Turning a hinged floor plate into a "faux blind mag"

[DannyLandrum]

OK, I used to despise only detachables - now I've added hinged floorplates to the hate list, as I just bought one that has a defective latch, making it just *barely* catch, and if you breath on it, it flies open. I think the military turnbolts got it right back 120 years ago - blind mags are the only way to fly for any serious field use. But that's an argument for another day - this is just a "how to" question thread.

So I'm probably going to just send it in to get fixed (it's a T/C Icon) at Outdoor Brands (S&W / T-C). It needs either a "wider" catch, and/or a longer plate (in the catching area), and/ or a stronger spring, none of which I can accomplish myself.

But, *IF* I were to just turn it into a blind mag of sorts by sealing the floorplate permanently, rather than send it in, my questions become:

1. Primarily, what are the key drawbacks of doing so? I'm assuming number 1 on this list is "your gonna have a problem replacing the mag spring when it wears out, with no way to slide the spring from its ear catches" - which then leads to the question of "would it somehow be possible to remove it from the dis-attached floorplate despite the floorplate being fused shut" - looking at it, the answer seems to be "no", although I could be missing something. Any other major drawbacks?

2. In light of question #1, particularly how to later replace a worn spring, what method would you use to fuse it - several options: welding, superglue, epoxy / JB Weld, etc. I'm liking the superglue option, as then acetone application will later undo it, but I think I might hate the aesthetics of the finished product of this, relative to a welded solution. I want it so solid that there is zero chance of it ever coming open while hunting.

Note that this rifle has a safety that allows cycling while on safe, so it's a very easy matter to unload this safely via cycling. Floor plate - appendix: Useless but causes me grief.

And yes this is a demonstrable, VERY real problem - not just perceived. Last season I had a floor plate come open (just from carry) and drop 4 of my 5 rounds after I'd climbed almost 2K vertical feet and maybe 4 horizontal miles from the pickup. I had only one round plus luckily 2 more in the pocket. But frankly, even with 3 rounds, I felt ill-prepared for a trophy bull of a lifetime. I believe in one-shot hits, but I also believe in the liberal application of anchoring shots for game that may run off a cliff, etc.

Oops - I think I should have put this in "Gunsmithing" - can anyone move it for me? Thanks.

 

[chicharrones]

What is the bottom of the gun made of? Can it be drilled and tapped?

If so, how about drilling and tapping one or two holes so you could use something like button head capscrews to hold the floor plate shut?

Excuse my crude rendering below.

View attachment 781438 View attachment 781439

 

[DannyLandrum]

That second pic is indeed an Icon - are the red dots where the cap screws might go, you mean?

The plate itself is aluminum, but the frame is well, unknown. I thought it was aluminum but the more I touch it, the more I think it's a polymer of some sort. I doubt there's enough meat to tap it, but I'll check.

Thanks.

PS. I'm going to remove the torsion spring that is operating the latch and see if I can bend it backwards to make it stronger, then also polish the surface engagement areas to see if I can get a better result.

 

[chicharrones]

That second pic is indeed an Icon - are the red dots where the cap screws might go, you mean?

Yes, those red dots are just position indicators.

 

[chicharrones]

Another idea for the short term would be to put a small fender washer under the action screw in front of the trigger guard. Just big enough to put pressure on the floor plate latch.

Just a stop gap measure idea, if you had to be on a hunt asap.

 

[Skylerbone]

Never had one come open on me, I’d send it in.

 

[DannyLandrum]

Meh. I superglued it around the edges. It's ghetto but it will work - it ain't coming open now. I don't have time for a good fix right now. But I do want to use this one to hunt this fall so I wanted a decent quick fix.

 

[jmr40]

Having the floorplates welded shut used to be fairly common among DG guides. It doesn't happen often, but it can happen. I've had it happen a couple of times at the range and it was operator error both times. BUT, if it can't open, the operator can't mess it up.

My 1st rifle was a Remington 700 ADL with a blind magazine so I'm used to the idea. Other than a Kimber everything else currently has either a floorplate of DBM. On most of them I'd just as soon have a blind magazine as a floorplate, but there aren't many options.

I don't see the floorplate as a real advantage, it is just more expensive and heavier. It takes about 2 seconds longer to unload after the hunt. But a some of my rifles have enclosed bolts making it all but impossible to top load (Tikka and Ruger Predator). Those need a DBM. And to be honest, I'm finding that I like them better than I thought. No problems yet.

 

[Varminterror]

I put an extra power spring and welded extra length to the floor plate of my Ruger M77’s to make them less apt to pop open under recoil. This has never happened to me for 338wm and lower cartridges, never happened in my 375 H&H, but did happen to my .458 Lott, so I remedied the problem.

I wouldn’t cut off my arm to prevent breaking my wrist. I’d simply protect my wrist from getting broken.

 

[cdb1]

Meh. I superglued it around the edges. It's ghetto but it will work - it ain't coming open now.

I think ghetto is cool in a retro way sometimes, seriously I do. When I was a kid and my family went to the drive-in my mother would fix popcorn and put it in a big brown grocery sack. I was so embarrassed then, now I think it’s cool.

I prefer blind magazines and won’t own a DBM bolt action rifle. If I ever do a custom or semi-custom build it will have a blind magazine.

 

[DannyLandrum]

"BUT, if it can't open, the operator can't mess it up"

Oh, so you've met Mr. Murphy, too, huh? Funny how so many gunnies on this issue of too-sensitive mag releases have either never met him or pretend they haven't.

I should mention that I'm pleased with the aesthetics of the result (in addition to the function), as you cannot see any glue spilling out.

Adding material via a weld to the floor plate itself so that a longer purchase surface area exists would indeed by the best solution, but I ain't that skilled - can't see stuff that small any more. I'll cross my fingers that the T/C arm of S&W doesn't go out of business, so I can send it in later if I want to. Next December would be better timing, immediately after season. Right now, the snow is melting, so it's time to get to the range for load development for this one.

 

[Varminterror]

I’ve had 100 fold more rifle failures where I have dumped the mag/floorplate to solve a problem than I have ever had of my floorplate opening unintentionally.

Weld the doors shut on your car too, that way you won’t ever slam your hand in one.

 

[MCMXI]

There's no way I could enjoy a rifle if I had to superglue one part to another to get it to function properly. I would either make a new latch, modify the trapdoor, change the spring or do all three ... just as Varminterror mentioned. Changing the spring would be the quickest and easiest method and there are lots of small springs with different K values available from McMaster-Carr and similar. If the spring doesn't fix the problem you might need to modify the latch or the trapdoor, or both.

https://www.mcmaster.com/

The most obvious would be to contact S&W and get them to fix the issue ... but that's also been suggested already.

 

[DannyLandrum]

"Weld the doors shut on your car too, that way you won’t ever slam your hand in one."

Well, I don't have a problem with that in 48 years of riding in cars. Never done it. But if did, what you suggest would be on the table.

Your logic seems to be "I don't have this problem; therefore you must not either." I *DO* have a problem with this and have many times while hunting. Is it because I crawl on the ground, go through thick brush, go 2K vertical feet up rocky scrambles in a day, etc., etc, while others don't? Or is it because I hunt, period, while a lot of armchair people chiming in don't (as I suspect)? I don't know. What I DO know, however, with absolute certainly, is that this has been a speicific, identifiable problem for me over the years. I've lost detachable mags in the field - of course you'll never find them again. I *JUST* told you up above what happened to me just last season - did you not read it, or is your comprehension challenged? I will copy it here again, for your convenience:

"And yes this is a demonstrable, VERY real problem - not just perceived. Last season I had a floor plate come open (just from carry) and drop 4 of my 5 rounds after I'd climbed almost 2K vertical feet and maybe 4 horizontal miles from the pickup. I had only one round plus luckily 2 more in the pocket. But frankly, even with 3 rounds, I felt ill-prepared for a trophy bull of a lifetime. I believe in one-shot hits, but I also believe in the liberal application of anchoring shots for game that may run off a cliff, etc."

"There's no way I could enjoy a rifle if I had to superglue one part to another to get it to function properly. I would either make a new latch, modify the trapdoor, change the spring or do all three ... just as Varminterror mentioned. Changing the spring would be the quickest and easiest method and there are lots of small springs with different K values available from McMaster-Carr and similar. If the spring doesn't fix the problem you might need to modify the latch or the trapdoor, or both. "

Absolutely - agreed...in the long run. The "now solution" is what I've done to get on with life and it's a good one for the short term, for me. Can't afford a smith right now either, which is another reason. And I don't want to send it in because it's load development time. I pleaded with T/C yesterday to just let me send in the floorplate and trigger guard assembly by itself, but they insisted on having the whole rifle for some reason.

 

[Varminterror]

Maybe your comprehension is broken? It *HAS* been a problem for me, and many other shooters and hunters before you or I, and the fix is simple.

I put an extra power spring and welded extra length to the floor plate of my Ruger M77’s to make them less apt to pop open under recoil. This has never happened to me for 338wm and lower cartridges, never happened in my 375 H&H, but did happen to my .458 Lott, so I remedied the problem.

Why ask for advice or help if you were already fixated on your solution?

 

[DannyLandrum]

There's nothing simple at all about welding a tiny piece onto a very thin part of the plate, then fabricating the shape down to a plane and smoothing it out, a couple of thousandths at a time, to where it catches, but only just, so it doesn't rattle. I'm am amateur smith, and that's very high on the complication scale, without any doubt. Besides, I *just* told you up above (there's that comprehension thing again) that my eyes aren't good enough to do it, even if it was simple, which is most certainly is not.

 

[DannyLandrum]

And no, it's not my comprehension that's in error here - it's your obfuscated writing, to wit: This first part of your sentence makes no sense:

"I’ve had 100 fold more rifle failures where I have dumped the mag/floorplate to solve a problem than [...]"

That makes zero sense, as to how your rifle can "fail" due to you having intentionally dumped rounds out by opening the floorplate. So please try again if you were intending to make a valid point.

 

[MCMXI]

Absolutely - agreed...in the long run. The "now solution" is what I've done to get on with life and it's a good one for the short term, for me. Can't afford a smith right now either, which is another reason. And I don't want to send it in because it's load development time. I pleaded with T/C yesterday to just let me send in the floorplate and trigger guard assembly by itself, but they insisted on having the whole rifle for some reason.

I get where you're at. A short term fix so that you can get on with what you need to do.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of that policy but it's very common. Sometimes it's a subtle way for firearms companies to avoid the issue altogether since many customers don't want to send the rifle back. Either the trapdoor/floorplate is in spec or it's not. They don't need the entire rifle to figure that out.

 

[Varminterror]

It's your rifle, but super glue wouldn't be my solution - I'd be interested to see how well it actually bonds to the metal and survives the shock of recoil.

Your comprehension again - quoting myself:

I’ve had 100 fold more rifle failures where I have dumped the mag/floorplate to solve a problem than I have ever had of my floorplate opening unintentionally.

Now paraphrasing myself: For some failures, opening the floorplate either solves the problem, renders the rifle more safe, or gives access to better solve the problem. These failures are more common than having the floorplate pop open unintentionally.

Further Explication of scenarios where opening the floorplate either solved the failure, or gave access to better solve the failure: Failure to extract (stuck case), I dump the mag and cycle the bolt a few times to see if I can pick up the round, and if not, I can run a rod down the barrel, without having extra live rounds in the mag. Same with a double feed, or a partial feed ("bolt over"), where a round may be partially stripped, but won't feed into the chamber, and instead of fighting the round back into the magazine, it's faster and easier just to drop the floorplate and start over. For a push feeders with small ports, there may not be any way to clear the magazine for a failure to extract except out of the bottom. I've had rifles come into my shop, fully loaded, because the owner couldn't render the mag or chamber empty - most often when someone was reloading and didn't properly size their brass, then jammed them in the chamber, but couldn't get the extractor to jump over the rim...

Not everyone wants a DBM or floorplate, but you own one. For me, I'd rather make it work right, rather than supergluing it shut - a non-permanent solution without any means of indicating when it has failed, leaving you vulnerable to the same failure as current.

There's nothing simple at all about welding a tiny piece onto a very thin part of the plate, then fabricating the shape down to a plane and smoothing it out, a couple of thousandths at a time, to where it catches, but only just, so it doesn't rattle. I'm am amateur smith, and that's very high on the complication scale, without any doubt. Besides, I *just* told you up above (there's that comprehension thing again) that my eyes aren't good enough to do it, even if it was simple, which is most certainly is not.

Tedious, sure, but not complicated or difficult. If I can do it - bad eyes and all - then anyone can. Fitting pawls for revolvers is a pretty common task on my bench, and it's far more exacting work than fitting a floorplate catch. This particular pawl, I didn't have my TIG set up at my new shop yet, so I paid $5 to a local welder to build the bead, so I didn't have to do any welding myself. The tip of the pawl was worn, and the replacement part from the OEM was too short, so I had to weld and reprofile. Took an afternoon, including the drive over to the welder's shop and back, and an hour or so BS'ing about this and that...

 

[30Cal]

I have one that pops open occasionally. Even when I do open it intentionally, I end up with 1 rd in my hand and 3 in the dirt.

So I put duct tape over it during hunting season. I should probably spend an hour and figure out how to fix it (Win M70), because tape+guns isn't really my style.

 

[cdb1]

If I had a rifle with a tiny ejection/loading port ala Rem 783, RAR, AXIS, then I guess I wouldn’t be partial to blind magazines. I don’t and the only reason I ever did would be because of financial issues, God forbid. I’m not putting down those rifles, the small ports are neither right nor wrong, I just can’t stand them.

 

[Varminterror]

Add one to your list: Big ports with one piece rails.

 

[ontarget]

I have one that pops open occasionally. Even when I do open it intentionally, I end up with 1 rd in my hand and 3 in the dirt.

So I put duct tape over it during hunting season. I should probably spend an hour and figure out how to fix it (Win M70), because tape+guns isn't really my style.

Just use camo duct tape. Then you can't see it so it wont cramp your style.

 

[Skylerbone]

I’d like to preface this with my belief that it should be sent back (as I previously stated). I also agree with Varminterror’s assessment for a relatively simple fix. Considering what smiths charge, I try to keep my ears open when one gives good advice freely. If neither of those work due to time constraints then a trip to the local spring shop (Standard Bearing Company is my local go-to) to get or have made a stronger spring.

For a simple fix, and it may require a small washer beneath the screwhead if it’s countersunk (can’t tell), I’d simply make a wedge from plastic (or metal if you prefer) and anchor it with the existing screw. Just a rectangle with a hole in it that prevents the catch from moving to the open position.

If and when you want it open, unscrew a few turns, pop the wedge up, and rotate 90 degrees. Nothing permanent or altering with the exception of needing to re-torque the screw (if action related). In a real pinch, if for some reason you really needed it opened, cut the plastic with a knife. My hillbilly thought fwiw.



Red area represents wedge. A simple chamber flag should be sturdy enough material.