springwalk
Member
Be honest, do you really prefer plastic over steel? Sure, your plastic is a little lighter, but is that worth the sacrifice of durability and precision?
Tupperware(plastic) vs steel (metal)
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deadduck357
Member
My PPS is as accurate as my P239's and almost as accurate as my P7's.
deadduck357
Member
Being honest I carry the PPS 8 months of the year, the other 4 (winter) is usually my 9mm P239 (live in Tx).
springwalk
Member
HK 23 is a freak on steroids with a 6" barrel. I hope it does better than most. I bet my Sig P220 Combat w/5" barrel shoots better than the average HK 23
You'd lose that bet. There's a reason SDV Teams told NSWC to screw off when they were ordered to turn in their MK23's for P226's.HK 23 is a freak on steroids with a 6" barrel. I hope it does better than most. I bet my Sig P220 Combat w/5" barrel shoots better than the average HK 23
deadduck357
Member
Oil.
Dnaltrop
Member
I like plastic for my CCW as my small children have mastered the art of Instant-penetration when spilling beverages on me. (or peeing... Diapers are designed to fail when babies are held above holsters)
I really do prefer metal. I just would feel bad pouring Milkshakes or juice through the guts of something with more aesthetic appeal. I'll carry my M&P till the youngest is in grade school. ^^
I really do prefer metal. I just would feel bad pouring Milkshakes or juice through the guts of something with more aesthetic appeal. I'll carry my M&P till the youngest is in grade school. ^^
BlindJustice
Member
Uh, you mean polymer versus Forged or cast steel?
No contest Forged steel be it semi-auto or revolvers
Period end of story
Randall
No contest Forged steel be it semi-auto or revolvers
Period end of story
Randall
....and I'll bet my G19 can withstand more abuse than your P220.
With the current age polymers durability is something that can surely be noted. The Glock series pistols being the prime example. The idiosyncrasies of a polymer firearm as compared to an all steel or alloy weapon tend to become overlooked.
Now granted while my Glock series pistols may endure far beyond Mr. Springwalk's Combat 220, his weapon and design tends to be more accurate.
I personally feel the accuracy debate has to do more with tolerances, manufacturing, and design than anything. Regardless, If you're worried that a polymer pistol will not withstand abuse then please rest assured that not only mine, but also the majority of police and PSD contractors have proven the polymer gun as a serious contender.
With the current age polymers durability is something that can surely be noted. The Glock series pistols being the prime example. The idiosyncrasies of a polymer firearm as compared to an all steel or alloy weapon tend to become overlooked.
Now granted while my Glock series pistols may endure far beyond Mr. Springwalk's Combat 220, his weapon and design tends to be more accurate.
I personally feel the accuracy debate has to do more with tolerances, manufacturing, and design than anything. Regardless, If you're worried that a polymer pistol will not withstand abuse then please rest assured that not only mine, but also the majority of police and PSD contractors have proven the polymer gun as a serious contender.
HK-Freak said:
Come on now ... that photo is misleading because the SIG frame is aluminum and aluminum oxide is white, not reddish brown. What you're showing there is rust from a steel magazine that corroded. If you're going to make a point, at least assume that your audience has half a brain!!
It's still RUST and it can still DAMAGE the gun, regardless of where it originated.
The only people who think that polymer is inferior to steel are old school shooters in their 70's who've never taken a chemistry class and have no idea how strong polymer is.
Yes, I prefer steel to polymer. But the simple fact is polymer framed pistols have a longer life. Not theory, well tested fact. Steel fatigues while polymer flexes. Steel rusts and pits while plastics are likely to be environmental hazards for centuries to come.
Aluminum alloys are really the least durable. They offer lightness, but not as much as polymers, while having less durability than steel. Most Al alloy frames have an average life expectancy (there are always exceptions) of 25,000-30,000 rounds. ATF dropped their Sigs because they were replacing them every 6-7 years due to frame cracks. After testing they are adopting Glocks and M&Ps and many federal LE agencies will do follow-on contracts.
For those of us who grew up with the 1911, Browning HP and similar pistols, steel guns will always feel like 'real' guns. To those who are coming of age in the era of composite materials, polymers are the 21st century and steel is old tech.
There nothing wrong with all steel guns, but this whole 'steel is more durable' argument needs to die. The facts don't support the contention. Wishing doesn't make it so.
Aluminum alloys are really the least durable. They offer lightness, but not as much as polymers, while having less durability than steel. Most Al alloy frames have an average life expectancy (there are always exceptions) of 25,000-30,000 rounds. ATF dropped their Sigs because they were replacing them every 6-7 years due to frame cracks. After testing they are adopting Glocks and M&Ps and many federal LE agencies will do follow-on contracts.
For those of us who grew up with the 1911, Browning HP and similar pistols, steel guns will always feel like 'real' guns. To those who are coming of age in the era of composite materials, polymers are the 21st century and steel is old tech.
There nothing wrong with all steel guns, but this whole 'steel is more durable' argument needs to die. The facts don't support the contention. Wishing doesn't make it so.
AKPastor
Member
I prefer metal - but its just a preference.
springwalk
Member
resting on the decision of dopey budget minded cop gets you a budget minded pistol with high capacity, glock. I'd never take stock in what you local cop department embraces. They were better off with a Clint Eastwood 6 shooter. I'll take accuracy over capacity any day.
.springwalk
Member
steel is and always will be superior to plastic. Plastic is nothing more than a justification to cheapskates
Plastic is nothing more than a justification to cheapskatesPlease define what you mean by superior.
Do this with your all steel gun: http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90
Note that this is one of many durability tests. HK, and SA have also done some testes with their polymer guns. Please point to any similar torture test of an all steel auto. Just one will do.
I like steel myself, and carry an all steel CZ these days. But I am realistic enough to recognize that in almost all applications polymer framed guns come out ahead.
Accuracy is another matter. But then no one has really brought out a polymer framed gun aimed directly at the target market so it's arguable whether superiority of accuracy is even dependent on material of the frame. And both polymer framed and steel framed autos use steel for the slide, barrel, hammer or striker, sear, etc.
And of course it is often desirable to have more weight in a target gun. Steel frames win that one.
Do this with your all steel gun: http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90
Note that this is one of many durability tests. HK, and SA have also done some testes with their polymer guns. Please point to any similar torture test of an all steel auto. Just one will do.
I like steel myself, and carry an all steel CZ these days. But I am realistic enough to recognize that in almost all applications polymer framed guns come out ahead.
Accuracy is another matter. But then no one has really brought out a polymer framed gun aimed directly at the target market so it's arguable whether superiority of accuracy is even dependent on material of the frame. And both polymer framed and steel framed autos use steel for the slide, barrel, hammer or striker, sear, etc.
And of course it is often desirable to have more weight in a target gun. Steel frames win that one.
1. The testing was carried out by ATF, not the local cops.
2. The standard for testing were scientific and rigorous. The details can be found here: https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...13dfefab943e194e68e4a6e23d2&tab=core&_cview=1
For the TL;DR crowd, from S&W press release: The evaluation consisted of a multiple- agent, live-fire assessment of 5,000 rounds. Additionally, the pistols were fired 15,000 rounds during the endurance phase of the test, for a total of 20,000 rounds each. The pistols were further subjected to an environmental exposure test and a post-endurance evaluation
With regard to reliability ...the agents' rating sheets, a record was kept of any stoppages or malfunctions that occurred during the live fire testing.[3] These records show that ATF's agents recorded 58 stoppages with Sig Sauer's full-size and compact pistols, 13 of which were considered to be gun-induced and 45 shooter-induced.[4] Id., Tab 2, Competitive Range Determination, at 3.[5] In contrast, the agents recorded a total of 16 shooter‑induced stoppages for Smith & Wesson's guns and 7 shooter-induced stoppages for Glock's guns. There were no gun-induced stoppages recorded for the Smith & Wesson or Glock guns.
Other interesting reading here, particularly with the failure of the Sig provided handguns: http://www.gao.gov/decisions/bidpro/4023393.htm
In particular Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III. In this regard, Sig Sauer argues that reliability was only one of a number of elements to be considered in the live-fire assessment, and notes that reliability was not identified as having any more importance than the other elements.[11] We disagree.
I'll take the results of systematic and thorough testing over the unsupported opinion of someone on a gun board any day.
Dudemeister
Member
I can appreciate both. I have a couple of Walthers, but I also have a few Colts, Browning and SAA, etc. I can appreciate the design and reliability of a Glock or a Walther, but some guns are also works of art.
When is the last time you saw a beautifully engraved plastic frame?
When is the last time you saw a beautifully engraved plastic frame?
Agree 100%
The Polymer framed gun is like the reliable jeep. Not pretty but always starts and gets you where you need to go. If I could only have one handgun and I knew it needed to last for a lifetime, I'd pick something like G19.
Fortunately, I don't have to make that choice and have a large assortment to choose from. And strapping on blued steel and wood is as much fashion statement as personal protection (admit it).
The Polymer framed gun is like the reliable jeep. Not pretty but always starts and gets you where you need to go. If I could only have one handgun and I knew it needed to last for a lifetime, I'd pick something like G19.
Fortunately, I don't have to make that choice and have a large assortment to choose from. And strapping on blued steel and wood is as much fashion statement as personal protection (admit it).
Dudemeister
Member
I admit itAgree 100%
The Polymer framed gun is like the reliable jeep. Not pretty but always starts and gets you where you need to go. If I could only have one handgun and I knew it needed to last for a lifetime, I'd pick something like G19.
Fortunately, I don't have to make that choice and have a large assortment to choose from. And strapping on blued steel and wood is as much fashion statement as personal protection (admit it).
Let's face it. One of the first things we do when we buy a gun is look for ways to dress it up. Fancy grips, upgraded hammers, triggers, slides, color case hardened or stainless steel parts, etc.
I mean what cool grips choices do we have for a Glock?
sansone
Member
blue steel for me.. but I AM a geezer
That is certainly one area where steel still rules. With all the polymer framed guns, you basically get what they give you. You can tart them up a bit, but nothing like you can with a more traditional handgun.
I've been eying some cocobolo grips for my CZ, maybe a flat SA trigger and match hammer. Possibly recontour the trigger guard and hard chrome the frame.
I've swapped out a number of parts on my G23 (trigger, disconnector, etc) but it still basically looks just like any other Glock.
I've been eying some cocobolo grips for my CZ, maybe a flat SA trigger and match hammer. Possibly recontour the trigger guard and hard chrome the frame.
I've swapped out a number of parts on my G23 (trigger, disconnector, etc) but it still basically looks just like any other Glock.
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