Twist rate VS bullet selection

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I can't remember all the bullets that this one would blow apart. The ones I can remember off hand were hornady 50 gr sp bulk, midway dogtown 50 hp's, midsouth's house brand varmint hp's, hornady 52 grain match hp's, and maybe a couple others. I don't recall that V-max's ever came apart but they did tumble 1 of every 20 bullets as did all the others. Accuracy was about .75 moa. I did not have the tumbling issues with any bullets from 60-75 grains but accuracy wasn't really impressive, typically like .5" for 5 shot groups. This was a factory savage bvss. I sent the gun back and asked that they put a new barrel on it preferably in 1:12 if they could. They sent it back with no notes to indicate what they did and a 1:9 barrel. I went out to shoot it and the group size was the same and in 50 shots I had two tumble and one explode. So I assumed they sent it back without doing anything and I took it off and sold it on gun broker with an explanation of what had been done with the barrel and how it had been sent back to savage and would not shoot bullet less than 60 grains. The guy that won the auction emailed me the below,

"Does the paperwork from the factory come w/ the bbl? As I'm the smith that did the work, I think it would be cool to have."

(me back to him) "yeah you can have it. I will scrible out the serial number with a marker though. You mean you were the smith at Savage that shot it?"

"No I didn't shoot it, I have a shooter to do that for me, I just rebuilt the rifle, cherry-picked that barrel,etc. on that sheet I'm the S.P. above the first date, that is the date the rifle was completed. The second date is when it passed target and function. I want to build a .223 and that barrel is one of the best I've seen."
Thanks,
Steve

"oh I didn't even think anything was even done too it. It looked too me like you guys just shot it and sent it right back. It still shot 50-55 grain bullets the same (.75 MOA) so I assumed it was the same barrel. I was really pissed so I took it off and put a Criterion 1:12 on it. I am only using it for a varmint gun so I'm only really interested in shooting lighter bullets. Well now that I know that, the barrel actually only has about 50 rounds through it. I was really upset when I got the gun back and pretty much vowed to never buy another savage again. Thanks for putting my mind at eaze."


He works in the customer service department at Savage as a gunsmith and he had been the one that worked on my rifle. So long story short two 1:9 barrels in a row for me had the same issue. I replaced it with a CBI 1:12 and it now shoots 10 shot groups in about a dime size hole with 53 grain V-max.
 
I can't remember all the bullets that this one would blow apart. The ones I can remember off hand were hornady 50 gr sp bulk, midway dogtown 50 hp's, midsouth's house brand varmint hp's, hornady 52 grain match hp's, and maybe a couple others. I don't recall that V-max's ever came apart but they did tumble 1 of every 20 bullets as did all the others. Accuracy was about .75 moa. I did not have the tumbling issues with any bullets from 60-75 grains but accuracy wasn't really impressive, typically like .5" for 5 shot groups. This was a factory savage bvss. I sent the gun back and asked that they put a new barrel on it preferably in 1:12 if they could. They sent it back with no notes to indicate what they did and a 1:9 barrel. I went out to shoot it and the group size was the same and in 50 shots I had two tumble and one explode. So I assumed they sent it back without doing anything and I took it off and sold it on gun broker with an explanation of what had been done with the barrel and how it had been sent back to savage and would not shoot bullet less than 60 grains. The guy that won the auction emailed me the below,

"Does the paperwork from the factory come w/ the bbl? As I'm the smith that did the work, I think it would be cool to have."

(me back to him) "yeah you can have it. I will scrible out the serial number with a marker though. You mean you were the smith at Savage that shot it?"

"No I didn't shoot it, I have a shooter to do that for me, I just rebuilt the rifle, cherry-picked that barrel,etc. on that sheet I'm the S.P. above the first date, that is the date the rifle was completed. The second date is when it passed target and function. I want to build a .223 and that barrel is one of the best I've seen."
Thanks,
Steve

"oh I didn't even think anything was even done too it. It looked too me like you guys just shot it and sent it right back. It still shot 50-55 grain bullets the same (.75 MOA) so I assumed it was the same barrel. I was really pissed so I took it off and put a Criterion 1:12 on it. I am only using it for a varmint gun so I'm only really interested in shooting lighter bullets. Well now that I know that, the barrel actually only has about 50 rounds through it. I was really upset when I got the gun back and pretty much vowed to never buy another savage again. Thanks for putting my mind at eaze."


He works in the customer service department at Savage as a gunsmith and he had been the one that worked on my rifle. So long story short two 1:9 barrels in a row for me had the same issue. I replaced it with a CBI 1:12 and it now shoots 10 shot groups in about a dime size hole with 53 grain V-max.
Small world ain't it?
 
Been shooting 50 Vmax's, NBT's, and CT BST's out of 1:9" Savage BVSS's in 223rem, one for 9yrs, one for 7yrs. Never had one tumble, nor come apart.

Definitely something weird going on.
 
My dad has a savage VLP that he prairie dogs with in 1:9 223 and he told me one model of bullet he tried would puff as well but I don't remember what they were. Probably cheap crap like some of the bullets I was shooting. His shoots excellently with the factory barrel and most 50-55's and is totally load insensitive.
 
I have shot a bunch of 50, 52, 53, and 55 Gr bullets through 1 in 9 and 1 in 8 twists without issues. You really have to push the bullets hard to blow them up, even the very thin jacketed ones the makers warn us about. I forget what Speers limit on the 50 Gr TNT was, and of course it is spin rate, so it is a matter of twist and velocity together. They were definitely not recommended for top .22-250 velocities specifically, but some people do it without issues with a slow twist and reasonable velocity. A smooth match quality barrel helps as well. If you are having them come apart, assuming a good barrel, slow them down.
 
I assumed he was "rounding up" :D.

Exaggerating for affect in other words. Point remains the same though. :)
 
I should say I've loaded over a million of them. Shot about a quarter of them myself, customers have burned the rest in the rifles I built for them. Wasn't exaggerating on how many I have loaded, and can say for certain, there isn't more than a few thousand of those sitting in some cache somewhere - they were loaded to be shot, not to be stored for the zombie apocalypse. Made a living building 3 gun rifles for a while, never was any good competing, but shot a hell of a lot trying to get that way. Did load development services, building, and tuning. Hunted with the same bullet for many years before it started paying bills. Span it over ~25yrs and it doesn't seem as overwhelming. Lots and lots of barrels, lots and lots of customers. Shooting AR's was what I did for a living for a while.
 
The Hornady's do have a slightly different ogive than SMK's and are a little longer, but still should stabilize in a 1:9.

Don't get rid of them because you'll be sorry some day. But if you insist, send me a PM and I'll buy them from you!
Not sure how to pm......
 
Interesting thread. My experience with .223 Rem bullets and twist rates has always been with 1 in 12" twist bolt guns (26" Remington and 22" Weatherby Vanguard) and 1 in 8" AR's (24" Stag and 16" S&W original Sport with 5R barrel). I shot a lot of 40 gr through 55 gr bullets through the bolt guns without issue. They seemed to prefer the 40 and 50 gr bullets. The 1 in 8" AR's got more of the 55 gr bullets and some heavier bullets as well. I avoided the really thin jacketed bullets in the AR's (Hornady SX, Speer TNT) for fear of bullet destruction due to fast twist rate. Surprisingly, the 40 gr tipped bullets (Nosler Ballistic Tips, Hornady V-MAX and Z-MAX) shoot very well out of the AR's. I also avoided the heavier bullets in the 1 in 12" bolt guns, assuming the 69 gr bullets would but unstable and be tumbling at the target. At the range yesterday, I decided to try one of my 69 gr Nosler loads in the 26" 1 in 12" Remington just to see how inaccurate they would be. To my surprise, 5 shots at 100 yards grouped in less than .75 of an inch! Could this be attributed to the higher velocity provided by the 26" barrel allowing the longer bullet to stabilize? Any thoughts? That Remington 700 SPS Varmint shoots everything well, but I have never tried a bullet weighing more than 55 gr before, since "everyone knows you need at least a 1 in 9 twist for a 69 gr bullet in a .223".
 
Interesting thread. My experience with .223 Rem bullets and twist rates has always been with 1 in 12" twist bolt guns (26" Remington and 22" Weatherby Vanguard) and 1 in 8" AR's (24" Stag and 16" S&W original Sport with 5R barrel). I shot a lot of 40 gr through 55 gr bullets through the bolt guns without issue. They seemed to prefer the 40 and 50 gr bullets. The 1 in 8" AR's got more of the 55 gr bullets and some heavier bullets as well. I avoided the really thin jacketed bullets in the AR's (Hornady SX, Speer TNT) for fear of bullet destruction due to fast twist rate. Surprisingly, the 40 gr tipped bullets (Nosler Ballistic Tips, Hornady V-MAX and Z-MAX) shoot very well out of the AR's. I also avoided the heavier bullets in the 1 in 12" bolt guns, assuming the 69 gr bullets would but unstable and be tumbling at the target. At the range yesterday, I decided to try one of my 69 gr Nosler loads in the 26" 1 in 12" Remington just to see how inaccurate they would be. To my surprise, 5 shots at 100 yards grouped in less than .75 of an inch! Could this be attributed to the higher velocity provided by the 26" barrel allowing the longer bullet to stabilize? Any thoughts? That Remington 700 SPS Varmint shoots everything well, but I have never tried a bullet weighing more than 55 gr before, since "everyone knows you need at least a 1 in 9 twist for a 69 gr bullet in a .223".
I sold my leftover 68 gr to a member and just bought a ton of 55gr. My AR shoots 55gr perfectly. For whatever reason those 68 gr bthp were all over the place. But I do remember a member telling me that particular bullet would not stabilize with a 1:9 twist I'm forced to believe him LOL
 
Post #17 has a good picture of how long that particular 68 grain BTHP is.
 
I have noticed that my Hornady 55G FMJBT bullets are very accurate compared to the 68 grain BTHP. By accurate I mean I can group about the size of a softball at 100 yards. Keep in mind I'm using iron sights and Im a relatively new shooter so there's some operator error at Play. But with these 68 grain bullets I have noticed I have to adjust my windage quitea bit and the group is double in size. Twist rate on the AR is 1/9 . My question is, is there any data that could help me make better bullet selections in the future based on my rifle. Concentricity on both rounds is damn near perfect. .001 max. Of course I am assuming the twist rate is the problem with the inaccuracy on the 68g. Yes I'm using a recipe and I'm near the top of the charge but maybe there's something else I'm doing wrong. The only reason I would question the twist rate is because my Hornady book specifically says certain bullets do not stabilize with such and such twist rate. My particular twist rate is not mentioned but it got me thinking........... I'm ready for lesson number six. You guys know your stuff..... seating to the lands is not an option in this rifle the throat is way too long.....
 
Rule #1. Never crimp bullets loaded for accuracy.

A search will find some very interesting debates on the subject. No one in the accuracy games crimp bullets.
 
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