Turned away from celebration in a public park because of OC

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CPerdue

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Greetings all. I'd like to report that I was turned away from the fireworks, concert, etc. in Roanoke, Va. this evening because I was OC.

The event was on public land (a city park), but sponsored by the Landmark corporation (owns The Roanoke Times) in cooperation with the city. The Roanoke Police were very polite, cordial even, but firm in that my weapon was unwelcome. Note that weapons were not among the list of "leave at home" items listed here here , but that is incidental.

The fundamental point in question: When a private entity rents public property, does the leasee bring along their own private property rights or do only the rights of the property owner confer?

Apparently I bothered two Commonwealth's Attorneys on their day off, yet nobody was able to either name a statute or cite a case law which answered this. We reached an impasse where no more information was forthcoming, yet if I proceeded I would be charged with trespassing. I did get a report number and give my contact info to a very helpful and patient Roanoke Police Sgt., but I doubt any further information will be volunteered.

So now what? Does anyone have an idea about how to push this further?

A second question that came up: One of the officers believed that some of the preempted city statutes may have been resurrected somehow. He was thinking of courthouses and the like, and also the k-12 school prohibition (since we were standing on the grounds of a college campus). I think he was just confused, and these were never preempted anyway - have there been any new local ordnances?

Thanks all,

Clint
 
Yeah its a sorry thing but public opinion (or those thinking they are speaking for everyone else is more usual) does not accept the use of firearms in plain sight as it is deemed somehow disturbing or some BS. :(

As far as your specific situation... I think a college campus is considered federal property and thus they probably have a law that prohibits firearms on campus. I know that was the rule (Federal Law I believe if its a public campus) where I went as you had to check them in with campus police department within upon coming on campus.
 
Um, the campus was not really an issue. They are NOT "Federal property", and each can set its own rules. In Va., non-students/faculty are free to carry as they wish no matter what the school thinks. K-12 is a different matter. Still not Federal, but a State matter. Here we can have a concealed weapon in our cars as we pick-up/drop-off but that is all. I think OR allows CC anywhere, other places crucify you.
 
It was suggested that...."I think a college campus is considered federal property ..."

Nope....not at all. Whether carry on a campus is allowed depends first on State Law (if it is prohibited per se) or if the State Law allows the campus to "post". Public school campus areas are not federal property.
 
Nope....not at all. Whether carry on a campus is allowed depends first on State Law (if it is prohibited per se) or if the State Law allows the campus to "post". Public school campus areas are not federal property.
Click to expand...

Maybe, but all the ones that I have been to have been Federally Funded in one way or another and are subject to Federal Law. If you say it is MN State University or University of MN then yeah I would have to argue that it is Federally funded. But I am trying to help speculate exactly why the officer of the law would have jurisdiction to tell you to go home b/c you are lawfully carrying a sidearm... :D
 
If a private party rented the space, then I would think they could make whatever restrictions they wanted on you.
Its their space (during the rented period), so you have to play by their rules. You obey their rules out of common courtesy. I am not sure what the applicable laws would be.

Would you go to someone's house and open carry a gun if you knew that person didn't want guns in their home?
 
Does anyone have an idea about how to push this further?
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Sponsoring an event is not the same as renting property, so the private property rights of renters may not apply here. A lawyer will have to look at the arrangement between the sponsor and the city to determine if private property rights apply.

If not, unless there is a local ordinance prohibiting guns in the park, they had no right to prohibit OC. If you're serious about pursuing it, hire a lawyer and sue the city and the sponsor for violating your civil rights.
 
If some one rents public property though, how does that justify tossing out protected rights?

I mean, I can't rent the VFW and if some people come in make them slaves.

Protected right or not? Molon Labe.
 
Ignorance of the Law

I've often wondered, when I hear of LEOs enforcing laws that turn out not to exist, (which may or may not be the case here, but seems so) why in court they wouldn't be liable for some kind of damage. Ignorance of the law, as we hear all the time, is NO excuse.

Glad everything turned out as well as it did.
 
Okay first off the only college campuses that are federal property are the service academies.

Second the fed has no control whatsoever of what goes on at any campus unless the college has given them a building to work out of or they have some kind of special agreement with the school.

Third if the property was ''rented'' then whoever rented can make open carry people prohbited from the rented land in the State of Virginia. The person open carrying can be subject to arrest for tresspassing rules.

Fourth no sign needs to be posted the leasor needs only to inform the person and they xan do so through the police if they want.

If the property was not ''rented'' then the rules are different.
 
What can you do? Right away, contact VCDL http://www.vcdl.org/static/index.html will get you the proper email addresses for them.

The next thing you will need to do is gather information on just how The Roanoke Times was associated with the event. That probably can be gotten from Parks & Recs. A FOIA request could even get you a copy of whatever documents were signed between P&R and the paper.

Sounds like you got the run around. If so, an organization like VCDL is great to have to turn to.

stay safe.

skidmark
 
I think you typically sue for damages. Like the administrative law judge that sued the dry cleaners for 50 million dollars for losing his pants. What were your damages? You missed the party?
 
You- ''Your honor I missed the fireworks amd the kids are now emotionally scarres. I will need at least $30 million for counseling. I was also very embarrassed by the police''

Judge- ''Why did you not watch them from across the street?''

You- ''Ummm they would not have been as pretty...''

- And good luck with that.
 
I think you typically sue for damages. Like the administrative law judge that sued the dry cleaners for 50 million dollars for losing his pants. What were your damages? You missed the party?
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Respectfully, had an African-American been turned away because of his race, do you think he shouldn't sue because there were no tangible damages?

both civil rights, both should be fought for in court.

my opinion, anyway.
 
That's why I don't OC. I CCW (legally) just to avoid the pandamonia. Besides, if they don't sell booze or charge admission, why couldn't you CCW and avoid all the negative attention? I know, I know, it's a fundamental right, but if you're asked to leave (albeit ignorance) and don't do it, how free are you in a jail cell!

I agree with you. On principle, the cops should know the laws if they are going to enforce the laws, but whataya gonna do!
 
The fundamental point in question: When a private entity rents public property, does the leasee bring along their own private property rights or do only the rights of the property owner confer?
Click to expand...
Slightly OT, but there should be no such thing as "public" property. It creates an endless series of problems with no non-coercive solution: it's supposedly "mine," as well as "yours," but that means there's no solution except to duke it out when I want one thing on "my" property, and you want the opposite on "yours."

--Len.
 
Yep - contact Philip at VCDL - he eats this stuff for breakfast...especially with the Roanoake Times involved. Can't wait for the next VCDL update :evil:
 
Public/city park

I don't know about VA or Roanoke but many city/state parks prohibit firearms in general. Does this park normally allow carry?
 
Damages? Only to essential liberty. Frankly, this seemed like a great opportunity to push the issue when it came up with minimal risk.

I truly am of two minds about property rights in say, a private parking lot outside your place of employment. This however is public land. No one should be able to infringe by one jot or tittle the public's rights in public places without due process of law. If there has been no such due process, get out of my way.

I did send my post to VCDL. I've also requested a copy of the report from the police dept. and been told, "no, not without a subpoena." Sounds like BS, I'm searching for FOIA request instructions (knew I should have saved that link ...). I also have a call in to the parks super to get a copy of the lease in case it matters.

Virginia state parks only allow CC with permit. City and other places are OC or CC. All local ordnances are null and void (or at least unenforceable) due to preemption since 2005.

And for the record, I'm Ordinarily Confused.

C.
 
I am also real curious. If the property was not ''rented or leased'' than the city is not allowed to make preemptive rules. You wouldn't win any money in a law suit but you might win a court order which would be much more valuable.
 
CPerdue,

There was a Police Report taken, was an incident report taken in?
If so, you have the rights to HAVE that information. Hopefully you got the names of the officers that refused entry.

The Police HAVE to send it to you unless it meets one of the 12 criteria for FOIA exemption.

Basically, they have 5 business days to respond by giving you a request, or they can request a 7 day extension. After that, it's up to you to sue them or not.

Here's the Open Government Consortium of VA, that includes a FOIA letter generator with all of the necessary legalese.

http://opengovva.org/

VA regulations: http://www.opengovva.org/content/view/453/117/

Things you should ask for: Any and all communication and copies of contracts between the City of Roanoke and the company that hosted the party.
Copies of statutes and legal documents that forbid your right to Open Carry in Public Parks (this is a setup question as it's perfecly legal to do so in VA).
Copies of Police Reports, transcripts of communication between officers and HQ, as well as electronically recorded conversations for those same things.

I helped get a lot of the FOIA information on Christian Trejbal during the Roanoke Times Debacle. FOIA is your friend, and can be used well. You might be asked to pay for some of this material, limited to 200 bucks I think, but most of these departments will do this for free, or for paltry amounts.
 
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