guns and an indication of how evil the cops were. Even Warren Zevon was appearently confused by them as in Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner (talking about the man) he sings "Patty Hurst heard the burst of Roland's Thompson gun and bought it." This appearently in reference to the famous photo of Ms. Hurst holding the gun pictured above.
As a kid in the 60's I shot one of the Enforcers and rather liked it for funsies but recognized that the ability to shoot a PGO gun should be immediately followed up with the ability to open a folding stock and get serious. I had a GI M1 carbine from age 14 so knew what they could do and the PGO model could only do that up real close. Beyound 7 to 10 yards I wanted my full stock.
On the other hand something like the cut down Carbine in the M1A1 stock or even the "Schmisser" stock (I know but folks called MP38/40's that) was very attractive and I don't think the phrase Personal Defense Weapon (did Jane's come up with that) had even been thought of yet. I mean a full sized M1/2 weighs but 5.5 pounds empty and here ya go lopping half a foot off the barrel and a good bit of walnut off the butt and it sure is a handy size.......viola ....PDW.
Maybe if the Hearing Protection Act goes through we should lobby for a Freedom From Bulk bill next........
Oh and please just send the guns and money and keep the lawyers to yourselves.
-kBob
kBob
Member
OMG!
I got totally away from revolvers with that last one! Just to get back, sort of a couple of additional comments.
First a "why 1958 cops liked Enforcers. Most US Cops in 1968 were issued or had to buy out of pocket a six shot four to six inch .38 Special Revolver and were issued 158 grain Round Nose Lead ammo which generally had a velocity of 810 to 850 fps at the muzzle. A handy 15 to 30 shot semi auto firing 110 grain bullets well beyond supersonic seemed like a bit of a step up and both Winchester and Remington offered jacketed soft points and one or the other even offered such with a teny tiny hollowpoint.
There ....revolver......and.....
Second. The whole point of the suppressed ammo program and gun to shoot it was to not blind deafen and concuss the tunnel rat. The ammo did not lend itself to autos , so a revolver and an big honking one at that was called for. These little carbines tend to have a good bit of flash and bark so not likely a good thing in a tunnel.
There....linked to board area and specific topic.
-kBob
I got totally away from revolvers with that last one! Just to get back, sort of a couple of additional comments.
First a "why 1958 cops liked Enforcers. Most US Cops in 1968 were issued or had to buy out of pocket a six shot four to six inch .38 Special Revolver and were issued 158 grain Round Nose Lead ammo which generally had a velocity of 810 to 850 fps at the muzzle. A handy 15 to 30 shot semi auto firing 110 grain bullets well beyond supersonic seemed like a bit of a step up and both Winchester and Remington offered jacketed soft points and one or the other even offered such with a teny tiny hollowpoint.
There ....revolver......and.....
Second. The whole point of the suppressed ammo program and gun to shoot it was to not blind deafen and concuss the tunnel rat. The ammo did not lend itself to autos , so a revolver and an big honking one at that was called for. These little carbines tend to have a good bit of flash and bark so not likely a good thing in a tunnel.
There....linked to board area and specific topic.
-kBob
Aikibiker
Member
The Russians had a similar piston cartridge fired out of a semiauto pistol they used in Afghanistan. Soldier of Fortune magazine got hold of one.
Someone decided to make some similar ammo in the US (for 12 ga shotguns I think) and the the .gov decided each individual round counted as a silencer and would need a $200 tax stamp.
Someone decided to make some similar ammo in the US (for 12 ga shotguns I think) and the the .gov decided each individual round counted as a silencer and would need a $200 tax stamp.
Aikibiker
Member
If I had to be a tunnel rat I think I would want something like a Steyr TMP or Micro-Uzi with folding stock, a light/LASER combo, 6 inch or less suppressor, and 147 gr subsonic rounds preferably in a bonded hollow point.
And a ballistic shield about the size of a large SAPI plate to hide behind as I crawled along, because no way you could wear armor.
And a ballistic shield about the size of a large SAPI plate to hide behind as I crawled along, because no way you could wear armor.
kBob
Member
But in 1969 the closest you might have come was taking off your M1967 soft armor, zipping it up and pushing the wad in front of you or the back plate of a pilots Chicken vest if he wasn't sitting on it......instead of your bare hand feeling for trip wires and such......and an M45 "Swedish K" pea soup green in color and with a long old suppressor in place of the barrel and barrel jacket.
I guess if you had access to a SEAL group you could have substituted a S&W M39 Modified to Hush Puppy specs with 130.1 grain subsonic ammo that came with the internals replacement.
Toward the end there was actually a system designed to force CS or CN through the tunnels that showed up in the Chemical Weapons manual. I suppose DM in smoke grenade form might have been substituted. That was what the press called "Pepper Gas" when used in riot control and no relation to modern pepper sprays. ( CS to make you gasp and DM to make you hurl worked VERY well at clearing unprotected folks from streets) Colored smoke could be added to help identify alternate exits or ventilation. Despite the articles of war there were appearently instances of tunnels being fumigated with Methyl Bromide.....to control the rats and venomous snakes, of course..... before searching.
-kBob
-kBob
I guess if you had access to a SEAL group you could have substituted a S&W M39 Modified to Hush Puppy specs with 130.1 grain subsonic ammo that came with the internals replacement.
Toward the end there was actually a system designed to force CS or CN through the tunnels that showed up in the Chemical Weapons manual. I suppose DM in smoke grenade form might have been substituted. That was what the press called "Pepper Gas" when used in riot control and no relation to modern pepper sprays. ( CS to make you gasp and DM to make you hurl worked VERY well at clearing unprotected folks from streets) Colored smoke could be added to help identify alternate exits or ventilation. Despite the articles of war there were appearently instances of tunnels being fumigated with Methyl Bromide.....to control the rats and venomous snakes, of course..... before searching.
-kBob
-kBob
I'm usually the one who gets to "go down the hole" here,
because all the other guys are squeamish about snakes, spiders,
claustrophobia, and such. Now I didn't serve in Vietnam, and God
Bless all those who did, (Navy, for me.) but if I were going into
one of those tunnel complexes, I'd want a 1911A1.
Those carbine cut-downs look great, but my time in tight spaces
has taught me to be very leery of anything which you cannot
use single-handed.
because all the other guys are squeamish about snakes, spiders,
claustrophobia, and such. Now I didn't serve in Vietnam, and God
Bless all those who did, (Navy, for me.) but if I were going into
one of those tunnel complexes, I'd want a 1911A1.
Those carbine cut-downs look great, but my time in tight spaces
has taught me to be very leery of anything which you cannot
use single-handed.
PBR Streetgang
Member
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2011
- Messages
- 413
One of my neighbors where I grew up was a tunnel rat in Viet Nam.He didn't talk much about it ,he did relate he carried a angle flashlight and a 1911 most times .
I will say he was never the same when he returned.
I read an article where some S&W model 10s were tested where they closed the cylinder gap tighter to catch the gasses when used with a supressor but after a few rounds fired it would jam from lead/copper unburnt powder spatter in the gap..........
on the shortened M1/M2 carbines, Plainfield made a commerical version of that called an "Enforcer" it was considered a pistol in the civilian market for the short time it was in the civilian market
I will say he was never the same when he returned.
I read an article where some S&W model 10s were tested where they closed the cylinder gap tighter to catch the gasses when used with a supressor but after a few rounds fired it would jam from lead/copper unburnt powder spatter in the gap..........
on the shortened M1/M2 carbines, Plainfield made a commerical version of that called an "Enforcer" it was considered a pistol in the civilian market for the short time it was in the civilian market
Of the M2's shown the one with the fellow holding it by the forend is the one. Never knew such modifications were as common as it seemed to be. Then again GI's have been modifying firearms to better suit their needs since they first began using them.
Gordon
Member
The Early Plainfields were the best of the Enforcers, but still I fooled with them too much in the 80s before coming to reality and the CAR 
KBob nailed it here." Federal made a version of this stock that had three legs rather than the two seen here that was some what more stable but I think those three legged (Two on one side and one on the other, automatically turned butt plate correctly) ones came out after the war." The federal Ordinance under folder were indeed the best and I bought, drum roll, one marked "Bianchi " in the earlier 80s I think and put it on an Inland that I sold 20 years ago and kept my nice old Winchester red boy . Being a intelligence spook in my 2nd tour in 1970 I saw tons of tunnel complexes and all the trick stuff supposed to help. I allways was too big to do the crawling my self, but read the doc,s ect recovered. We then would blow them, a hard task with just a realitively small amount of C4 on hand, so we did the entrances and left booby traps in the middle
KBob nailed it here." Federal made a version of this stock that had three legs rather than the two seen here that was some what more stable but I think those three legged (Two on one side and one on the other, automatically turned butt plate correctly) ones came out after the war." The federal Ordinance under folder were indeed the best and I bought, drum roll, one marked "Bianchi " in the earlier 80s I think and put it on an Inland that I sold 20 years ago and kept my nice old Winchester red boy . Being a intelligence spook in my 2nd tour in 1970 I saw tons of tunnel complexes and all the trick stuff supposed to help. I allways was too big to do the crawling my self, but read the doc,s ect recovered. We then would blow them, a hard task with just a realitively small amount of C4 on hand, so we did the entrances and left booby traps in the middle Vern Humphrey
Member
In 1966, I was an adviser to 4/48 ARVN Infantry, and made a dumb mistake. We found some tunnels, and I was trying to persuade the battalion commander to search them.
"No! Too dangerous!"
"But Dai Ui, the Americans do it all the time."
"You're an American."
The only thing I ever found was a dead frog and a live snake.
"No! Too dangerous!"
"But Dai Ui, the Americans do it all the time."
"You're an American."
The only thing I ever found was a dead frog and a live snake.
I beg to differ with the common opinion a revolver cannot be suppressed ! Back in the 50s I actually saw them used ( by cops off duty who had taken them from mobsters
Which takes us back to the S&W Hush Puppy revolvers. There was almost no barrel/cylinder gap, so the suppressor worked pretty well - however the fouling on the cylinder face would tie up the gun after a very few rounds.
Gordon
Member
Hush Puppy was a modified S&W model 39 9mm semi, had a slide lock which was deemed necessary in those days. YES I got to handle , but not shoot one. They were Navy (SEAL) issue and I was Army, so ya know....
- Status
